Re: Not this way

Posted by jneutron (A) on September 12, 2005 at 08:34:50

In Reply to: Re: Not this way posted by Jon Risch on September 9, 2005 at 21:22:22:

JR: ""I don't know of any TEFLON insulated triaxial cables that have all bare copper, or all pure silver. In fact, I don't know of any triaxial cables with teflon and silver plating that do not have a steel core center wire.If you know a part number, please share it.""

Don't remember off hand which it was, but both shields were about #12 sized..can't even remember who here was discussing it with me.. Do remember that the shields were copper, and we couldn't figure out the inner od and the outer ID of the shields, so could not get to the characteristic impedance of the shield set.I think it was a belden, though.

JR: ""The e-field exists outside a regular coax, even with 90 or 95% coverage, this can be measured quite easily, as the outer braid is a portion of the return circuit, and WILL become an overall portion of the total dielectric system. This is pretty fundamental, so please show me how there is NO e-field outside the outer braid, when it carries the audio signal????? Modeling will show this quite readily, as will a simple measuremnt.""

Simple measurement? Please elaborate..You actually have measurement of the e-field outside a coax, for audio signals? Or, are you using RF tests and simply saying "they must". I'd like to see that, especially with a #12 awg running a coupla hundred watts into a speaker load..And then, explain where the e-field is, how it could impress any voltage across the shield outside the braid.. I suspect that you are assuming way too much, with nothing to back it up at audio freq's...actual test data would be necessary to prove your point here..

JR: ""Note that even if you avoided the problems I mention, the end result construction would still have some overall cable assembly magnetostriction/vibration issues,""

JN reply:"Nah, the inter-wire forces are way too low.. for a 12 guage wireset like zip, the forces will max at .0018 ounces per inch of wire for a current drive of ten amperes. That calc is for parallel pair with zero spacing, insulation brings the forces lower. For a coax set, the outer current distribution is in a lower density magfield, so the forces are lower than .0018 ounces per inch..For this level of force (even for forces a thousand times higher), heatshrink prevents movement.."

Sorry, but he only had HS at the very ends, not all along the length, and I did qualify my statement by including external vibration (magtnetostriction/vibration), as I have been consistently as of the last year or so.""

Ya got me there..I missed where he said hs on the ends only...
Tell ya what...you flog him for making a loose coax, I'll take the pictures...:-)

JR: ""I do not believe that your experience with super conducting cables under conditons very far removed from those of audio are relevant, nor any sort of convincing "proof" that the vibration/movement issue is a moot point. Napkin calculations of force and relative effect pale in the face of the real world, and wires that can move or vibrate have problems, this is noticable by those who have worked with high performance DIY cables, and while in this case, it may be dominated by any changes in the conductivity/inductance between the two braids, nevertheles, it is still a sonic factor to be reckoned with, and can not be ignored.""

Oh geeze, here ya go again...strawman city...ya gotta move on, Jon..I am not the only one with far more experience with e/m theory and actual real world application than you..

Ya gotta love it..."napkin calculations.."" You make me laugh..
The numbers I gave are real...very real..prove otherwise..

Those napkin calculations you "disdain", are used, ummm, where?
Oh, yes..
Motors require those calculations to develop the current/torque constant.
Solenoids require them to develop current/force profile.
Speakers use them (even your employer does) with the BL data in the gap.
Generators use them.
It is required for wires in cable trays. forwindings fo transformers, for wirebond reliability concerns.

The calculations are used for: motors, generators, computer hard drives, cd transports, speakers, turntables, car windows, car air conditioner clutches, kids toys...every single solitary electronic device on this planet that requires movement caused by a wire in a magnetic field...The calculations are accurate to at least 14 decimal places...anyone who can show otherwise will defy maxwells equations, and get an invite to stockholm..

You provide zero evidence to the contrary..

Note, superconductors were not even mentioned, even though they are the extreme example of using those equations.

Show us how a wire can move with .0018 ounces of force..
Otherwise, leave the strawmen at home please..

JR: ""Lastly, I do want to say that what is not a problem for super conductor research may still be a factor for audio with it's HUGE dynamic range to deal with, and the relatively large bandwidth (10 octaves) of signal to be carried.""

