Re: Group Purhase Ethics & Barry Diament's Hip Joints

Posted by Fred Volz (M) on October 25, 2004 at 00:10:02

In Reply to: Group Purhase Ethics & Barry Diament's Hip Joints posted by Wellfed on October 24, 2004 at 18:52:49:

Hello All:

First off, let me address the question of why I would just attack and then run, as was suggested by Barry. This is because I was asked by the moderator to stay off line. Specifically, he said "I strongly suggest that you refrain from posting for awhile". So, this is exactly what I did. Wellfed and Julien both know this because they have e-mailed me and I explained why I was not posting. So, to "call me out" now seems like a bit of a test. But, as long as the moderator understands that this is my LAST POST, and everyone else does also, this may be okay. I will not be making any more public comment on this subject for the simple reasons that I feel I have already made my point as clearly as I can make it and because I just don't have anymore time to put toward this worthy (IMHO) cause. I would ask that you all find it in your hearts to not trash me the second the door hits my bum. This is not MY idea, you asked for comment and mentioned me by name.

So, here is what I will say. I am sorry for the tone of my earlier posts. It was a mistake on my part to jump into all of this while I was so angry. As a result, I expressed my feelings on the subject in a less than delicate manner. If I have hurt Barry's feelings or, for that matter, anyone elseâ€™s--I offer you my most sincere apology. I really mean this, so no abuse--please.

However, I can not apologize for my belief that the proposed "group purchase" is ethically very questionable. I also will not apologize for my honest belief that Barry's motivation to give away the drawings for Hip Joints(c) and allow manufacturing runs to be made of a product carrying his design's protected name is suspect. I will site this post from Barry:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/tweaks/messages/64952.html

In this post, Barry makes some very strong accusations regarding Symposium Acoustics and whether they copied his design. I accept that Barry could not have known that Symposium already had finished prototypes for Roller Block Jrs in 2000--well before Barry started his work. But, why is it okay for Barry to become angry when he feels his design has been stolen, yet not okay for me to become angry when I feel he may have done the same? Further, why is Barry so upset about a company making a product that is similar to his DIY project if he does not hold commercial aspirations? Or, perhaps he simply feels he needs to defend himself on principal? I don't know the answer to this, but I can't help but feel there is something not right about what has been going on here over the past few years.

But, let's just say for the moment that there has been no copying--certainly no stealing--of anyoneâ€™s designs or ideas. Instead, let's just ask, is it really okay to facilitate a "group purchase" of something that IS so very close to a commercial product? More importantly, is it okay to do this here--on the Asylum? My feeling is that this would constitute commercial activity. We're not talking about organizing a group purchase of some existing product, or even of a custom piece that is unlike any existing product. This is a buy that proposes to manufacturer some number of pieces that ARE very much like at least a couple of existing products. Are the companies that make the products in question allowed to come onto the Asylum and pitch that you buy their product, instead? Heck no! This would be a clear violation of Asylum rules. I think everyone agrees with this. But then, why is it okay to pitch what is at its core a competing product ?

I will borrow from myself and add to this post something I wrote to both wellfed and Julien. I've cleaned this up a bit in an attempt to make my point more clearly. This is really nothing new relative to what I have already said, but it may spell my thoughts out more clearly, so here goes:

>>>>

An individual making or having made a single piece or a small number of pieces for his own use is okay. If the same individual has many pieces made and sells them--even at a loss--that person is a business. This is the law. Now, would I normally care about such a law? No, who would. If the person in question openly starts a business, has made many pieces that are close to an existing product by another company and goes about selling these--well gosh, this is also being done by a few companies. May the best company win? I guess. But, these folks are clearly companies and must operate in the other world--not the Asylum world.

Let's consider something else, however--the concept of seeding. Seeding is when a business puts some small number of its new product into the marketplace to generate interest in this product. So, a maker of toothbrushes may give away a few thousand to dentists offices in hopes of getting people--people who are presumed to be authorities on the subject--to talk about them and recommend them. Or, a maker of something like laptop computers may send out a few dozen to influential people--leaders of major industries, top CEOs, actors... The hope here is that the recipients will like these computers, talk about them, just be seen with them... The result is these folks promote these items through what seem like more legitimate channels than if the company had just advertised. So, this is really the BEST advertising.

