![]() ![]() |
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
172.191.101.5
In Reply to: Re: And I hope JA will continue to remain unworried posted by andy19191 on December 17, 2006 at 02:22:48:
"Nothing I have ever said is untrue!"This statement is indeed true!
"Science is currently unable to explain the differences in formats much less cables..."
This statement is also true. For example until science "discovered" jitter it could not explain "time distortions" in digital thus according to science they did not exist.
Another example until science discovered "TIM" distortion in solid state equipment it was perfect no matter how shitty it sounded because it measured perfect.
No we have to actually use our EARS science cannot tell us what we hear it can only guess.
"Music is love"
Teresa
![]()
Follow Ups:
> > Science is currently unable to explain the differences in formats much
> > less cables...> This statement is also true. For example...
Your examples do not support your statement. Examples supporting your statement would read something like "this has been observed about formats/cables which science cannot explain".
> until science "discovered" jitter it could not explain "time
> distortions" in digital thus according to science they did not
> exist.Utter nonsense. Distortions in time would have been clear to the first engineers that put digital circuits together and so there would have been no discovery in the sense that people ever worked with digital circuits thinking there were no timing errors or were aware of timing errors but did not know their causes. However, jitter was certainly "discovered" by those marketing to audiophiles and used most effectively.
> Another example until science discovered "TIM" distortion in solid
> state equipment it was perfect no matter how shitty it sounded
> because it measured perfect.Utter nonsense again I am afraid. What is used by marketing to sell their products is not a reflection of what is known by their engineers or science in general.
If people opt to buy amplifiers with very low THD on the specification sheet then this is what the market will produce regardless of what engineers know about the consequences to other forms of distortion and better balanced designs. Audio equipment is made to sell. If people buy based on illusions then the market will work with those illusions if they want to be successful.
TIM/TID/SID/whatever was adopted a bit too late in the 70s as a marketing tool to be effective at distinguishing amplifiers but as a requirement in a control circuit it had been known for a long time. If I recall correctly, somebody posted a reference or two from the 50s a few months ago.
Jitter today is very like THD was in the 70s.
> No we have to actually use our EARS science cannot tell us what we
> hear it can only guess.If you knew what science was then you would know it does not guess. It either says nothing, and there is a great deal about which it says nothing although not in fields like sound, sound perception and audio equipment, or it provides information/laws which can be used to predict/reason and conform to all valid observations.
![]()
Science is very good at measuring certain performance areas. For example linear frequency response, noise and some types of distortion. Science has also discovered "Damping Factor" effects "woofer" control, with a low damping factor producing loose and wooly bass and a high damping factor producing taunt and articulate bass.Sadly most performance areas still cannot be measured and thus compared by science and that is where human hearing is paramount! Things that still cannot be measured but are not limited to include timbre accuracy, warmth, realism, soundstaging, presence, etc.
Indeed theory on 2 channel stereo says that "height" information is an "illusion" David Chesky proved this wrong on one of his test CDs with the "up and over" test. The image begins climbing at the left speaker and does indeed go up to nearly 10 feet above the speakers in the exact center between the speakers and lowers down at it reaches the left speaker. I just love it when someone "busts" science’s often-dogmatic views!
After jitter was discovered CD players with lower jitter values were more listenable with some of the upper mid-range shrillness removed. I believe there are still more Digital distortions to be discovered and lowered to their absolute minimum values before most or all of CDs upper mid-range shrillness is removed. This is science's biggest job right now is to discover all the distortions in Digital so they can be either lowered or removed.
Solid state amplifiers with high levels of the "then" newly discovered TIM distortion do indeed sound terrible. But I watched many reviewers and designers in the 1970's defend these terrible designs because they measured perfect with know measurements of the time. This was not a selling point but an improvement that brought solid state a little closer to the realism of tubed equipment.
The things that effect the sound of interconnects and speaker cables the most is induction, compliance, gauge, length, purity of the metals, how the wires are wrapped and the insulation materials used. Also type of metal used effects sound, silver being more accurate and copper being warmer with more impact in the bass. Even moving cables effects their sound. There is very little scientific study of cable parameters thus science cannot predict the sound of cables. The only way is to plug them in, let them break in and listen. This is why a 30-day trail or satisfaction guarantee for cables is the only way to buy them.
Scientific method is a body of techniques for investigating phenomena and acquiring new knowledge, as well as for correcting and integrating previous knowledge. It is based on gathering observable, empirical, measurable evidence, subject to the principles of reasoning.
Although procedures vary from one field of inquiry to another, there are identifiable features that distinguish scientific inquiry from other methods of developing knowledge. Scientific researchers propose specific hypotheses as explanations of natural phenomena, and design experimental studies that test these predictions for accuracy. These steps are repeated in order to make increasingly dependable predictions of future results. Theories that encompass wider domains of inquiry serve to bind more specific hypotheses together in a coherent structure. This in turn aids in the formation of new hypotheses, as well as in placing groups of specific hypotheses into a broader context of understanding.
Among other facets shared by the various fields of inquiry is the conviction that the process must be objective so that the scientist does not bias the interpretation of the results or change the results outright. Another basic expectation is that of making complete documentation of data and methodology available for careful scrutiny by other scientists and researchers, thereby allowing other researchers the opportunity to verify results by attempted reproduction of them. This also allows statistical measures of the reliability of the results to be established. The scientific method also may involve attempts, if possible and appropriate, to achieve control over the factors involved in the area of inquiry, which may in turn be manipulated to test new hypotheses in order to gain further knowledge.
A hypothesis (from Greek ὑπόθεσις) is a suggested explanation of a phenomenon or reasoned proposal suggesting a possible correlation between multiple phenomena. The term derives from the ancient Greek, hypotithenai meaning "to put under" or "to suppose". The scientific method requires that one can test a scientific hypothesis. Scientists generally base such hypotheses on previous observations or on extensions of scientific theories.
________________________________________________________________________
So are you can plainly see you science does guess or hypothesize and try to make the best guess to explain the phenomenon they are observing.Sound, sound perception and audio equipment are fields that are pretty much wide open there is a lot left to be discovered and explained so it can be measured. I for one do not believe all parameters of sound will ever be explained by science.
And the level of interest audiophiles have in this is much less than the 'scientist'. Why audio cables sound different beyond what is now understood is probably not high on anyone's list
![]()
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: