Planar Speaker Asylum

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RE: "if the parts are available at Radio Shack" ...

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In Reply to: RE: "if the parts are available at Radio Shack" ... posted by andyr on April 17, 2009 at 21:26:20

well, the active way wit a marchand crossover is surely the superior modification -or not even a modification, rather an upgrade in terms of electronics.
the replacement of the internal mid-/high crossover is an investment, surely, but still less expensive than a proper electronic XO and a second amplifier....

if you�re completly unable to handle a soldering iron, try to think if there is anyone in your social circuit that will help you....it�s such a satisfactory job to have done once you hear what you have gained !

Follow Ups:

RE: "if the parts are available at Radio Shack" ... - Jim Cate 08:06:37 04/18/09 (5)
I don't have any trouble handling a soldering iron, and I have assembled several amps and receivers from kits. And taken several college courses in electronics, circuitry, and physics. I was just pointing out that the directions given by Magnepan (sent with the 3M 30NF Adhesive), was not very helpful. Even ignoring their possible bias toward 3M products. Peter's (archived) directions were much more explicit. In other words, the term "input plate" happens to be a term that Magneplanar technicians decided to use re this particular component, and it is thus essentially technical jargon. (Poor technical writing, as often seen in owners manuals, technical instructions, etc., is a particular gripe of mine.)

In any event, with the helpful information received from this group, I think I now have a pretty good understanding of the process. (One more question: I'm assuming that I should remove the "box," containing the crossover network and speaker wire inputs, before removing the sock. Is this correct? Or is that considered a part of the "input plate"? Again, Magneplaners' instructions didn't mention it.)

Someone asked about my woofer. - It's an older, Velodyne 18-inch F-1800 RF. It does have a high-pass circuit that I could use to prevent low-frequencies from getting to the Maggies, but I haven't used it for that purpose because one of the Maggie managers recommended running the sub and the Maggies independently, or in parallel, rather than connecting the speakers to the sub. - They thought that having any components in series with the speakers would mess up the response to some degree. However, I might try that approach. Regarding the statement that the Maggies doen't reproduce anything below 30-35 Hz anyway, I think you are missing the point. - Whether they reproduce it or not, they are still TRYING to reproduce it, and there is an undesirable and unnecessary load on the speakers. Regarding the statement that it's the high frequencies that "buzz", not the low frequencies, I'm aware of that, but nevertheless, I'm thinking the damage was caused by high stresses on the wires and panels when the speakers were sent big surges of power accompanying loud, low frequency material. I could be wrong, of course, but as indicated earlier, the buzzing started rather soon after playing the high volume organ notes.

As to upgrading the speaker crossovers, I don't have time to get into that at this point. If someone can cite sources reporting some good blind listening tests, level matched, demonstrating the improved results, I'll consider it later.

Thanks again for the helpful informaton. I'll report back on the results.

