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In Reply to: Good post but you left out.. posted by rp1@surfnetusa.com on November 22, 2003 at 12:42:47:
OK, I know these are el cheapo supertweeters, but they do make sound. Yes, I realize that normal human hearing is doubtful above 20kHz, but perception doesn't require only that which hearing tests measure - just see how your body reacts to very low frequencies you can't "hear". Do I think it adds to ambiance? Don't know. Do I believe or care if I can hear 40kHz? NOOOOO! That was never the issue.Fortunately, someone on Tweakers suggested I had the supertweets hooked up wrong and that caused the noise. So I rewired them from the B speaker terminals on my amp; it permits A only, B only, or A/B, so made for better testing. This also eliminated the noise issue and some of the unbalancing relative to the mids and lows too. To eliminate the phase issue I just let them sit flat on top of the middle of my speakers, which is about 6" or less center to center between the Energy's tweeter and the supertweeter cones.
Here's what further experimentation has shown me so far:
1) These speakers produce sound and it's quite audible and detailed all by themselves.
2) These speakers do produce a frequency range of sounds that for some reason my bookshelf's tweeter isn't or isn't doing as clearly. My best guess is: even though the specs say the Energys go up to 20kHz, they may have some severe falloff before that point.
3) There is some obvious overlap, but my hearing says not all THAT much, so the idea that they reinforce the HF is accurate, but just how much that's to credit is questionable. They clearly do extend the range and it's audible as "sparkle" and I can identify the detail additions for you. In fact, no amount of volume increase on my main speakers alone will produce these same details, yet the supertweets produce them even at low volumes, so it's clearly the supertweeters doing that part of the job.
4) The extra boost in HF has the byproduct of extra directional information. This is what I hear as "air" or "spaciousness" as best I can tell. It still works with both CDs and with FM radio.I can't tell you that I love this sound just yet, but find it intriguing and miss the detail when I turn them off. I think they could be improved by just a bit of modulation in their brightness, but that may be a tall order or even an oxymoron!
Meantime, please don't tell me they don't work, because they do. Whether anything else attributed to them is for real is another issue.
My ultimate question will be whether they are negated by the rolloff on the Taddeo Digital Antidote II passive that I have on order, in which case that would be a shame.
Follow Ups:
I have no doubt that super tweeters, properly applied, can help the average speaker quite a bit. Tweeters are usually designed to be phase and frequency flat in the lower end of their range, as the frequency rises the time relatinships go all to hell.However, there are some tweeters now that have response out to 40khz plus. (Things like ribbons and ring tweeters.) And guess what? The sound is livelier and more interesting (and usually cleaner to boot).
The question is "Why do they sound better?". Is it because of the extra frequencies being reproduced? I don't think so, at least not on CD. Maybe on vinyl or SACD. There is nothing above 21khz on cd except noise.
My guess is that if a tweeter (or combination thereof) can reproduce 40+Khz it can better articulate 5khz and 10khz and etc. (A better tweeter is a better tweeter.) Also the phase relationships will better be maintained between the 5khz and 20khz notes.
If you are using vinyl (records) then there are several other variables. One: Vinyl does have higher frequency response than cd does. The intermodulation effects may take play here. Two: The high frequency noise from vinyl may act as a dither and give the illusion of soundstage and HF extention. There's more but I forgot them for now...
You would be money and effort ahead to just replace the tweeter on your speakers with better ones. And change the caps while you are at it.
As to what is happening with your speakers, I got to go with Sysinfo on the measurement thing. It costs squat to download a measurement program from the net and run a microphone into your sound card and do some measurements.
Of course, if you enjoy it better with the supertweeter, then by all means use it. Your system is for YOU to enjoy however you like it.
Not sure which anymore! Trying to carry on a conversation on two asylums at once is a chore but informative.I agree with everything you said. I'm still fussing and testing, however, because, even though I have hit one of the pathway stones toward the holy grail (more air, extra detail, blah blah blah) it still feels a little off balance. Tweaking per suggestions.
Separately wired through Cat 5 was an improvement on the original experiments, though. Now to explore this filtering whizband....
This is nonsense.It's like the old saying, "if a tree falls in the woods and nobody is there, can it be heard" bull crap.
If your ear can't hear above 20,000 cycles then there is NO WAY IN HELL you will experience anything. It's like saying a guy that is color blind will enjoy a color movie more just because it's there. Bull crap.
Bottom line. Most good tweeters wil do 22,000 cycles. More than enough for most humans. No need for super tweeters.
Now maybe if your dog likes listening to music.................
It's simple science.
ONce and for all, I'm not interested in supertweeters for the super hearing! I'm interested in how well it compliments my own tweeter, which despite it's 20kHz rating, obviously isn't reproducing something in the hearing range as well as the supertweeters. That is the exact experience I'm having with them and it has nothing to do with 20-40kHz sounds or dogs' hearing or yours for that matter! Now if that doesn't make any sense to you, I can't be speaking with you about this, can I? LOL
You make absolutely no sense. If you can't hear the damn thing, it WILL NOT compliment your existing tweeters. All it will do is change the asthetics of your cabinet.Go knock yourself out.......spend the money on a super tweeter and help the economy.
I CAN hear the damn thing. I'm NOT talking about 20kHz and above, just below 20 kHz, where my tweeter is falling off and this supertweeter excells. And everyone in my home can HEAR the damn thing, too, so it isn't imagination.Also, these are cheap, not expensive. So it cost damn little to HEAR THE DAMN THINGS! Are you getting this yet?
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