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In Reply to: RE: Digital amps posted by jimmycj on June 01, 2007 at 11:23:32
Unlike conventional amps, class D amps are not plug and play. I can make my class D amps sound dreadful, or sublime. I need only change wires, preamp, or source. That is why people's take on these amps widely vary.
Follow Ups:
"That is why people's take on these amps widely vary."
Maybe I've been spoiled, maybe I've been finicky. But I've yet to hear a digital amplifier that to me didn't diminish what I often call "information density." The natural attacks and decays of steel percussion is one thing digital amps just don't do right. Nor the ability to appreciate the tonal uniqueness of a Steinway versus a Bechstein. Nor the harmonic complexity of Marc Lifschey playing the oboe.....
The music just takes on a "generic" character through a digital amplifier.
The amps ,sounded great at first,but after months of listening,they just did not sound right,i tried different cables,once again the highs are not right,and frankly i,m not going to try 15 different sets of cable to get a band aid type of fix,highs are either there or they are not.Even the bass at first sounds good,but after extended listening,not like solid state.
"The natural attacks and decays of steel percussion is one thing digital amps just don't do right."horses for courses, the last time I listened to a 'SET' amplifier, this is one of the areas that it did NOT do right, the rig was overly agressive in the upper midrange/lower treble. However, notice I mentioned the 'rig' instead of just amplifier.
"Nor the ability to appreciate the tonal uniqueness of a Steinway versus a Bechstein."
I am pretty sure, you will need a rather poor pair of speakers not to be able to tell the difference between those two. After acquiring a relatively large collection acoustic recordings, it is safe to say that tonal quality is one of the easier things to identify, so much so that the ability to do it is taken for granted.
Music making the painting, recording it the photograph
I can prove just the opposite point. My amps (H2O Sigs) replace body with the texture forming the body. Every instrument from strings to horns exhibit correct timbre, and relative loudness. The attack and decay are unrivaled by even by the finest SET set ups.
It is in the way you implement my class D amp that make such perfection possible. They have little character of their own, other than being very very fast. If you feed them a great source they respond in kind.
I use a highly enhanced Lambda transport, and an equally improved AN DAC. Along with the preamp (Fire) made by the same builder my system has reached a degree of synergy I only dreamed of before.
The Apogee Scintilla is the perfect transducer to realize my system potential.
I am very happy you like yours too.
The problem with me is amps in that price bracket I need to hear before forking over $$$$..... (And it would take something REEEALLY extraordinary to knock off Don Allen's products.)
Meanwhile, the good part is you're happy with the product......
I have listened to a couple of them,one is Bel Canto,is there a chance you can reccomend interconnects and speaker cable that worked for you.I use mit speaker cable and right now i know it needs a little more break in time and also I am using signal cable for interconnect.After listening to the amps for a few months it just seems something is lacking,but at this point I'm not sure what it is or am I just over my honeymoon period with this type of amp,I listening to a Tandberg 3012 right now and am just finding it outstanding.Seem,s to have alot more presence,better defintion in the bass,lower bass and better highs.or am i just getting to digitals weaknesses.I have switched back and forth with the Tandberg and kepp finding thats what i'm liking,but i also want to give the digital some more chances also.
Hi Jim,
I've tried a few D-amps (not the Bel-Canto though), and I never felt comfortable. The only one that I could live with was the Tact Millenium MK I. That amp was, to my ears, the best of the lot. I hear they have a MK III iteration these days..
I don't think D-amps have reached their prime yet coz I feel good old fashioned tube amps and the nice SS ones are still the best (sonically at least).
Maybe in another 5-7 years the whole picture will change, and maybe not.
Just my 2 cents..:)
AP
# The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men # Jules Winnfield(Ezekiel 25:17)> Pulp Fiction <
Audio Pharaoh, If you only lived nearby.........I love tubes. I have a neighbor that uses $140,000 of the best. I can honestly say, I would never trade. My last amps before I went to class D were Pass Labs X-600 monos. I recently auditioned CODA's S5. No dice. Neither even close.