It is not a problem for superconductors because it is dealt with in a scientific manner. it is either understood, or figured out.

That is easy, because it is extreme, it is measured, it is figured out. Nobody says "it can't be measured".. It is, even if it requires picoamp, attoamp, kiloamp, nanovolt, megavot resolution..we refuse to simply say "well, at least it's not that difficult world of high end audio.""

We run the gamut from DC at kiloamps, to 400 Mhz at tens of kilowatts as a standard mode of operation..do you think for one moment what you cannot do, is not doable?? You would be suprised at what you do not know..I certainly am suprised by what you do not know, just as I am constantly suprised at what I don't know..but I live and learn..You also should..Instead of attacking those who do not agree with your made up theories, move on and figure out what the real problem is..

You don't understand what humans are sensitive to w/r to soundstage..nobody does..your observations are every much as important as my e/m theory in figuring out the problem..

So, Chill out...dude..Learn, and be nice..

This hobby has room for huge advancement..getting in the way of understanding is not good for it..please stop attempting to deflect...

Cheers, John

This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:

Follow Ups Full Thread

Topic - How would you make high end SPKR cable - Gerado 06:34:34 09/05/05 (34)

Re: How would you make high end SPKR cable - Jon Risch 16:56:59 09/08/05 (0)

Re: How would you make high end SPKR cable - Mudcat 04:43:48 09/07/05 (9)

Not this way - Jon Risch 17:38:28 09/08/05 (8)

Re: Not this way - jneutron 07:08:51 09/09/05 (6)

Re: Not this way - Jon Risch 21:22:22 09/09/05 (1)

Re: Not this way - jneutron 08:34:50 09/12/05 (0)

I only used HS at the ends though. - Mudcat 07:26:15 09/09/05 (3)

Ah, the vagarities of vanity.. - jneutron 07:43:08 09/09/05 (2)

Re: Ah, the vagarities of vanity.. - Mudcat 08:52:10 09/09/05 (1)

Hey dude.. - jneutron 09:01:01 09/09/05 (0)

Re: Not this way - Mudcat 04:48:46 09/09/05 (0)

Re: How would you make high end SPKR cable - zanash 07:44:11 09/06/05 (0)

Re: How would you make high end SPKR cable - rkeman 04:02:42 09/06/05 (0)

Re: How would you make high end SPKR cable - Gerado 22:06:46 09/05/05 (3)

Here's my 2 cents re cables...... - Audio Pharaoh 23:56:36 09/05/05 (2)

Re: Here's my 2 cents re cables...... - Gerado 19:04:30 09/06/05 (0)

Re: Here's my 2 cents re cables...... - Duster 01:01:03 09/06/05 (0)

Re: How would you make high end SPKR cable - Duster 08:35:39 09/05/05 (16)

Possible, but it takes lots of study. - Al Sekela 10:55:15 09/05/05 (15)

Re: Possible, but it takes lots of study. - Duster 11:20:31 09/05/05 (14)

YES! - scruffy_ 06:27:30 09/06/05 (13)

Yes again! - Al Sekela 12:57:32 09/06/05 (12)

Now you got me going - scruffy_ 14:46:14 09/06/05 (11)

Good machinists are modest folk - Al Sekela 13:53:06 09/07/05 (10)

Machinist is an occupation . . . - scruffy_ 06:58:47 09/08/05 (9)

You can't start again from scratch! - clifff 08:25:30 09/08/05 (8)

I agree to a degree, but . . . - scruffy_ 09:58:53 09/08/05 (7)

OK, I'm getting a clearer picture of your concern... - Al Sekela 10:14:30 09/08/05 (6)

And then thereâ€™s the packaging. - scruffy_ 06:39:49 09/09/05 (4)

No, they are just a virtual community that shares goals and values. - Al Sekela 14:49:27 09/09/05 (3)

More on what I'm getting at - scruffy_ 08:38:58 09/11/05 (1)

The wellspring of creativity - Al Sekela 14:58:07 09/14/05 (0)

Let me try to be more explicit - scruffy_ 08:24:03 09/10/05 (0)

I'm still a little perplexed . . . - scruffy_ 11:12:25 09/08/05 (0)

Follow Ups

Re: Not this way - jneutron 08:34:50 09/12/05 (0)

You can not post to an archived thread.