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New Idlers, But Only On The Cheap ... Our Designers Show Their Colors ... Again. /long

76.168.68.144
Posted on August 14, 2007 at 13:23:01
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000
 Know how it is, when Manufacturers are forced to try and mount a market trend that's already in progress ? And they're not really too interested in it, their heart's not in it since it's not where they've bet the ranch, and they're certainly not invested in the idea, either financially or imaginatively... in fact by any stretch ..... ?

You know what I mean ? It's kind of like when you pick up your kid's toy whatever-it-is, and you peel back the "Lilo And Stitch" label and find the "Pocahontas" graphic underneath that?
Same toy, same cheap piece of chinese shit, but there's something kinda sneaky and disingenuous about that, don't you think ?
Something is lost when the kid realizes that, somehow, to some evil bastard, Lilo, Stitch, Pocahontas and even Hello Kitty are interchangeable fluff ...

Well, if you're from the New York / New Jersey area you certainly know what I mean.
Even though they have a kind of dimwit-mom-&-pop appeal, the makers of local brand Carvel ice cream have always used a system that is similar to the above.
Their business evolved in a different era, when ice-cream was a major event, often an excursion for the family that would be planned and spotlighted in advance, especially for a Birthday or Big Occasion. What they came up with was Ice Cream In Generic Molds, that could be decorated per the custom occasion or for seasonal events.

If you happened to be a child of four, this was great, a really special treat from your parents or grandparents for a special day.

If you happened to be a skeptical child of, say, eleven or so, schooled in the arts of parental manipulation and control, things began to become a little more transparent.
That very same "Fudgie The Whale" icecream cake that was great fun at your birthday looked a lot like the exact same shape as the Santa Claus cake for christmas, just re-oriented, so the whale-face was redecorated as St Nick's face, and the whale's tail could be decorated in red for santa's hat. This became suspicious.

When Easter rolled around, the whale-tail was redecorated this time as Bunny Ears, and well, you get the idea. Downright insulting was the late-spring "To A Whale Of A Dad" icecream cake, for Father's Day, that brought us back full-circle again. Don't even ask what was up with "Cookie Puss" or "Winnie The Witch". And what they might have in common. With whales.

This was almost begging the observant adolescent to infer that there was diabolical fakery being practised, at the expense of innocent children everywhere. And to extend that inference ---to the Adult World in general.

Keep that in mind when we consider Idler Drive Turntable Technology.
The prevailing wisdom is / was : No Manufacturer Today Would Seriously Undertake The R&D And Tooling Expenses Required ---to once again produce the complex, clockwork-like precision idler system seen on classic turntables of years back. Have a look at an Emt 927 for an example of same.

Funny things happen though, when there is lots of internet chat about vintage gear that doesn't net current manufacturers any profit.
Well, guess what ? Looks like we have a Big Surprise and also, a simultaneous appearance, of No Surprise There --- also known, to some observant former adolescents, as "Fudgie The Whale".

The Big surprise is that at least two manufacturers are taking a whack at the Idler Drive. Just imagine ! Todays technology and materials applied to.... hold it right there.
The No-Surprise-There moment, the big Fudgie The Whale Award, goes to these same 'designers' who simply figured they'd take their pre-existing motors and, without benefit of an Actual Idler Mechanism --- well, let's just see what happens if we kind of lean it against the platter--- put it right on the Internet, to see if it drums up any demand. Or is able to co-opt any of the no-net-gain Idler chitchat.... but this time with a current Brand Name.

This bears some emphasisizing.
Rather than expending the time effort & money required to set up a real Idler Drive mechanism ---with it's attendant sprung intermediate-wheel carriages and motor suspension elements--- our pioneering designers have decided to be really bold.
And being truly bold in this case entails : no new motor, no new idler mechanism, nothing really newly engineered at all, really. And certainly no new turntable. Either a pre-existing motor-flywheel, in one case, or a pre-existing directdrive motor in the other.... And then, as mentioned, well, just kind of leaning the motor against the platter.
You know, simpler-is-better, less-is-more, no-out-of-pocket costs... something profound like that.

And, at least in one case, post full-color photos on Vinyl Asylum--- to run it up the flag-pole and see if anybody salutes.
This is convenience and Freedom-From-R&D-Cost that other industries only dream about.

Unless those Industries just happen to be in the business of relentlessy re-Badging Fudgie The Whale.
I wonder if Carvel could make up an Ice Cream Cake to commemorate "Fudging The Details, A Whale Of A Product Research Cost-Savings" ...

I'm just going to step up and say that I bet they could.

J.D.

 

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    ...
Wow… why so crabby?, posted on August 14, 2007 at 13:50:29
wawa2020
Audiophile

Posts: 399
Location: NC
Joined: October 25, 2002
 No one asked permission to play in your sandbox? You need a bunny - where's Art when we need him?

Bob

 

Jeez! I don't even know where to start...., posted on August 14, 2007 at 15:08:21
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 So I won't, except to ask:

"Who says that the use of an idler gear is the preferred method to drive the platter of a TT and exactly why would they say this is so?"









Nobody here but us chickens.
_________________________

 

Well, you see the bunny turned out to be chocolate, and, posted on August 14, 2007 at 15:10:30
M3 lover
Audiophile

Posts: 6604
Location: SW Mich
Joined: May 29, 2005
Contributor
  Since: July 4, 2007
 was in fact an Easter Bunny, and that tied into someone's displeasure with how this all related to free market in the audio world, and . . . , oh never mind!

(I think Art would have a chuckle over the whole thing.)

 

i know what you mean [irony is dead], posted on August 14, 2007 at 15:47:39
OMalley
 Carvel isn't even ice cream, is it? That shit is ugly.

Some people ask how an idler might be considered the "thing." Ask the manufacturers who are playing at it. They should know. People who have heard those tables say things remeniscient of idler chit chat.

Hey look. I can build one of those idler things easy. Of course it is a modified idler, the newer kind. You just push one of these things up against this here. Is this the cynical approach or what?

All that negativity being said, it might be that these new rim drive thingies do sound better than whatever they were making before. Makes ya wonder what an idler is like, don't it?


Pat O'Malley

space for rent  
where to start...., posted on August 14, 2007 at 15:51:14
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000
 I'll start here, with your question.

Q : "Who says that the use of an idler gear is the preferred method to drive the platter of a TT and exactly why would they say this is so?"



A : I can't imagine who would say that, so I can't imagine why, either.

*

My post, on the other hand, was about feeble looking designs from risk-averse manufacturers who are nontheless attempting to jump on the vintage-idler thing --- BUT ON THE CHEAP.

While being careful to keep it (ineffectually, but still-- cheaply) within the purview of their existing topologies. Did we note that it's cheapest for them to approach it this way ?

Their offer of "How'd you like into buy a table using cobbled-together parts from our other existing lines ?--- Since it's a trend at the moment, we forced it into a box we'll feebly call idler or rim drive, while comprising no or hardly any investment on our part ?"

