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In Reply to: Cheapest, bestest, power conditioning... posted by Wellfed on August 28, 2004 at 18:38:53:
...What do you use?Batteries.
What do you avoid?AC power.
se
Follow Ups:
nt
Thanks. :)Feel free to do with it as you wish. I don't claim any copyright on it.
se
a
I have recently converted a Panny XR25 digital receiver to run off a 12V SLA battery. I haven't put many hours into listening to the combo yet, but my initial reactions are that it's a serious upgrade over the stock power supply. Slow is definately not a word I'd use, although I was only driving 6.5" woofers with it. Very dynamic in my listening tests so far.I tend to agree that 'high impedance' is likely not the cause of whatever slowness you percieved, or is at least an oversimplified explanation. At lower frequencies, a SLA battery is likely to be lower impedance than all but the very very best active supplies, and a couple batteries in parallel probably has a lower impedance than the wire used to connect it to the circuit. At higher frequencies batteries impedance does rise (or so I believe) but then the capacitors pretty much dominate the overall PS impedance.
what I do is add a cap, of the correct value for the situation. I use solen fast caps, say 10 to 20uF, with a .1 or .01 bypass, which cleans up the Solen, and I find that sla's are great.ja in clear and hot, Tucson, AZ
The Elaborate DAC=55/76 or 27 Balanced Preamp=Balanced Six Pacs=Newform Research 645
Sorry, don't quite know just what "sllooowww" means.se
Obviously I am talking about no dynamics.
Over the years (and I'm going back to the early 80s), I've seen the term "slow" used with regard to batteries as well as capacitors. Almost without exception this was invoked along with "high impedance" which also almost without exception was coupled to the mistaken notion that this "high impedance" results in a battery or capacitor that "can't deliver the current fast enough" and therefore results in a "slow" sound.I've always wondered if it isn't this mistaken notion itself of "can't deliver the current fast enough" that's ultimately behind the perceived "slowness" particularly in light of the fact that there's a sizeable number of individuals using battery power who would use anything but "slow" to describe their experiences.
Obviously I am talking about no dynamics.
Ok. Though typically I see that described as "compressed" rather than "slow."
In any case, I still haven't seen any evidence of this high impedance that's so often made mention of. SLAs typically spec their internal impedance at 1kHz, and for most of them, it's in the milliohm range which is not what I would consider "high impedance."
So far no one has given any evidence of this high impedance and the manufacturers I've contacted don't seem to have any information on the internal impedance of their batteries at frequencies other than 1kHz.
So where exactly did you get your notion of "too high impedance"? Just from hearing other people say it or have you seen some actual data showing the impedance across the audio band?
se
Twenty-seven years ago when seeking to assess the quickness of a test of human eye reactions to pictures, I participated in a test of power supplies, where we found straight-forward ac supplies with little capacitance were fastest. Our explanation for what we observed was the impedance of the various supplies, but I would have to admit we did not directly test the impedance.Since then on the audio side, you are right I have often heard manufacturers criticize battery supplies as having high impedance. My experience with various battery supplies did confirm that I found them not very quick. I once had car batteries that I charged over night on the mains but disconnected when I was listening. I also owned the Nagra PLL and used it on D cells, disconnected from the mains but on batteries, connected and on batteries. I did prefer the D cells, but did not really like the unit any way.
You may be right that it is not impedance, but it is something. It is much like passive preamps I guess.
You may be right that it is not impedance, but it is something. It is much like passive preamps I guess.
Certainly it's something. But until we can determine just which realm, physical or psychological, that that something exists in, it's going to be rather difficult to pin down exactly what that something is. Until that time I guess we just continue going with what works best, regardless of what the cause(s) may be.
By the way, have you tried using batteries combined with reservoir capacitance on the order of what would typically be used in an AC supply?
If you've preferred AC supplies, then assuming physical causes, it would likely be due either to the hum and buzz produced by the AC supply or due to the reservoir capacitance given that the AC portion of the supply is out of the circuit the majority of the time, and when it is in the circuit, it's producing noise.
Even though I haven't seen any evidence of this high impedance with regard to batteries, I do use batteries with reservoir capacitance. I rather think of the battery as the melting snow in the mountains and the capacitors as the reservoir which saves it up and dishes it out. :)
Ultimately I want to try an array of carbon aerogel capacitors and get several farads or more of reservoir capacitance. Still thinking of the best way to deal with the huge inrush currents involved in charging up the array.
se
Why not just use power resistors with a delayed relay around it?I´ve touhght about the same you could use a "charge circuit/AC supply" connected all the time if made stiff as h-e-l-l. This would be akin to a trickle charged battery supply I guess.