Jim Cate
- A small apology, Jim ... - andyr 16:54:43 04/18/09 (3)
  for implying that you mustn't know how to wield a soldering iron. (I'd have made it a large apology if you'd bothered to register on this site (so your name comes out in bold) ... I believe the community feeling here is: those who don't have the courtesy to register are probably just trolls.)
  Re. the Magnepan manager's comments about running the Maggies full-range and not "polluting" the signal going to them with a preceeding low-end high-pass filter ... my response to that is:
  * This is the Magnepan manager thinking "inside the square" instead of outside. Yes, I would agree a HP filter - any HP filter - will pollute the higher frequencies. However, as you pointed out, the bass panel is still TRYING to reproduce the extreme LFs - and this:
  a) is sucking a lot of amplifier power (which could be better used on the other frequencies), and
  b) is forcing the mylar to excurt further away from the magnets. As the 3.6 has magnets on one side of the mylar only (unlike the 20s & the 20.1s which have magnets both sides), higher excursions push the signal wire into regions of lower and lower magnetic field strenth - so you end up with distortion in the signal.
  * If you go 2-way active with your Maggies and replace the external XO box with a 2-way active XO, the mid/ribbon output of this XO goes straight to the amp which is plugged into the mid/ribbon speaker-wire connectors on the back-plate.
  * The bass output from the active XO goes to the sub - which splits it into LP for the sub itself and HP for the Maggies bass panel. (And the sub HP output goes into the amp feeding the 3.6 bass panels.)
  Result - no "pollution" of the mids & highs by the sub HP XO. Yes, in a theoretical sense, there's "pollution" of the bass signal from the sub HP filter - but IMO this will not be audible.
  Now, re. your comment in relation to XOs: " If someone can cite sources reporting some good blind listening tests, level matched, demonstrating the improved results, I'll consider it later ".
  Maggieism is a religion, Jim, and - just as in all religions - you need to have some faith. EG. that giving up chocolate, cigars and loose women for Lent will have a payback in the afterlife! :-))
  The Planar Forum is where enthusiasts hang out - who learn from the experiences of others and who, mostly, like to make their Maggies sound better. You will read plenty of enthusiastic posts about what people have done to their Maggies - myself included - but unless you have even a tiny bit of faith, you will never realise the benefits they achieved, yourself. Because you'll never be able to do A/B double-blind tests! :-))
  And that's fine - Maggies are a wonderful speaker ... but they are built to a price. And they're capable of delivering far more performance than what comes outta the factory! :-)) BTW, to turn your 3.6s into the "ultimate" pair - with a sound that leaves stock ones for dead - you would have to do the following:
  * Replace MDF frame with a hardwood frame 1" thick (and round-off the front edges).
  * Through-bolt the bass/mid panel to the hardwood frame.
  * Through-bolt the ribbon cage to the frame - and IMO, reverse the ribbon cage so you are listening to the back of the ribbon (which doesn't have the horizontal bars ... so must have less diffraction than occurs with the stock, front-facing situation)
  * Install the frames in braced stands.
  * Remove internal and external passive XOs and run 3-way active.
  * Replace Magnepan wire connectors on the back-plate with good binding posts (3 pairs per speaker).
  * Remove the mid-panel fuse. (Some people would say remove the ribbon fuse too - I'm too chicken! :-)) )
  * Replace ribbon fuse-holder with a quality fuse-holder.
  * Replace all the internal hookup wire.
  And, depending on the amplifiers you have, you should implement something that will kill the RFI that the drivers - particularly the ribbon - pick up. Al Sekela's "series choke" tweak is one way; I personally use a parallel cap.
  And finally, re. " Poor technical writing, as often seen in owners manuals, technical instructions, etc., is a particular gripe of mine " ... whilst I agree with you that one can find many instances of instructions etc. that lack clarity , IMO this can often be attributed to lack of imagination - aka lack of ability to think "outside the square"! :-))
  If the person who wrote the instructions/manual/proposal etc. had been able to put him/herself in the frame of mind of the reader, s/he might've understood that what s/he had written was not clear. Likewise, when someone reads something and can't understand it, I believe it's a good idea to stop reading, take a deep breath, open one's mind and try to explore what the writer could've been thinking when s/he wrote that.
  Good luck with your 3.6 journey; I suspect it will be a short one and you will never get to hear what 3.6s are capable of. (Whereas in the 18 years I've owned my IIIas (the 22-yr old versions of your 3.6s) - and all the mods I have done to them - I can confidently say they have never sounded better.)
  Regards,
  Andy
  
  Edits: 04/18/09 04/19/09 04/20/09
  - RE: A small apology, Jim ... - yawg 14:53:22 04/24/09 (0)
    Hi,
    In my case the filter in my active sub was audible in a bad way. I had Martin Logan CLS IIz and rolled them off actively at 80 Hz because my sub has a massive amp and the CLS can't play loudly anyway. As a result I got a "sluggish" or "lagged" bass.
    When I ran the sub and the CLS in parallel everything was hunky dory, only I couldn't play my music as loud as I wanted. That's why I got 3.6 Maggies in the end.
    With the Maggies I run sub and bass parallel also. The difference is definitely audible otherwise something is wrong with your hearing and you don't need Maggies anyway ;-)
    If you would roll them off at 40 Hz this would be less harmful as very low notes need some time to build up, they have slow "attack" so the delay caused by the filter in the sub wouldn't be as dramatic.
    Anyway the best thing would be to get more powerful amps. Then not only the "bass problem" will disappear without having to use a bass filter but the rest of the musical spectrum will also benefit quite a lot IMHO.
    Regards, J�rg.
    
    Edits: 04/24/09 04/24/09
  - maggieism ! - play-mate 01:28:10 04/20/09 (1)
    one is almost tempted to print your "statement" here, frame it handsomely and hang it on the door to the listening room.....
    - Hehe ... in that respect, Leif, Maggie is comparable to the Sirens who tempted Odysseus ... - andyr 02:44:08 04/20/09 (0)
      "Submit to me and I will deliver you unimaginable aural delights"!! :-))
      
      Regards,
      
      Andy
- RE: "if the parts are available at Radio Shack" ... - Jallen 09:01:03 04/18/09 (0)
  I have the 3.6, went to the James 1500 sub, and a 3-way Xover Marchand XM44, and ditched the passive. I crossed the bottom over at 80Hz, and can now adjust the low frequency to be better in the room. I have just started, but I am within 3db from 50Hz to 12.5k with a 4-5db bump at 100Hz. That is measured from the listening position, not at 1 " or 1 Meter in front of the speaker. The only to adjust in-room responses is having some type of EQ device. As a cost effective option, the passive is good, but the active gives so many more fine-tuning options, and the ROOM is "the final frontier" and ultimate challenge. How to keep a wife happy and a pair of ears equally happy.
  Also, photos of your project would be helpful for others who need to go on this adventure. Jallen

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