.... doesn't seem too convincing. In fact, it seems kind of condescending. To me.

J.D.

 

Stupendous technical response. ... nt, posted on August 14, 2007 at 15:52:02
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000

 

cooly calculated technical rejoinder to a stupendous technical followup ... nt, posted on August 14, 2007 at 15:55:22
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000

 

RE: i know what you mean [irony is dead], posted on August 14, 2007 at 16:01:31
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000

I'm starting up my own "Alternative Energy Drive System".

But for cars.

I figure if I just lean a spinning gas motor.. against each of the four wheels ......

Then I've squared the circle and split the infinitive !

 

Colors, posted on August 14, 2007 at 16:28:25
cbrady
Manufacturer

Posts: 188
Joined: January 14, 2002
 "without benefit of an Actual Idler Mechanism "

and what benefit would that be?

"no new motor... pre-existing directdrive motor"

The Verus motor, housing and controller are all new. Yes, it's the same type of motor (multi-phase synchronous) as we use in the Certus turntable and we use the same methodology to drive the motor. But that is where the similarities end. The motors themselves are vastly different. Not that it really matters. Leveraging on existing technology when appropriate seems like a good idea to me. Why re-invent the wheel and by so doing drive up the cost to consumers.

With Verus a key part of the design is the very low cogging motor. With all of the noise about rim drive this point seem to be getting lost. Belt direct and rim drive are all old ideas. But the motor technology used in the Certus and Verus motors is both new and unique. And yes, the RD costs for this technology were significant.


 

Ya forgot risk averse…, posted on August 14, 2007 at 16:45:24
wawa2020
Audiophile

Posts: 399
Location: NC
Joined: October 25, 2002
 Tell us all just how huge and lucrative the idler/rim drive market is. And how it's generally easy money in the high-priced turntable business.

Are you emailing us from the French Riviera?

 

ooooh, that's my new wallpaper, posted on August 14, 2007 at 16:48:09
OMalley
 it's so technical. and it has a boat.

Pat O'Malley

space for rent  
Yep, I am certainly beginning to sense that (nt), posted on August 14, 2007 at 16:53:01
ffrr
Audiophile

Posts: 2631
Joined: May 8, 2004

-----------------

 

Palette, posted on August 14, 2007 at 17:01:47
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000
 Well, this is one of those things where it comes to what is hype and what the accountant sees at the end of the year. I didn't direct my comments to any specific manufacturer because it becomes a "who ya gonna believe" thing.

We've seen it all before. Not from you, but ....
The manufacturer tediously comes back on, and cites his glowing career and committment to all things audio, points out that he's constantly upgrading everything in the purest of brotherly devotion to his valued customer, hints at dark skies looming if his point of view isn't hypervalued and fawned over, and ---- just swears he's put way more in than he's ever going to get back.
Just the kind of manufacturer-guy he happens to be, in contrast to all those other avaricious ones.

With scary but inevitable promptitude, suck-ups, hangers-on and sycophants immediately jump aboard to admire and praise the tedious manufacturer guy. (Coincidentally, you can see that just below, if you look........)

"Who ya gonna believe ?" The internet poster guy, or the Audiophile Designer guy. So I didn't put it that way.

But the two iterations we've seen of rim/idler, where in fact a motor that's pretty much already on the shelf ( in your case ...."Verus was born out our attempt to make the Certus technology more affordable. It uses the same type of motor" ....is a quote )---

Have been underwhelming, by the look of things, to say the least.

A separate motor-pod standing next to a turntable platform designed for beltdrive, and yes, leaning against it ... doesn't say much for a design. If there weren't Emt's and Garrards out there to look at, that would be one thing. But these designs are all in the public record and the two current stabs at rim drive are, again, underwhelming.

As a fan of rim / idler drive, I look to the inspired manufacturers of today to take it up a level, to use materials and tech that would impress the designers of the Emt and Garrard. What we've seen falls into, as I've said, a risk-averse, jump-onboard-the-idler-train before it leaves the station strategy ..... with off-the-shelf componentry and really uninspiring, banal design, at that.

J.D.

 

RE: ooooh, that's my new wallpaper, posted on August 14, 2007 at 17:09:42
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000
 That's to symbolize "boatloads of fun for you and the family" ---in our new ride.


 

RE: Sorry, but I still a little confused...., posted on August 14, 2007 at 19:18:38
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Who are you talking about? Your original post used "Idler" a number of times!

I don't know ANYONE other the Lorry Craft making a NEW TT with a true Idler Gear drive. And the 501 is just a natural step in progression from the 301-401 Garrards. At about $20K!

I know that Chris Brady has been working for YEARS to develop a controller for the multi-phase synchronous motor he uses in his newly introduced rim-drive system. If I understand him correctly, it is NOT the same motor he uses in his Direct Drive table although the controller technology may be very similar. It's certainly not like ANY of the DC motors which have been standard for years on his belt drive tables, but he can speak to all that.

That only leaves HW, and according to John Elison, he's a REALLY nice guy so why in the world would you want to pick on him? ;-)

Disclaimer: I do not own a Teres TT. I Do have a VPI Record Cleaning Machine, but mine isn't nearly as nice a John Elison's!

Nobody here but us chickens.
_________________________

 

you seem like a really nice guy, posted on August 14, 2007 at 19:22:47
OMalley
 but not nearly as nice as someone else i know.

Pat O'Malley

space for rent  
Ivan, now you're getting into the spirit of things!, posted on August 14, 2007 at 20:31:03
powermatic
Audiophile

Posts: 5843
Location: central oregon
Joined: November 24, 2005
 Well done, still laughing.

 

RE: the benefits of a transmission, posted on August 14, 2007 at 21:36:29
user510
 A transmission in an automobile, or other mechanical contraption, allows a speed reduction from a higher speed motor to a slower but more forceful output. Like first gear. Allowing a small amount of power to move a large amount of weight.

Another automotive example. Find an average auto with a manual transmission. Find a hill. Not too steep. Just an average hill. Drive the car halfway up the hill. Stop the car. Place the transmission in first gear, clutch out. Release the parking brake and observe what happens.

So what happens you say? Well, if the hill isn't too awfully steep, the car will not roll down it because the transmission is locking the driving wheels from turning. The car will maintain its position on the side of the hill. However, provide enough external force on the car (like a steeper hill or maybe 3 big guys pushing it) and the wheels will turn the driveshaft, turning the transmission, turning the engine. But it takes a considerable amount of force to overcome the gear reduction within the transmission. First gear with maximum gear reduction.

I think this is what we envision when we look at idler drive turntables. The idler system provides a mechanical advantage whereby a relatively wimpy electric motor gains some mechanical advantage through its idler drive train promoting a "forward only" type of momentum. Or at least the drive train of the turntable provides a certain amount of resistance to the effects of modulating stylus drag. More so than a (non fly-wheeled) belt drive and perhaps more so than a direct drive; both of which do not enjoy any mechanical advantage through a "gear reduction drive train".