MIT is one of the worst wires for use with class D amps. It chokes the highs, and dulls the mids. Being heavily insulated, it also clouds the signal with capacitance leak. Get some nice cheap Speltz Anti-Cables, ICs and SCs. You will be astonished at the improvement.
I have had excellent results with Nordost Frey Interconnects (balanced) and speaker cables with ICEpower based amplification. Of course, matching with the appropriate speakers will also make a difference. My speakers (Focus FS-888) are a little bit warm through the lower midrange and this this character is a nice match with the Nordost wires.
Good! Speakers are important indeed. Synergy to personal preference is the name of the game.
The market was a very different when I hit the scene in the 2002 time-frame. When I set sail to venture into hi-fi waters, it became instantly clear that there was only so far one could go on a budget. I ended up with a vintage Carver amplifier that was built the same year I was born (1982). And so it was at the time; the old adage of “if you want a lot- you’re going to have to pay a lot” was echoed by every audiophile in every community I happened across. Unless you wore a member’s only jacket which celebrated the low power/efficient speaker approach – you were stuck with the often hunkering, heavy, hot, and economically wasteful amplifiers. The killer of it all is that if you either wanted to jam out or owned speakers with low impedance dips – things could get pricey very quick.
Then entered class D – a topology that has existed for nearly twenty years in the professional world that had finally crossed bounds into home audio territory – albeit in un-assuming form (notably the Griffin Power Wave and the Sonic Impact “T” battery powered amplifier). These outright *cheap* products caught many experienced ears by surprise, and consequently – word of these black magic pieces quickly reached far and wide to the corners of every audio circle. People all around were suddenly selling off their expensive and highly acclaimed audio toys in favor for these pieces that were never even built with the intent of delivering quality play-back! And the waves of product just kept on coming, in the form of inexpensive receivers (notably from JVC and Panasonic).
Naturally curious – I tried out a 30 wpc Teac amplifier which used the Tripath transistors – and absolutely loved what I heard. At the time, a few virtual stores were closing out the piece for only $99 bucks plus shipping. I compared it directly to the well established and formidable transistor amplifiers which retailed up to $2000 – and none could embarrass this mostly plastic el-cheapo amp. Some people are afraid of change – but if this is what change is, than I say – bring it on!
All the sudden, you had a cheap transistor that;
- Did not require heavy heat-sinks to stay cool and in fact, needed little to no ventilation at all – allowing extreme ergonomic versatility, longer life-span, lighter weight
- Did not require a mammoth sized power supply to deliver strong sound and control, as the class D transistors naturally had amazingly high damping factor
- Could naturally deliver tons of detail and over-all clean/balanced sound
- Amazingly efficient on its power draw/delivery – hovering in the unbelievable 90% range
- And to top it all off – cost FAR less than their class A/B transistor counterparts.
All of the sudden, and seemingly over-night, the old adage mentioned above was discarded. The ball-game changed, and no one saw it coming. And for awhile, it was good.
But hype is always two-fold, as is anything else in this hobby. Throw in the uncertain elements of individual human expectation, taste, bias, objectivity and mix it together with the often misunderstood world of audio that hinge both on intelligent system planning and a bit of luck – and you’re certain to never get one harmonization of voices on one particular subject, let alone piece of gear.
The problem is always the same thing; people that feel they can run out and buy a piece of equipment with the expectation that it should deliver the performance they read about with little knowledge of how that piece even works, in class D’s case – what distinct differences there are between UCD, NuForce, ICE, Tripath, etc.. what type of sources they match with best, what speakers, and desired output. For example; throw NuForce on a pair of Dynaudio speakers and you may be happy like a pig in sh!t. Throw that same amp on a pair of speakers from Totem Acoustic and you may be running for the hills.
Usually the biggest critics of class D amplifiers fall within two different categories. Those people who never experienced what they are capable of despite owning a number of pieces – and those who typically favor the harmonic richness and blossom usually found in vacuum tubes, SETs, and class A transistors. I believe it would help everyone out if they dropped the expectation of any current production class D amplifier to sound like tubes.