Now, for the theoretical part of the story. Here we have a guy on the asylum who is motivated by his belief that Symposium stole his design. He has said in the past that he wants to eventually make his design into an actual product. He posts comparisons where he claims his design is better than all the other similar pieces out there. He makes it available for free (on paper). He agrees to allow his design to be made in limited numbers as part of a group purchase by very dedicated and vocal fans. All of this is right there in the Asylum posts for anyone to read.

Has he just set in place a powerful grass roots marketing plan for when he converts to "pro"? Everyone who bought the no-profit Hip Joints(c) will say, wow, you've got to buy these things! They will be able to blab this all over the Asylum because, of course, they are not financially involved with the designer and can say what they want. The designer in question would no longer need to promote his design (and would no longer be allowed to). But, the entire framework for his business and his start-up marketing strategy was developed right here--where no one else is allowed to market their goods.

So, how many posts has Barry made in the past few days telling individual people he would be sending them the drawings for Hip Joints(c) (You got 'em!, You got 'em too!, etc.)? My guess is very many. Why were these not conducted by private e-mail--a much less cumbersome system? This is all part of what MAY be a larger plan. I'm not saying it IS what is happening. But, it looks MUCH like it.<<<<<

So, that's it for me. You folks can make all the Hip Joints(c) you want as individuals, or in small private groups. It's not really my right to care (I wouldn't anyway). But, if you (anyone) organize a group purchase of Hip Joints(c) on the Asylum, this would be a different thing. I believe it would be a violation of Asylum rules, but I don't enforce these rules. I also believe it would be ethically wrong, and on this I'm not going to budge.

I wish you all the best and hope you can see that I've addressed Wellfedâ€™s questions in a non-abusive way. I suspect many of you will not see eye-to-eye with me on all of this, but that's just going to have to be okay.

Fred Volz
Emotive Audio

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Follow Ups Full Thread

Topic - Group Purhase Ethics & Barry Diament's Hip Joints - Wellfed 18:52:49 10/24/04 (56)

Re: Group Purhase Ethics & Barry Diament's Hip Joints - Bruce from DC 11:03:19 10/29/04 (1)

Thanks Bruce... - Wellfed 13:05:04 10/29/04 (0)

Re: Group Purhase Ethics & Barry Diament's Hip Joints - Rod M 18:57:36 10/28/04 (3)

Re: Group Purhase Ethics & Barry Diament's Hip Joints - bdiament 10:39:54 10/29/04 (0)

Rod, thanks for weighing in... - Wellfed 02:57:12 10/29/04 (1)

Clarification, I don't want to look like Derek Zoolander... - Wellfed 03:39:29 10/29/04 (0)

What a tragic turn of events! - Julien43 13:37:32 10/26/04 (2)

The sad thing in my view... - Wellfed 14:27:08 10/26/04 (1)

Okay..we give up group buy ..will Symposium give us a group discount ? - SoftwireEngineer 15:45:48 10/26/04 (0)

Patent Infringement answered (sorta)... - Monty 10:00:41 10/26/04 (0)

* * * * Hip Joints: the Coda* * * * - bdiament 06:13:09 10/26/04 (12)

* * * * Hip Joints: the Coda* * * * - Julien43 23:29:03 10/26/04 (1)

Thank you - bdiament 11:07:29 10/28/04 (0)

Re: * * * * Hip Joints: the Coda* * * * - Fred Volz 09:36:10 10/26/04 (3)

Fred please read (thank you) - bdiament 11:37:02 10/26/04 (0)

Is the Symposium idea an original one ? - SoftwireEngineer 10:40:45 10/26/04 (1)

According to Symposium... - Wellfed 22:51:20 10/26/04 (0)

Re: * * * * Hip Joints: the Coda* * * * - Mr. Walker 09:25:03 10/26/04 (3)

Re: * * * * Hip Joints: the Coda* * * * - bdiament 10:04:02 10/26/04 (2)

Re: * * * * Hip Joints: the Coda* * * * - Mr. Walker 11:14:49 10/27/04 (1)