-Steve



user510's system

 

Is that a large scale ship diesel electric diagram? nt, posted on August 14, 2007 at 22:20:49
Caucasian Blackplate
Industry Professional

Posts: 8313
Location: Seattle
Joined: June 18, 2004
 nt

 

Thoughtful and interesting post that should be a basis, posted on August 14, 2007 at 22:59:26
powermatic
Audiophile

Posts: 5843
Location: central oregon
Joined: November 24, 2005
 for comment and commentary for those interested in differing methods of spinning a platter @ a prescribed rpm, with resultant audio analysis of the influences different engineering methods place on the reproduction of music.

Gee-sounds like anyone who would bother to even read this site would fall into that category.

I believe the point is that sticking a spinning drive wheel on any ol' platter that you may or may not come across, may or may not be the most sonically wonderful way of doing it-but almost certainly isn't the most highly engineered. I.E.-you may get lucky, but the chances seem slim. More i.e.-the Garrard, Lenco, EMT, et al engineering and design staffs might certainly have conjured up the simple stick-a-wheel-against-the-platter approach, but rejected that for sonic reasons. It certainly wasn't for cost-effectiveness, as the complicated mechanisms inherent to the finished designs show.

Just food for thought, and coming from someone whose 'reference'(sorry) rig is a VPI Aries, but also someone who is interested in all possibilities concerning the turntable.

 

Perplexed, posted on August 14, 2007 at 23:20:17
cbrady
Manufacturer

Posts: 188
Joined: January 14, 2002
 JD, I am perplexed by your comments. Your main objection to the Verus drive method seems to be that it did not cost a lot to design and does not cost a lot to produce. The technical merits of the design can certainly be debated, but simplicity should not be assumed to be bad. We are pleased to have discovered a method that is simple, effective and also inexpensive. Why is that a problem? What part of the Garrard or EMT designs to you find to be superior? I am not meaning to imply that they are not superior, I would just like to understand what your objections are.

I am also confused by your insistence that the Verus motor is off the shelf. The motor, the motor pod and controller are all completely different from anything that we or anyone else has produced. Yes, we are using a number of technologies that are common with Certus, but that hardly makes it off the shelf. That's a bit like saying that a new tube amp design is "off the shelf" because it uses tubes and transformers just like it's predecessor.

More important is the question of why it would be the problem if the Verus motor was off the shelf? I could see your point if it were a misapplication, trying to shoe horn the wrong motor into a new application. But the Verus motor was engineered from the ground up to be exactly what it is. Do you see it as a misapplication?

About risk aversion. Any businessman worth his salt is risk adverse. Thats a big duh! Why would that would be considered as a negative?

I hear what you are saying, but I just don't see what the problem is.

Chris

 

Skating on thin ice with ruby scapel blades., posted on August 15, 2007 at 03:37:42
Elmo
Audiophile

Posts: 7424
Location: So. Calif.
Joined: January 27, 2001
 Long been the pastime here to knock all and sundry. The mags [guilty (and endlessly. But see no point anymore)]. Their reviewers (what ... they're not all virgins/saints/angels/genius'? You gotta be kidding me). Manufacturers (why they don't just give that sh*t away free to us poor audiofools, is a mystery to me). Websites, even musical artists (though it does look like Keith Jarrett needs a real honest to goodness timeout/vacation/or hug).

Yes even us Asylum inmates need take responsibility for our very own posts. Doesn't mean every post hits a nail's head. Or adds to the discourse. The DIY 'market', the used/vintage market, and the new/retail. Will all find their own levels. Making their own decisions. Following their own moods.

People buy whatever, for whatever reason. And unfortunately not every purchase is end result driven. In a new and different, and still growing information age. Those involved in the actual biz of audio will face new biz challenges. Myself welcome new and or different ..... especially if it also happens to make music. But that doesn't mean I'm going to get off my lard arse and look, listen, or buy.

I'm not a hundred percent sure where J.D. is coming from, and really I'm not knocking his post (shiver, cower, shiver) :-). Maybe make him the official Asylum designated reviewer for your product? Let him listen (and see) for himself.

Or not.

In the meantime, I also welcome your's and Harry's recent participation here. I see us all as one stripe [regardless of color (fwd/belt, rwd/idler, mid-eng.-awd/DD). Or which spectral end (consumer ... or producer). One vinyl nation, one music family, indivisible, with liberty to listen to any damn drive system, and records for all.

 

Nice laurel branch, posted on August 15, 2007 at 03:53:44
Dave Garretson
Audiophile

Posts: 2448
Joined: June 14, 2005
 Agreed. With only idlers in residence, Vinyl Forum could be renamed the Duchy of Grand Fenwick from The Mouse That Roared, or perhaps the Red Queen.

 

I like that, posted on August 15, 2007 at 05:07:19
anumber1
Audiophile

Posts: 5834
Location: Nw Ohio
Joined: June 4, 2001
 It makes perfect sense to me!

Any "wow" would be somewhat quelled through the mechanical resistance of the drivetrain.

Interesting!
--
Al G.

 

this thought must have you planning something, posted on August 15, 2007 at 05:18:57
OMalley
 it's got to.

Pat O'Malley

space for rent  
RE: this thought must have you planning something, posted on August 15, 2007 at 05:24:13
anumber1
Audiophile

Posts: 5834
Location: Nw Ohio
Joined: June 4, 2001
 I am about to take possession of a Russco Rumblemaster (actually a QRK).

I do have a plan but first I have to get an idler wheel rebuilt and a plinth together.

I am glad I have a friend with a large tonearm collection too!
--
Al G.

 

I may be missing something here..., posted on August 15, 2007 at 05:25:50
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 but it would seem that the "idler" provides no "mechanical advantage" by itself. If it adds anything at all it would be as a coupling device. As the outer rim of the "Idler" engages both the motor capstan and the platter rim, the "idler" itself has a 1:1 "gear ratio", so to say.

Any "mechanical advantage" in an idler drive TT is a function of the ratio of the motor capstan diameter vs. the diameter of the driven rim.