I’ve heard class D sound cut and dry, and I’ve heard it sound as emotional as reputable SET’s, I’ve heard it sound clean and powerful, I’ve heard it sound weak and lose, I’ve heard it sound exciting and musical – I’ve also heard it sound clinical and dull. Come to think of it, I can say that about every topology I’ve come across through the years.
What’s this mean? It means to do some research and find out what may match your system best. The most basic tips I can give is; If you have a pair of speakers with low impedance dips and demands high damping power – 100 wpc ICE, NuForce, and UCD will get the job done. If you want it forward, go NuForce - if you want it mid-hall, go UCD or ICE. If you have moderately efficient speakers and like a more intimate presentation, low powered tripath may be for you. Experiment around with pre amplifiers and more importantly; your source. Class D, more than any other topology, is critical on the source. If you want a warm sound but have a clinical/accurate CD player – it’s not the amp that’s your problem!
Good luck and happy listening.
Shiden, what you wrote was the most sage advice on these new breed of amps I have ever read. Thank you very much.
I just performed a search on H2O and came up with a number of results. Interestingly enough, most of which were from you – Muralman. You seem to be quite the vocal trumpeter to Henry Ho’s ICE based amps. I have to tip my hat in respect for your passion, although I have to say it does border on fanaticism. ;)
Over a year ago, Henry opened his doors for yours truly to get an ear on his many Apogees along with his H2O amplifiers (and other VERY special goodies). It is a shame that personal life has gotten in the way of Henry taking H2O further. He has some designs that could knock more than just a few audiophile’s socks off. Alas, things always boil down to women, don’t they?
While I enjoyed his S-250’s and smaller amplifiers – I’d have to say his best amp running is the $2000 S-150 stereo amplifier. Anymore, most manufacturers take the cheap road when offering amplifiers in this range – and why not? The profit margins are wonderful. This S-150 however, is just a beast. Standard 100 wpc of ICE power, four transformers totaling over 1KW with 400,000 micro-ferrets of capacitance per channel in an extremely heavy and solid aluminum chassis – there’s just nothing else in the market like it.
Sound-wise, its like everything else; it'll either work for you or it wont. However, it is without a doubt the best damned ICE powered amp I've heard; Rowland eat your heart out!
Hopefully things over the next few months will improve and he will have the opportunity to get them into production.
No wonder Henry Ho amps sound so good. Just imagine 800,000 of these little guys all singing in harmony inside the H20 S-150 amp. That's almost a Million! Sorry, I couldn't resist. ;-)
Micro-Ferret :
Abe,
Hah! You caught me in the classic 'slip of the tongue'. It looks like I unwillingly let the cat out of the bag - the mojo behind Henry's amplifiers hides within thousands of mini ferrets all running a large wheel which supplies all the current. Batter power? Forget it - thats already obsolete - until PETA gets wind of it all.
Edit: The S-150 boasts 200k micro-farads per channel... not 400k of tiny furry creatures :). Disappointing, I know :)
I enjoyed reading your thoughts on Class D amps. I'm keeping an open mind to these amazingly efficient and wonderful sounding amps.
I had the Nuforce Ref 9.02 which was my favorite. I also tried the Bel Canto M300 (ICE) monos. These I didn't care for very much. Same for the UCD based CIA D100 and D200 which I didn't like much. The little 5w (or so) Sonic Impact Super T tripath amp still amazes me. So much performance for so little money. I have not heard H20 amps.
Shiden, you should take up audio critic as a hobby, if not a vocation.
I accept your criticism. The fact is, Henry is a great friend of mine. I knew him way before he began making class D amps. He started out his audio adventure making marvelous dragon mouthed class A amps. It was I who got Henry started on class D amps.
My boisterous support for Henry's products are sincerely born out of the spectacular performance I have managed to work out of them. Unlike Henry, I am employing a non-oversampling DAC. The difference this set up makes over his own is simply astounding. It is a must hear.
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