Re: - bdiament 14:36:58 10/27/04 (0)

I think it is sad you have allowed them to silence you!!! - TomWh 08:00:24 10/26/04 (1)

Re: I think it is sad you have allowed them to silence you!!! - bdiament 08:52:09 10/26/04 (0)

Random scribblings on a theme (longish) - Owen 01:36:17 10/26/04 (1)

Owen, I seriously enjoyed your post... - Wellfed 10:06:24 10/26/04 (0)

Re: Group Purhase Ethics & Barry Diament's Hip Joints - JFB 19:25:40 10/25/04 (1)

Since you were civil... - Wellfed 22:07:26 10/25/04 (0)

purchases should move to the classifieds - CD 13:19:06 10/25/04 (0)

Re: Group Purhase Ethics & Barry Diament's Hip Joints - bdiament 07:20:03 10/25/04 (5)

Re: Group Purhase Ethics & Barry Diament's Hip Joints - Mr. Walker 04:46:54 10/26/04 (2)

I am not familiar with the term "ghosters"... - Wellfed 09:31:52 10/26/04 (0)

That's "Mr." to you - bdiament 06:28:48 10/26/04 (0)

I think you have expressed yourself quite well with this post... - Wellfed 09:52:22 10/25/04 (0)

Re: Group Purhase Ethics & Barry Diament's Hip Joints - bdiament 08:18:23 10/25/04 (0)

You deleted your post Barry,before I could leave you this ... - Jack Seaton 07:16:31 10/25/04 (1)

Re: You deleted your post Barry,before I could leave you this ... - bdiament 07:27:02 10/25/04 (0)

While I haven't followed the whole ordeal, ... - Jack Seaton 06:44:25 10/25/04 (13)

Hey Jack... - Wellfed 10:18:23 10/25/04 (2)

Sorry. In the future, I'll only post under yours if I agree with you. - Jack Seaton 22:13:38 10/25/04 (1)

Jack, I never suggested that you weren't helping... - Wellfed 22:40:36 10/25/04 (0)

The real question.... - pburant 07:26:06 10/25/04 (9)

Come on, patent searches are easy. - Jack Seaton 07:56:36 10/25/04 (8)

Easy? Prove it..... - pburant 08:35:15 10/25/04 (7)

I apologize. It might be difficult for some. Sorry, I won't do anyone else's Patent research for free. - Jack Seaton 08:54:34 10/25/04 (6)

I thought you said it was easy? - pburant 09:46:07 10/25/04 (5)

It is easy. I understand that your interest isn't enough to warrent payment for services.nt - Jack Seaton 10:24:29 10/25/04 (4)

Jack, I spoke with the Symposum proprietor last week... - Wellfed 10:42:09 10/25/04 (3)

hmm.."we are not talking about a question of patent infringement" - SoftwireEngineer 18:55:51 10/25/04 (1)

Peter at Symposium considers his Roller Blocks... - Wellfed 20:57:23 10/25/04 (0)

see my post above . . . - JFB 18:21:34 10/25/04 (0)

Re: Group Purhase Ethics & Barry Diament's Hip Joints - Fred Volz 00:10:02 10/25/04 (4)

Lots of IF's - TomWh 18:29:35 10/25/04 (1)

I, no doubt, want to avoid committing crimes ;0) - Wellfed 22:16:38 10/25/04 (0)

Congratulations Fred, you've passed the "test"... - Wellfed 09:34:05 10/25/04 (0)

Some good points here, not to be dismissed lightly - BobM 08:12:52 10/25/04 (0)

I have manufactured in the past and frankly. . - John PA 20:27:12 10/24/04 (0)

Follow Ups

Re: Group Purhase Ethics & Barry Diament's Hip Joints - Fred Volz 00:10:02 10/25/04 (4)

Lots of IF's - TomWh 18:29:35 10/25/04 (1)

I, no doubt, want to avoid committing crimes ;0) - Wellfed 22:16:38 10/25/04 (0)

Congratulations Fred, you've passed the "test"... - Wellfed 09:34:05 10/25/04 (0)

Some good points here, not to be dismissed lightly - BobM 08:12:52 10/25/04 (0)

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