Nobody here but us chickens.
_________________________

 

RE: I may be missing something here..., posted on August 15, 2007 at 05:34:38
ffrr
Audiophile

Posts: 2631
Joined: May 8, 2004
 An idler provides a rubber gripping surface so that the motor can grip and drive the platter. If the rubber surface was part of the motor drive pulley or the platter, then speed would change as the rubber wears or compresses, but by making the idler out of rubber, and the drive pulley and platter out of metal, the drive ratio and hence speed, remains constant, despite the vagaries of the rubber idler size over time

-----------------

 

RE: I may be missing something here..., posted on August 15, 2007 at 06:42:14
rgordonpf
Reviewer

Posts: 1057
Location: So. California
Joined: July 15, 2004
 I understand that the diameter of the idler wheel does not affect the speed of the turntable. I also understand that as the O-ring on the pulley of the Verus motor wears its outer diameter will decrease thus changing the speed of the platter. The Verus controller box allows a person to change the frequency of the signal going to the motor. Thus, platter speed can be set using a strobe disk. (Since platters have different outer diameters some method had to be built-in to allow most users to use the Verus motor on their particular brand of turntable.) Once the speed is set via strobe disk you can change to 45rpm or 78 rpm with the flick of a switch. Granted once or twice a year you may want to get the strobe disk out and check to see if the speed is still accurate. Some people may find that a major inconvenience. Personally I would not. I have to use the speed control on my Garrard 401 to reset speed everytime I change from 33 1/3rd to 45 or from 45 back to 33 1/3rd. I find that more annoying, since I play 45 rpm LPs fairly frequently, than having to get out the strobe disk twice a year to check speed accuracy.

Am I missing something in your objection to having to compensate for the wear of the O-ring by having to get out a strobe disk twice a year? Heck, because of my audiophilia nervosa, I used to have to do that with my VPI TNT-5 with SDS.


 

This bunny?, posted on August 15, 2007 at 07:43:52
Caspyr
Audiophile

Posts: 203
Location: Seattle
Joined: December 28, 2001

Have to wonder what Chris did that pissed JD off...

 

RE: I may be missing something here..., posted on August 15, 2007 at 08:02:02
user510
 The mechanical advantage is the simple ratio between the driving pinion (pulley) and the driven platter. This we also see in a belt drive system. The "benefit" of using a simple transmission, such as in an idler driven turntable, is in the resistance to the minute slowing action caused by modulating stylus drag. This is why idlers tend to offer a more dynamic reproduction. Just like the transmission in your car when in first gear, it only wants to go forward.

-Steve

user510's system

 

RE: "Have to wonder what Chris did that pissed JD off... ", posted on August 15, 2007 at 08:05:01
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Don't understand it myself.

I have a lot of vintage gear, Dynaco ST-35, lots old Magnavox stuff, Goodmans speakers coming out my behind and a storage unit packed with junk from the 40's on up, including about 1,000 tubes.

I have modern tube amps built from kits, scratch build tube amps, plus a collection of old belt drive Thorens TT's in various states of disrepair.

OTOH, I have never felt the need to scoff at current audio equipment manufacturers who sometimes copy the best of the past and sell it newly manufactured for serious dollars, as can be the case with new Horn Speakers, Tube Amps and TT's.

I say more power to them! Refurbishing old Rim Drive TT's, ancient tube amps and 50 year old speakers is a wonderful hobby for some people.

Others not.

Those with limited skills and a buck or two should have a choice in the matter

While I am personally comfortable working with high voltages associated with tube electronics, I have little patience and NO metal working or wood working skills. As a result, I have no interest in embarking on an "Idler" rehab project.

I don't criticize those who spend megabucks on tube amplifiers which I might feel I'm able to build for 20% the price someone might choose to pay for a newly manufactured piece.

As a result, I have little patience for those who feel that just because they have the desire and ability to rehab an old "Idler" TT, no one should have the right to manufacture a similar new product for a fair price.




Nobody here but us chickens.
_________________________

 

Yes, but the "Idler" itself plays no role in any of this..., posted on August 15, 2007 at 08:07:17
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 as its ratio is 1:1.


Nobody here but us chickens.
_________________________

 

RE: that's right, posted on August 15, 2007 at 08:15:20
user510
 the "idler" is just what it calls itself, an idler. Typically it is used in a gear train scenario to change the direction of rotation of the "driven" wheel (platter).

Repeating myself here, (sorry), the benefit from having a few wheels connected up within a driving system is the resistance toward any minute slowing action caused by modulating stylus drag. Hence the more dynamic musical reproduction of an idler turntable compared to any other type.

-Steve



user510's system

 

RE: I may be missing something here..., posted on August 15, 2007 at 08:57:34
cbrady
Manufacturer

Posts: 188
Joined: January 14, 2002
 You are correct as the o-ring on the Verus motor wears the speed will indeed change. However, the o-ring is fairly hard and even with years of use the wear will be just a few thousandths. That means a net speed change of 0.0017%. Not a big issue.

 

RE: Wow… why so crabby?, posted on August 15, 2007 at 09:49:07
mothra
Audiophile

Posts: 1841
Joined: August 28, 2001
 also, you know it is expected for manufacturers to go the way they think they can make money. Remember when all gear was suddenly tube again? Sure, I like tubes but there were a lot of lousy designs out there so people could sell to another group of people. There are some great designers, but it's all about selling widgets for a lot of people.

 

RE: large scale ship diesel electric, posted on August 15, 2007 at 10:06:13
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000
 Submarine, I think. Just looked overly-complex enough for humor purposes here.....

J.

 

I musta missed the memo.., posted on August 15, 2007 at 10:14:28
Caspyr
Audiophile

Posts: 203
Location: Seattle
Joined: December 28, 2001
 I didn't know trashing someone's design and business practices on a public forum was humor....

 

pastime, posted on August 15, 2007 at 10:34:26
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000
 There are pastimes, and then there are concerted efforts to post a viable critique.

Generally, the 'pastime' thing takes about sixty seconds for what seems a witty idea and maybe a google image search--- before posting a reply.

My post took a few days of consideration and maybe 30 minutes to write up. It's a bit of original thought on two current 'rim' designs that should, if nothing else, be a part of the raison of Vinyl Asylum.

To condense it again, since nobody seems inclined to want to get it, goes like this :

With stunning examples of the science and art of rim drive from years back to contemplate (emt 927).... Two of our current designers appear to have chosen the low road and tacked-together some impromptu, feeble rimdrive efforts.
This looks, in an audio world very accustomed to shambolic trend-diving price foolery ... like another excercise in consumer baiting gimickry.

As an idler/rim enthusiast who has the even the vaguest notion of what might be possible today.... I think it's worth pointing out the Extreme Underwhelming quality of their 'efforts', both of which comprise nothing approaching the precision mechanisms of the past.

Don't think I can be too much clearer.


J.D.

 

RE: pastime, posted on August 15, 2007 at 11:27:39
cbrady
Manufacturer

Posts: 188
Joined: January 14, 2002
 "since nobody seems inclined to want to get it"

We get it, you don't like what you are seeing. Fair enough.

But please share with us what it is that you don't like.
Do you have concerns about performance?
Do you think the sound will be substandard?
Do you think that are reliability issues?
Do you think it is ugly?
...
Would you like it in a box?
Would you like it with a fox?

