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RE: Moray, you're the man!

Posted by May Belt (M) on August 18, 2007 at 04:52:50

In Reply to: RE: Moray, you're the man! posted by Mark W. on August 17, 2007 at 22:00:02:

Kudos to you Mark for being prepared to experiment. That is all we can ask that people do - try things for themselves. I would echo Moray James words, that it will be interesting to hear of your wife's reaction after she has also listened to the 'frozen' discs and maybe other friends reactions.

The problem for so many people is 'who to believe' or as I said earlier 'who to dismiss'.

I know from how Moray James describes his experiences that he has heard what we have heard. How he also describes the reactions of the Stereophile people after cryo'ing some discs for them "and they were freaked out when they heard them".

As people are aware, I have said, repeatedly, that I consider Robert Harley's 1990 article describing Ed Meitner's discoveries as 'one of the most significant articles in the history of audio'.

So, I am sure (without putting words into his mouth) that Moray James is as perplexed as I am when some can 'hear' the effect of cryogenic freezing CDs etc and others cannot. I know, from interviews which Ed Meitner has given, that he is also perplexed.
To quote Ed Meitner from an interview he gave to Keith Howard.in 2005 :-

>>> "As well as freezing CDs another thing that happened which was probably more interesting was that Analogue Devices came to us and we treated some 20-bit DAC chips. They sent out untreated and treated chips for people to try and again the same thing happened: the treated ones sounded better......... There was never a failure. We treated tons of solid-state stuff, whole circuit boards, and the only bad thing that happened was that the electrolytic capacitors would lose their shrinkwrap. That was it. We even treated speaker voice coils.
What I've found over the last 15 years of being in high-end audio is that most of the minds are pretty closed. And this is strange it's the opposite of what you would expect..... What's even more puzzling is that you have all this megabucks equipment out there where the cost of the treatment would be of no concern. It would be a tiny fraction of the overall cost." <<<

************

I do not intend or wish to get into a 'shoot out at the OK coral' between the effects of freezing using a domestic deep freezer or freezing using the lower cryogenic temperatures - what I say is that if EITHER technique gives an improvement in the sound, then it should 'knock people back on their heels' because of the implications.

Bartc, you ask "What the hell would you then do if you found out cryoing them actually DID make a big improvement?"

My answer would be that "The importance of finding that cryogenic freezing a CD improves the sound is that after that experience you would have to challenge your belief structure !!!!"

Let me try to explain why I regard the (either) freezing technique and Robert Harley's article as so significant. Let me use both kmarikos and Todd B's experiences using a domestic deep freezer and Moray James' experience using the lower freezing temperatures - and both hearing improvements in their sound. And I will stay only with CDs at the moment, although what I am going to say extends to everything else where people have heard 'freezing' give an improvement in the sound.

Let us say that kmarikos (or Todd B) has a CD of a particular piece of music which he really loves. He has had that CD for 5, 10 or 15 years but each time he has played it, he has felt that the sound is a bit harsh, shouty, aggressive and has quite a 'boxy' sound. He firmly lays the blame for the harsh, shouty, aggressive, boxy sound on (say) the speaker system and is constantly saying "Oh, I must really look for a better sounding (more expensive ???) speaker system - one which is not so harsh, shouty, aggressive. Then, once I get a better speaker system I will be able to enjoy my favourite music much better."

He then has this particular CD cryogenically frozen and is amazed at the improvement in the sound. The sound is now described as 'more open, spacious, filling the room, better separation of musical instruments, better definition and - definitely - can NO LONGER be described as harsh, shouty, aggressive and 'boxy'. Which, logically, now means that the belief structure he has had for the past 5, 10 or 15 years (that it was the speaker system to blame) is no longer valid, no longer holds water. He has not done anything to the speaker, to the speaker drive units, to the speaker box and yet the 'harsh, shouty, aggressive, boxy' sound has gone !!!! Which means that he has been having the wrong belief structure for 5, 10 or 15 years - but he would never know this, he would never be aware of this without he had had the experience of hearing the 'treated' CD. He would have carried on with his original belief structure or he would have relied on other people's belief structure that 'it is the digital technique that is the problem'.

