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I was reading reviews of Magnum Dynalab tuners. Some folks claim that the sound of their tuner rivals their high end CD players.I don't see how this is possible unless the FM stations have CD players that are vastly superior to the typical high end stuff.
I wonder if this isn't a case of the signal getting smoothed out a bit and taking off some of the digital glare in the process.
Anyone have a different explanation?
Follow Ups:
My old Marantz 20b tuner with the germanium transistors and old school carbon resistors sounds incredible with WCLV out of Cleveland or WKSU out of Kent State. WCLV used to use Theta digital gear, I don't know what they have now. They did play a SACD the other night so maybe a Sony. Any way the sound I get from these has stations sounded better (well.. more relaxed, less digital distortion....pleasing) than some CD players I had in the same system. It's a very musical tuner.Mike
No, the music on CD they play on radio DO NOT sound better than my excellent CD player. Actually, it CAN sound pretty darn good over my Accuphase tuner fed by TG HSR-i squared P.C.
When there is a live broadcast or not-too-compressed non-pre-recorded material over the radio, it often sounds more real than my CDP.
A few years back, I recorded an entire afternoon concert from FM broadcast to a HiFi VCR. There was one piece that I liked so well that I transferred it to a cassette tape. So it started as a CD, was broadcast, recorded on the VCR and then to the cassette. My wife liked it too, so we decided to buy the original CD.Well we didn't like the sound a bit! I took it across the street to try out on my neighbor's $40,000 system that serves as my high end standard, and it didn't sound good there either.
Lesson: When you get used to something, you don't like it to change--even for the better.
Norm, did you ever think that the source that the radio station used was vinyl instead of a CD ? You were comparing your copy, which was played at the station, fed through the airwaves, picked up by a tuner, recorded onto a vcr and then dubbed onto a cassette. Once the station broadcast the signal, it could only go downhill from there, let alone making copies from a copy and doing it with lower budget electronics. I'm quite sure that all of the "rough edges" were more than polished off with "your version" of the recording. Sean
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I can't speak for Norm but I think you missed his point.
Regards,John
I understood that Norm was saying that his copy of a copy that originated from FM was better than a CD in direct comparison. As stated, i simply clarified that the original MIGHT have been vinyl and even with the degradation of multiple copies, might still sound more musical than a less than stellar "digital" recording. Sorry if i wasn't real clear on that one.... Sean
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I think that the point that Norm was trying to make was that we tend to like what we are used to. I've heard many stories here of people who have taken some music from thier younger years and found that listening to them on the same boombox they first heard the songs on, can sometimes be more satisfing than listening on a $40,000 system.
live broadcasts that are done straight from the hall not CD playback over the air. FM is not the soure of degradation, it's the idiot stations and there dynamic compressors and who knows what else! Some stations actually care about sound quality (so I've heard), I wish I knew who they were in NY though.
nt
Two of the local FM stations that played primarily vinyl sounded so good that it made me invest in a better quality turntable / tonearm. It literally showed me how deficient my "in-house" sources were, even with the signal degredation that takes place from the limited FM bandwidth, multipath, etc... Quite honestly, i was astounded that FM could sound that good. Being an electronics tech that works on radio communications gear and receivers for a living, i would have never believed it. Unfortunately, one of the stations was just sold and is now broadcasting commercial crap. Fortunately, the one station that is left is EXTREMELY audio aware as one of of the "dj's" is Rich Warren, an audiophile and reviewer for various mags and newspapers. Once this station disappears, there will be noboby left in Chicago playing Classical music or a decent signal.As to what is a "worthy" tuner for reasonable cost, i haven't found any of the "highly touted" (by the mags at least) NAD's, Paradigm's, Citation's, Pioneer's, etc... to actually do justice to what a REALLY good broadcast is capable of doing. All of them have flaws that limit the sonics, some more noticeable than others. There are some used tuners floating around that do sound wonderful though... Sean
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Which tuners in your mind are worth the hype?
I forgot to mention the Yamaha TX-950 as being specifically "overblown" and "hyped". LOADED with features, presets, etc... but lacking on sound quality. While i see them going used for more than what one was able to buy them for brand new, i sold mine for less than $200. Does that tell you anything ???Out of those that i've personally owned, i like the Musical Fidelity and Quad products. Specifically, the E-50 tuner ( which i just saw one listed for sale recently ) and the FM-4. Neither is great at long distances, but feed them a decent signal from an outdoor antenna with good broadcast quality and sit back and enjoy. The biggest problem with either of these is that neither has a remote or AM capability ( if that's important to you ). I would have to imagine that the new MF A3 tuner is very similar and it does have remote capability. If "style" was important, the MF X-Plora "can" type tuner was also nice.