 

Counter Perplexity .... a breakdown, posted on August 15, 2007 at 11:31:33
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000
 Hi Chris

You've certainly asked some of the right questions. Let me condense my long original post, and put it this way :
With stunning examples of the science and art of rim drive from years back to contemplate (emt 927).... Two of our current designers appear to have chosen the low road and tacked-together some impromptu, feeble rimdrive efforts.
This looks, in an audio world very accustomed to shambolic trend-diving price foolery ... like another excercise in consumer baiting gimickry.

As an idler/rim enthusiast who has the even the vaguest notion of what might be possible today.... I think it's worth pointing out the Extreme Underwhelming quality of their 'efforts', both of which comprise nothing approaching the precision mechanisms of the past.


Since I'm talking here about Two designers, not all of this applies to the Teres Rim Drive with 'Verus' motor. But hopefully the point isn't too opaque to grasp.

Let me mention that I'll bet your Certus/Verus motor is very impressive indeed, as a motor. We've all watched, here at Vinyl Asylum, while member Mark Kelly went thru extensive experimentation with MultiPhase motors for turntable drive. I'll guess that you were watching too.

Let me then mention that putting it in a tower housing, sticking a wheel on it and a rubber gasket around the wheel, etc etc etc.... doesn't strike me as a very impressive implementation of that motor system.

Especially with the fossil record being as impressive as it is-- Emt 927, 930, and the Garrards, Thorens and Lencos that are all much very more expensive today than they ever were as new.

Since you ask (would you really ask that I believe you don't know ?) what the advantages of these examples may be, here is what comes to mind off the cuff.


Advantage of the motor-integral idler designs

*** Smoothing function of the Intermediate Wheel (idler) Mechanism on cogging, stylus drag
*** Ability to Mechanically ensure precise speed, (generally conceded to be more stable than, say, beldrive)--
*** Rendering a turntable that has speed integrity on it's own without the $K electronics box
*** No need to rely on precision or security of user placement, or physical drift in motor site & coupling characteristic
*** No expectation of Speed Deterioration due to wear on compliant drive surfaces. Metal-rubber-metal intermediate wheel contacts anticipate and obviate concerns
*** No independent, and possibly conflicting oscillation --uncontrolled micro-wobble-- afflicting the two (table, motor) independent structures, due to motor-integral design

That's Six strong points that neither rim design under discussion can claim.

But I haven't even mentioned the biggest one.
Controlled, adjustable, micro-tension-able COUPLING of the drive-capstan to the platter. Complete control.

Both rim drives under discussion, contrarily, LEAN a spinning wheel against a platter.
There is really no argument that I can envision that would somehow pretend to find that preferrable.
(Money ? well, as has been brought up before, circa-1600 cash buys a brand new in-the-box garrard 401 that will last fifty years. Countless numbers have.)

Lastly, I'll mention the naggingly annoying part of the two rim drives under discussion.

It's wrong to tar both designs with the same brush, but.......
It looks like one manufacturer figured he'd wrap a gasket around his flywheel and publish it, a couple of times now, on our board, gratis and free of charge.
Looks like the other spent a lot on his direct-drive motor and then figured, hey, why not stick a wheel on it and we'll have a rim-drive model, too.

Appearances aren't everything, but in an arena that is about 70-90% bullshit depending on which day you get out the dipstick....

Implementation counts for a lot.

J.D.



 

perhaps this is what we envisioned when...., posted on August 15, 2007 at 11:46:44
user510
 ....we heard of new "wheel driven" turntables on the horizon.

The Seiko Epson record player from 1994. A Japanese designer by the name of Teragaki dreamed it up. Probably more interesting than his drive system is his platter bearing, but that's for another thread.

Just noting a recent idler drive topology that drives the rim from the outside.


-Steve

More info on the Teragaki at the translated link below.
user510's system

 

you've got the picture, posted on August 15, 2007 at 11:47:45
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000



...... Literally.

J.D.

 

Wow. How elegant-looking is that. Nice find. /nt/, posted on August 15, 2007 at 12:43:21
powermatic
Audiophile

Posts: 5843
Location: central oregon
Joined: November 24, 2005
 .

 

..if I may add some historical perspective....., posted on August 15, 2007 at 13:05:35
je2a3
Audiophile

Posts: 308
Location: PA
Joined: July 15, 2003
 Hi Steve,

....Gray Research and D&R from the 50s were also rim driven and may have served as the inspiration for the Sigma Epson. Pasted below is my reply to the Sigma Epson thread last month. It seems like this drive approach was not very successful in the market since I've never seen a Gray or D&R in the metal. But it just goes to show that there is a dearth in original and truly innovative concepts in audio, not just turntables.....

je

 

RE: ..if I may add some historical perspective....., posted on August 15, 2007 at 13:54:02
user510
 Hi je.
You're probably right. And along those lines there is probably very little that is actually new. Although you'd hope that perhaps some worthy bygone designs might gain new exposure at some time during this vinyl renaissance that we are witnessing.

I do recall monitoring the old Teres email list back when it was active. It was suggested more than once that a Teres be adapted to an "external idler" drive scenario. It appears that Chris is the first to actually implement anything of the sort, idler or no.

-Steve



user510's system

 

Perhaps there is an RPM factor to consider, posted on August 15, 2007 at 14:33:22
tubesforever
Manufacturer

Posts: 10505
Location: Great Basin
Joined: May 7, 2005
 The final drive ratio is the circumference of the platter surface interface divided by the motor rpm and the drive pulley circumference. So even though the tire itself is driving 33.33 rpm a higher rpm motor should exhibit better resistance to stylus drag than a lower rpm motor of the same torque rating.

The devil is in the details....

 

with a fox ?, posted on August 15, 2007 at 14:40:45
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000






I was cured, alright.

 

you musta missed the memo, yeah. .....and the point., posted on August 15, 2007 at 14:56:25
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000

I was cured, alright.

 

Interesting thoughts, but I'm not sure I agree....., posted on August 15, 2007 at 15:43:50
JimL
Audiophile

Posts: 3773
Location: New Mexico
Joined: November 24, 2002
 I am familiar with the Lenco, Thorens and Garrard idler designs, not so much with the Russco and other idlers. I have seen pictures of the recent designs but have not heard them.

But, to go back to basics, let's consider WHY idlers designs were used in the first place. I think the reason is that, in the absence of electronic motor controls, they were designed to allow the possibility of changing platter speeds. The Thorens and Garrard allowed limited speed change by using magnetic braking, and the Lenco of course used a tapered spindle system for infinitely variable speed change. IIRC the first electronic speed change was the Thorens TD125 which used a DC motor and electronic speed control. Of course, direct drives also use electronic speed change.

However, back in the fifties and sixties, AC power basically meant one motor speed. Belt drive could do different platter speeds by manually or mechanically moving a belt from one pulley size to the next. Idler did it by mechanically moving a idler wheel from one pulley size to the next, or, on the Lenco, moving the wheel along a tapered spindle, with the pulley or spindle being directly attached to the motor. The idler itself provided a 1:1 drive, so there was no torque transformation.