But, as soon as people describe the effect I have just described, they are told by so many 'audio engineers', by so many 'audio experts', "You must be wrong, it must be suggestion, the placebo effect, imagination, audio faith healing, effective marketing. Digits - 1s and 0s, once encoded CANNOT be altered !!! And certainly could not be altered by 'freezing'."

Even more serious to the whole audio industry is more and more people like the kmarikos's and Todd B's of this world discovering the effect of 'freezing' - whether it is by domestic deep freezer means or by cryogenic means. Because it begins to make people begin to ask pertinent questions.

If 'freezing' an item of equipment cannot be 'seen to have been carried out', then how does a reviewer know what has been 'treated' and what hasn't if they cannot see any differences (and are not told of any )?
A manufacturer (or an importer) could have ONE item of equipment cryogenically frozen and submit THAT particular item of equipment for review. The reviewer cannot tell/see what might have been done to that equipment but the reviewer gives the 'treated' piece of equipment a 'rave review' because of how good it sounds. What no one is aware of is that only THAT ONE item of equipment which was submitted for review could be the only piece of equipment which had been so 'treated' - and that every other piece of identical equipment, coming off the production line, has not been cryogenically frozen. The manufacturer (or importer) could then be selling identical (but unfrozen) equipment on the back of a rave review of the one item of equipment which HAD been cryogenically frozen !!!!

Some manufacturers are actually claiming that they ARE cryogenically freezing the products they sell which is above board and honest, but who knows what else is going on because everything (frozen or not frozen) looks identical. How can one possibly know whether the new CD player or the new amplifier or the new speaker system is identical to the one given the 'rave review' ?

Making the following comment on Mark's experiment, I am not doing it as a criticism - as Moray James says "You decide as always what you hear and what you don't". It is Mark's own experiences we have to go with - if he didn't hear any changes, then he didn't hear any changes.

However, to pick up on two of your sentences Mark :-
>>> "I listened to complete Diana Krall songs before switching to the other copy as well as switching every couple seconds during songs.
I then switched back and forth on a number of tracks not listened to earlier on the main system." <<<

It is the "switching every couple seconds" which gives me the problem.
For example, when professional wine tasters or tea tasters are conducting their tasting tests, they would never switch between wines or tea 'every couple of seconds'. They taste, savour the taste for some time, give their working memory time to register that particular taste, then spit it out (i.e. halt the intense brain activity) then go on to make the next taste. They are aware that it takes a short time for the working memory to register a particular standard before asking it to make comparisons/judgements. They would never be able to taste differences in different wines or teas if different wines or teas were fed (so to speak) one after the other into a continuous straw, second after second. Yes, if one was tasting vinegar in comparison to wine, one could make the comparison IMMEDIATELY but with music, one is trying to make comparisons between (possible) changes to exactly the SAME music.

Quite often, some people only 'hear' differences after they have allowed their working memory to unconsciously register any changes (improvements ??) and then when they go back to listening to an 'untreated' disc, they realise they do not particularly like the sound of the untreated disc any more. In other words, they did not instantly register improvements but after their working memory had been given chance to upgrade itself to a better standard, they can then hear a deterioration when they go back to an 'untreated' disc cause they 'cringe' at the sound.

This is merely a comment for other people to consider if they are thinking of trying the experiment which Mark has tried.

Again kudos to you Mark for experimenting.

One thing however Mark I do wish to take issue with you is in your reply to Moray James

>>> "So as they say on TV for me "this myth is busted"
And with all things based on faith not fact your mileage might vary.
(I say faith because so far I haven't read anyone explaining why or how any of this freezing stuff might work)" <<<

As I said earlier "it is who to believe' or 'who to dismiss'. But surely you cannot be labelling the different peoples' experiences described as 'faith' just because you cannot understand how 'the freezing stuff' might work ?

Regards,
May Belt.

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