I've listened to my Fathers' Magnum Dynalab's 101 and it did not compete with either of the two specific tuners listed above. Then again, he doesn't have that great of an antenna hooked up ( Magnum "silver ribbon" or something like that ). He rarely uses it, so maybe i should snag it for an audition at my place and see what it can really do. Sean
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I listened to three or four quality tuners and finally chose the Accuphase T-109 over the rest.It's been the source of much musical enjoyment, from its ability to pull in signals to its huge stage to the the fine nuances of reproduction capabilities.
I need listen no further.
Hi Sean, I tried a Silver Ribbon when I got my FT-11 and found that the antenna cable was more sensitive than the Silver Ribbon itself. I took it back. Also didn't care for the Radio Shack model recommended by Stereophile. I figured out a way to hook up to the old antenna that is on the roof of the house and that works fine.
Take care,
Jeff
Hmmm. I own a Quad FM4. I recall a review of it in a Canadian mag which stated that it had good sound, but was too expensive for what it was (I got it for a good price). They rated the Adcom and Rotel as good for the money and Magnum as better than all the others. They did use a really good antenna.
Santana's recent albums are said to have an average of 10dB dynamic range on some songs. This is well within the limits of FM stereo broadcasting - even if it's 20dB!!I would guess that a "good" high-fidelity FM radio station broadcasting classical or other pure acoustical music from a well-miked live broadcast, or CD's such as those made by Mapleshade or Stereophile would be vastly superior to the average CD in dynamic range.
The dynamic range offered to us by most record companies is a joke compared with CD's possibilities. So, in the real world, since dynamic range is typically minimal, FM can sound extremely good - but such stations are rare. We have none in the SF Bay Area. I have heard rumours that eastern US cities such as New York and Philadelphia have some of the best FM stations. Plus, they don't have the rugged terrain like we do here in the coast range to muck up the signal and add multipath.
Dave van Harn
with a directional (multi-element) aerial and tune in to a live FM broadcast of a symphony concert or chamber orchestra, captured via a simple crossed pair of microphones suspended above the orchestra.Slightly noticable lack of air on top vs. the best vinyl and potential for some compression if the levels weren't properly calibrated before the transmission, but apart from that the sound can be pretty amazing.
You'd have to work pretty hard to make your CD player sound so sweet and involving.
But yes, the cheapest MD tuner does sound better than a run-of-the-mill cheap CD player, if it's tuned to a station playing (especially) vinyl that's not processing too much and broadcasting a good signal and is nearby and you have a decent antenna and ... Considering the price of their gear, MD should upgrade the mentality of their advertizing - it's gee whiz! non-informative - I don't think it's well geared to their potential clientele.That said, I actually do get surprisingly excellent sound from one of their tuners. Smooth and clean, but the sound doesn't have the dynamic range of a CDP (signal compression). And when you're tuned in as mentioned above, yes, people who have never heard a decent tuner *will* mistake it for a CD, because, like, what else is there?
Under any circumstances and conditions, as long as both units are not broken, ANY CD Player will outperform ANY FM tuner.FM tuners sound good, because of sound processors that are involved in the station, and some tricks used in tuners itself. Unavoidable distortions also contribue to it's good sound.
No. Tuners are not even close to CDs. People just don't know what's going on.
You can make a CD to sound exactely as a FM tuner sounds. But you will never make any FM tuner to sound like CD. This says enough, I guess.
> > ANY CD Player will outperform ANY FM tuner. < <Well Tech, once again with the generalizations and opinions, stated as fact. So you have personally heard and compared all the best tuners, including the top of the line Magnum Dynalabs, McIntoshs, Marantz 10b, Day Sequerras, etc. If the source is the same, the above tuners will definitely sound superior to the average CD player. As someone above posted, a noncompressed broadcast of a live performance can sound incredible. Does the average radio broadcast sound as good as a CD, I'd say no. But that's the source of the music, not the player. There are many tuners that have the ability to sound better than any but the finest CD playback systems.
Jeff
Since digital RFI at the radio station get filtered out, you don't get this fatiguing artifact listening to FM. (Just be sure your digital rig is disconnected and/or turned off when listening, to maximize this "improvement.")
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