The only other rationales I can see for having an intermediate idler are 1) possible noise isolation, although the "stiffer" the idler the less the noise isolation, and 2) to allow the idler to be disengaged from the platter when it was off to prevent flat spotting, which is a known problem with the Garrard 301/401, and to some extent with the plastic wheel Lenco - the metal wheel Lenco has a thin rubber coating and is reported to be largely immune to this problem.

Thus, if you can change speeds electronically, that removes one reason for needing an intermediate idler. If the motor is sufficiently quiet, that removes the second reason. If the pulley can be designed with sufficient friction to drive the platter directly, but stiff or resilient enough to prevent flat spotting that removes the third reason. Therefore, I see no obvious reason from a design standpoint why a rim drive with the motor driving the rim "directly" via a pulley/wheel would have to be a "cheapy" or "inferior" solution to using an intermediate idler. In fact, theoretically, either an idler or a belt introduces a potential source of "slop" in the system. The overall results would still depend on the implementation, as is usually the case.

 

RE: Interesting thoughts, posted on August 15, 2007 at 17:01:53
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000
 All the legendary rim drive / Idler drives mentioned-- Emt, Garrard, Thorens, etc, have the intermediate wheel mechanism.

And --even if you ignore the pitch control afforded by the eddy-current brake--- they all have a precise means, or several inter-acting means, of adjusting the coupling of same to the load.

To fastforward thru the thread, here's my understanding of why ::

Advantage of the motor-integral idler designs

*** Smoothing function of the Intermediate Wheel (idler) Mechanism on cogging, stylus drag
*** Ability to Mechanically ensure precise speed, (generally conceded to be more stable than, say, beldrive)--
*** Rendering a turntable that has speed integrity on it's own without the $K electronics box
*** No need to rely on precision or security of user placement, or physical drift in motor site & coupling characteristic
*** No expectation of Speed Deterioration due to wear on compliant drive surfaces. Metal-rubber-metal intermediate wheel contacts anticipate and obviate concerns
*** No independent, and possibly conflicting oscillation --uncontrolled micro-wobble-- afflicting the two (table, motor) independent structures, due to motor-integral design


But I haven't even mentioned the biggest one.
Controlled, adjustable, micro-tension-able COUPLING of the drive-capstan to the platter. Complete control.

Leaving the tensioning of the drive-idler-platter interface to chance, good luck, or precise user understanding and setup, to me.... is a recipe for problems. Or at best, intermittent-ly correct performance, in the speed domain.

J.D.

Edit ...

I'll concede that a more perfected motor (perhaps the multiphase synchro) presents a challenge to my vive-le-precise-mechanics argument, but, even still. There are those who'd prefer a mechanical Patek-Phillipe wristwatch to event the most precise Seiko Digital you can buy...



But that's another thread, I think.


I was cured, alright.

 

"friend with a large tonearm collection", posted on August 15, 2007 at 17:30:31
OMalley
 I know what you mean. I got mail today.
All the elements are gathering ....

Pat O'Malley

space for rent  
RE: AC power in the fifties and sixties., posted on August 15, 2007 at 17:32:35
user510
 The 301/401 and Thorens players were using motors that are called "shaded pole induction motors" These are not frequency dependent in the same was as a synchronous AC motor and will to some degree increase or decrease rpm based on the voltage amount supplied. Platter speed was controlled by stepped pulleys for different speeds, by voltage delivery and fine speed pitch by way of eddy brake. The eddy brake fine pitch control also compensated for wear over time to the idler wheel.



For Thorens it wasn't until the TD150 when they began using a 16 pole AC synchronous motor. This type of motor synchronizes itself with the frequency of the mains grid and is speed controlled in this manner. Therefore a TD150 or TD160 needs no other means to control platter speed other than to control the size of the pulley diameter for a given speed selection. Hence the stepped pulleys and belt derailleurs of the Td150 and TD16x models. The TD125 controlled platter speed via electronic feedback and used only one pulley diameter. Hence no belt derailleur on a TD125.

For those who have heard well setup idlers and "know" of the superior dynamic delivery of this breed of turntable, I would ask the following question: "How do you account for the inherent sonic character of such a machine if it isn't a product of its drive train mechanisms?"

-Steve







user510's system

 

...a "tourbillon" equivalent? nt, posted on August 15, 2007 at 18:52:48
je2a3
Audiophile

Posts: 308
Location: PA
Joined: July 15, 2003
 ;0)!

 

RE: Interesting thoughts, posted on August 15, 2007 at 21:01:50
cbrady
Manufacturer

Posts: 188
Joined: January 14, 2002
 JD, Interesting points.

*** Smoothing function of the Intermediate Wheel (idler) Mechanism on cogging, stylus drag
Yes, an intermediate wheel will increase the amount of isolation between the motor and platter. That is good if you have a motor the has a lot of cogging, as do most vintage designs. A belt drive provides a lot more isolation. Isolation also has a detrimental effect in that it delays delivery of torque limiting the motors ability to counter stylus drag. The Verus motor has several orders of magnitude less cogging than a typical idler motor so much, much less isolation is needed. In this case adding additional isolation via an intermediate wheel would almost certainly make things worse.

"*** Ability to Mechanically ensure precise speed, (generally conceded to be more stable than, say, beldrive)--"
With the Verus direct coupling there is only one friction surface rather than two, but otherwise the concept is the same. Is there any reason to think that adding an additional friction surface would deliver better speed accuracy? It seems logical that the reverse should be true.

"*** Rendering a turntable that has speed integrity on it's own without the $K electronics box"
Most idlers do not have a speed control box and that is certainly good from a cost perspective, but how is that a technical advantage? This has nothing to do with the superiority of idler drive. I have no doubt that a vintage idler would sound considerably better if the noisy AC motor were replaced with a low cogging DC motor or better yet, a multi phase sync motor... Hmm, that has me thinking...

"*** No need to rely on precision or security of user placement, or physical drift in motor site & coupling characteristic"
Well, this is only an advantage if precision placement is needed. The Verus motor does not require precision placement. You do have a point however about speed drift with wear. But as has been stated elsewhere the drift from wear is so small that it is really a non issue.

"*** No expectation of Speed Deterioration due to wear on compliant drive surfaces. Metal-rubber-metal intermediate wheel contacts anticipate and obviate concerns"
You lost me on this one. Wear and deterioration of the drive surfaces is an issue with any idler or rim drive implementation. If the rubber wheel hardens, gets flat spots or cracks it will always be a problem. I sure don't see how an idler wheel can fix this one.

"*** No independent, and possibly conflicting oscillation --uncontrolled micro-wobble-- afflicting the two (table, motor) independent structures, due to motor-integral design"
Another good point but this is a general issue that applies to any rim drive methodology. So are you trying to imply that a spring loaded idler wheel coupled to a spring mounted motor would be less prone to this type of problem?