Whatabout cap resonances? LC audio has gone back to the use of a small resistor connected to every cap in their new PS "VP4".
/Peter
A company called J1 Project in Japan came out with just a battery for audio equipment. It converts DC12V to AC100V. The whole thing is 38kg of which 18 kg is the battery.
The link is only in Japanese, but you can look at the picture. I saw it (and heard 'it'), it is larger than my 50kg Accuphase A-50 amp.
A company called J1 Project in Japan came out with just a battery for audio equipment. It converts DC12V to AC100V. The whole thing is 38kg of which 18 kg is the battery.
Taking a look at it, I have to ask, what's the point? You're still left with AC power. Sure, the quality of the AC may be better than the quality of the AC coming out of the outlets in a typical home, but just like the AC coming out of the outlets in our homes, you still have to hammer it back down to DC, stepping it up or down, rectifying it, filtering it, regulating it, etc.
I'm talking about the use of batteries to start out with DC and keep it DC without any AC to DC conversion or in the case of the device above, DC to AC to DC conversion.
se
And only 367,500 yen! That was more than a month's salary when I was a teacher over there - something like $3200 US.
Would this be practical for a system not designed for the task? If so, what are some of the specifics?
First off, I hope you know I was really just being facetious. Though I just noticed that you've titled your system "Unplugged." :)
Would this be practical for a system not designed for the task?
Well, that depends on where one draws the line as to "practical" and what the system consists of. It wouldn't be a terribly trivial task for most systems. And you can just forget about "cheapest." :)
I notice that most of the electronics in your system is tubed. While not impossible, battery power for tubes can be a real pain.
If so, what are some of the specifics?
In your case, I'd specifically recommend you forget I said anything. :)
Seriously, you're talking about a major undertaking here. And piles of batteries, not to mention chargers.
se
...that I set up your response quite nicely. Good one. :-)I am serious about my request however. I suspect that there are many here with the ingenuity to effectively deal with this issue within a reasonable budget. I have not established a budget myself, but would like to achieve near maximum performance. I am just exploring the options at this point.
...that I set up your response quite nicely.
That you did. Thank you. Us smartasses would be out of a job if it weren't for straight men like yourself. :)
I am serious about my request however. I suspect that there are many here with the ingenuity to effectively deal with this issue within a reasonable budget. I have not established a budget myself, but would like to achieve near maximum performance. I am just exploring the options at this point.
I'd recommend starting small. Your DAX is all solid state, yes? Seems that would be the best place to start, before trying to hitch up a 60 watt tube amp to batteries. :)
I'm hoping to eventually get my system completely off the grid, even with regard to battery charging. Found this neat little generator so I can recharge my batteries while getting some exercise at the same time. :)
se
I have always found that the closer to the signal source an improvement is made the greater the effect on OVERALL sonics is. Soooo, start with batt power for your CD clock, then the audio section, then the digital converters....... Today the CD player, TOMORROW ZEH VORLD !!!!!Happy Listening !
I have always found that the closer to the signal source an improvement is made the greater the effect on OVERALL sonics is.
That's often been my experience as well.
Soooo, start with batt power for your CD clock, then the audio section, then the digital converters.......
Heheheh. That the approach you thought you'd take today with your moniker as well? Start off with just a p? Then the k. Then the e... :)
Today the CD player, TOMORROW ZEH VORLD !!!!!
MUHUHUAAAHHHAHAAAHAHAHA!
se
If every audiophile was using this setup. there would be, either, no fat audiophiles, or very short listening sessions
Julien
If every audiophile was using this setup. there would be, either, no fat audiophiles, or very short listening sessions
Hehehe. Yeah. Though if you're using high efficiency speakers and low power amplifiers, one could achieve a good balance. Hell, if you want you could use a high effiency low power Tripath type amp, such as that little Sonic Impact which will run for quite some time with just 8 AA batteries.
For the more lazy, one could opt for solar and/or wind power for recharging duties. You can get some nice little wind turbines for $500-$600 and/or a 100 watt solar panel for about the same or a bit more.
se
practical is that?
Where I live we probably get 320 sunny days a year.
Its actually called the Sunshine State.
Makes me kinda wunda.....
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