"Controlled, adjustable, micro-tension-able COUPLING of the drive-capstan to the platter."
So how exactly does one control the coupling of the drive-capstan with an idler drive? Maybe it could be done by bending or stretching springs. With the Verus motor precise and repeatable control of the drive wheel pressure is obtained by placement of the rubber feet under the motor.

Don't get me wrong. It is not my intent to criticize vintage idler designs. But our goal was not to reinvent what has been done but rather to come up with something better.

 

"control of the drive wheel pressure is obtained by placement of the rubber feet under the motor.", posted on August 15, 2007 at 21:35:37
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000



FOR COMPARISON, THE DRIVETRAIN OF THE EMT 930st

Lotsa topics, but here :
""control of the drive wheel pressure is obtained by placement of the rubber feet under the motor."
.... is the dealbreaker.

We could go thru my list again, and I could make comments on each aspect of your comments.
But what's definitely not going to happen at any point is that the Manufacturer here, that would be you---
...is going to say, 'wow, we really do have a lot more work to do on this idea and we'll just pull it while we change some things'.

You don't care to offer the classic precision of a mechanical idler-drive.
Okay.

You'd like your motor + electronics to take up the slack. Fine.

And, most important .... You'd like to offer your existing customer base a way to pretend they've got the trendy and au courant Idler/Rim sound.
By aftermarket-retrofitting a clumsy device that leans against the platter of the table they alread bought from you. So be it.

Stick with it.
No matter what I may think, you're still light years ahead of HW's "idea". Light years.

A motor from a Directdrive product that skips the precise coupling of an Idlerdrive, calls itself Rimdrive, and leans against the platter of an older Beltdrive product.

Underwhelming ...is only my opinion.

J.D.



.... I was cured, alright.

 

RE: "Feeble", posted on August 15, 2007 at 22:01:03
Ivan303
Audiophile

Posts: 48887
Location: Cadiere d'azur FRANCE - Santa Fe, NM
Joined: February 26, 2001
 Is that a technical term?

It would appear that the manner in which the drive wheel pressure is applied to the rim of the plater may indeed be the weak link.

It is subject to quantum fluctuations in the force of gravity, while a simple spring, which forces the "Idler" against the motor capstan and the platter, is not subject to these small quantum fluctuations.

Clearly the a spring is superior. ;-)

Nobody here but us chickens.

 

Yes, I was just trying to explain the "advantage" of using an idler wheel over ..., posted on August 16, 2007 at 00:48:08
ffrr
Audiophile

Posts: 2631
Joined: May 8, 2004
 driving the platter directly from the motor. What I said is indeed the reason it was done that way in old idler tables like the Garrard.

In summary
- it provides the metal/rubber interface needed for grip
- it allows the dimensions critical to accurate speed, i.e. pulley/platter diameters, to be machined in metal and hence much more accurately than in rubber (this last is more important on models without speed adjustment capabilities)

-----------------

 

Anticipating..., posted on August 16, 2007 at 02:25:11
larryLR
Audiophile

Posts: 1220
Joined: February 10, 2003
 a negative result can be interesting for a bit. But when you get bored with the usual clever-yet-self-congratulatory linguistic showboating in that vein, you could simply try one or both of the recent designs to which you refer... I'm guessing that you've not done so yet. I could be wrong.

I'm pretty sure that you could hear someone else's or work out some kind of return possibility based upon dissatisfaction beforehand. Or is the anticipation of dissatisfaction enough here?

Just imagine the fantastic opportunities in analogy and metaphor that may await you if you actually listen to one or both...
-L

 

RE: pastime, posted on August 16, 2007 at 03:53:51
Elmo
Audiophile

Posts: 7424
Location: So. Calif.
Joined: January 27, 2001
 "The new/retail (market) ... Will find (its) own level. Making (its) own decision. Following (its) own mood." [http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/67/679891.html]

Myself .... never presume to prejudge anything I haven't heard. No matter its design or construct (though I too may comment). More or less why we have moved further along the analog road (even if some have circled roun to the past).

And frankly, I care little for the raging motor/rim/contoller/drive/tire/scope-jpeg/graph/belt/dd battle (or non). Yes, certainly normal curiosity pointed my eyes. But my heart is doing just fine.

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

I've got music ... the rest? I'm too old to split infinity. The years I have left will be spent more in the acquisition, and listening of phonograph records. Not how they're played. Though certainly I've spent my fair share in contemplation.

Go slay that dragon!

 

RE: Interesting thoughts, posted on August 16, 2007 at 06:50:59
Dave Garretson
Audiophile

Posts: 2448
Joined: June 14, 2005
 In addition, your Verus motor has the advantage of simplicity & adaptability to a wide range of modern TTs that may surpass vintage idlers by virtue of modern platter bearings and superior resonance control associated with high-mass platters. Given the number of expensive models in current use, the compatibility of your motor with existing platforms is probably more of a contribution to the marketplace than would have been any "clean-sheet" design for a new TT.

If when used with a modern TT, your rim-drive approaches the speed-stability of a classic idler but is quieter due to the quieter motor in combination with a modern platter & platter bearing & plinth, then the Verus should help the average TT guy separate & understand the relative contributions of speed control and resonance control in his analog system. Unfortunately for some forum posters, a mixed bag of plinths, platters, and motors will make it more challenging to propagate sectarian views.

It's amusing that given the attention to detail that's necessary for vintage restoration & for any analog set-up, JD doesn't accept the small burden of siting a separate motor. With an unsuspended TT on a proper platform, there’s no reason why a rim drive motor should be unstable relative to the platter.

 

RE: Anticipating..., posted on August 16, 2007 at 08:46:45
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000
 It might be profitably pointed out that the Teres 'rimdrive' modification / motor presumes ownership of a full teres beltdrive* turntable already, and that the Vpi one isn't even offered for sale.

Here's the wild part, though : You can discuss ideas and design before the hardware becomes widely or easily available.

Just another futuristic Internet advantage.


(( * which prompts the question, do I want to spend multi-$K on a BeltdriveAdaptedAftermarketToRimDrive table... or maybe consider alternatives that were designed as one turntable ))


.... I was cured, alright.

 

RE: "Feeble", posted on August 16, 2007 at 08:53:25
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000
 Well, springs as components in a precise and minutely adjustable mechanical system that ensures just the right coupling ----
... as opposed to a gravity-assisted 'just-sit-it-down-where-you-can-see-it-rubbing-the-platter' situation .... ?

Well, yeah. Give me the Precise And Minutely Adjustable Mechanism.

Every time.





.... I was cured, alright.

 

RE: Interesting, but, posted on August 16, 2007 at 10:08:13
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000
 Here are some contrary thoughts.

"In addition, your Verus motor has the advantage of simplicity & adaptability to a wide range of modern TTs that may surpass vintage idlers by virtue of modern platter bearings and superior resonance control associated with high-mass platters. Given the number of expensive models in current use, the compatibility of your motor with existing platforms is probably more of a contribution to the marketplace than would have been any "clean-sheet" design for a new TT."

... bizarre argument. A retrofitted aftermarket Add-On is better than a 'clean-sheet' design ?
Kinda like the way you can change your pickup truck into a camper if you buy one of those camper-top add-ons ?
Consider that an existing Beltdrive table may not be the ultimate platform-- it isn't--- to reconstruct into a 'rimdrive' re-think product.

If when used with a modern TT, your rim-drive approaches the speed-stability of a classic idler but is quieter due to the quieter motor in combination with a modern platter & platter bearing & plinth, then the Verus should help the average TT guy separate & understand the relative contributions of speed control and resonance control in his analog system.

If we may presume that by "modern" tables you mean something like the current Teres beltdrive, then you've got problems with this claim.
Two of them right off the top concern the High Mass Platter.
The sound and intact pacing of a classic idler has to do with a medium mass platter. Control and stability issues begin to get outsized as the platter gets outsized.
What was necessary to flywheel-stabilize a beltdrive design isn't necessary for the closely coupled idler style of design.
And those huge, dense, acrylic platters rob immediacy and punch from the sound, in my view.

Unfortunately for some forum posters, a mixed bag of plinths, platters, and motors will make it more challenging to propagate sectarian views.

Not sure at all what this means. Maybe I'm just not one of these 'unfortunate' posters.

It's amusing that given the attention to detail that's necessary for vintage restoration & for any analog set-up, JD doesn't accept the small burden of siting a separate motor. With an unsuspended TT on a proper platform, there’s no reason why a rim drive motor should be unstable relative to the platter.

I know what you mean here. This isn't a pursuit for those who can't reliably manage to get both shoes tied each morning.
But it's worth doing to say to those who would call themselves designers ... 'hey, that's not really a Design. And more importantly, that's no Camper.
That's a pickup truck with a camper-top thing screwed into the cargo bed. And that sucks.'

Your opinion may differ.

J.D.


.... I was cured, alright.

 

Fortunately for all us..., posted on August 16, 2007 at 12:42:12
Dave Garretson
Audiophile

Posts: 2448
Joined: June 14, 2005
 turntables-- particularly the better ones-- are not RVs, pickup trucks, or Carvel ice cream. If they were then every obese, pick-up driving burgher in America would still have a TT.

From what I've read, Teres has tested rim-drive with both heavy and light platters. Most listeners seem to prefer rim drive to belt drive irrespective of platter weight. However the greatest improvement over belt drive was with lighter platters. That the greatest improvement was with a lighter platter may mean (1) that as you say, there is inherent synergy between direct-coupled drive and a light platter, or (2) that with belt drive, a heavy Teres platter had already achieved close to optimal speed stability, or (3) that the superior resonance control of a heavy platter was "weighing in" as a variable in overall performance.

BTW, the composition of the platter (e.g. acrylic vs. wood vs. laminate) is a variable independent of platter mass and should be considered elsewhere.

But it's to be noted that incombination with platters of high & low mass, the sound of Teres's belt-driven tables was improved by switching to a direct-coupled motor.

Has anyone actually refitted a vintage Lenco or Garrard or any other idler with a heroically heavy platter in order to make a determination as to which is best? Perhaps the original choice of medium-weight platters reflected build-to-cost business models or merely prevailing design practices?

As has been remarked elsewhere, there are too many linked variables in the composition of a vintage TT to be certain how much of its performance is due exclusively to idler drive. Put another way, the noise associated with older motors & bearings & transmission systems in these vintage idlers, may add problems that do not afflict modern belt-driven TTs refitted to rim-drive.

Your bias toward "clean-sheet" designs flies in the face of the evolutionary nature of TT design. As HW has said, it's a mature business and designers can make a turntable sound pretty much anyway they want. Why not then the hobbiest himself? I have converted my VPI TNT to thread drive and a rigid suspension and noted changes that I prefer to the VPI "house" sound. I will have been well served if this TT can be further improved with Teres rim-drive while preserving my investment. I will also have fun determining whether or not the VPI TNT flywheel has synergy with a direct-coupled motor. Isn't tweaking of this sort much of what vinyl is all about?

 

How so?, posted on August 16, 2007 at 12:49:03
cbrady
Manufacturer

Posts: 188
Joined: January 14, 2002
 Classic idler and Verus drive in theory both allow for as precise and minutely adjustable coupling as you would care to implement.

I do not know of any idler that however has capability for adjusting this parameter (other than blindly tweeking springs).

Repositioning of the rubber feet under the Verus motor allows for fine tuning of the drive pressure.

So in what way is there an idler advantage for this capability?

But once again we are beating a dead horse. I have spend a lot of time experimenting with drive wheel pressure. Easy to do with Verus by the way. Well guess what, the pressure really does not matter much at all.

BTW: placement of the motor is also quite unimportant. The motor just needs to be placed so that the housing is largely vertical. If the placement is off the motor will tilt slightly but the change in drive wheel pressure will extremely small which in turn is not at all critical.

JD, I can see that this offends your sensibilities, but I don't see that there is a technical issue.

Chris

 

RE: Anticipating..., posted on August 16, 2007 at 12:54:20
cbrady
Manufacturer

Posts: 188
Joined: January 14, 2002
 "Teres 'rimdrive' modification / motor presumes ownership of a full teres beltdrive"

Not at all. The Verus motor will work with any turntable so long as there is space to place the motor next to the platter.

 

RE: "control of the drive wheel pressure is obtained by placement of the rubber feet under the motor.", posted on August 16, 2007 at 13:00:58
cbrady
Manufacturer

Posts: 188
Joined: January 14, 2002
 "You don't care to offer the classic precision of a mechanical idler-drive."

So once more, what lack of precision are you referring to? We get it that you don't like the idea, but still don't see why.

 

It's kind of touching, posted on August 16, 2007 at 13:01:56
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000

THESE AREN'T TOO GOOD AS PICKUP TRUCKS, AND THEY DON'T MAKE GREAT CAMPERS, EITHER !!

In order to avoid mincing detail ad infinitum, I'd say that, regarding your "belt-driven TTs refitted to rim-drive" (as you put it)..........

1... No, and no thanks, I'll stick with my assertions, and re "afterthought" retrofits of turntables designed with something else, something very different, in mind.
(dd motors leaning on beltdrive tables to produce a 'rimdrive' pastiche )

2... It's really kind of touching (& scary)--- the brand loyalty thing that people have with their enablers.
(Probably me too. No exception.)
But to stick to the convoluted logic of the retro-future-aftermarket-product-introduction-product-reversal that this represents for both Teres and Vpi..... on the coat-tails of a perceived market trend... strikes me as really amazing.

Teres & Vpi both have championed the excellence of Beltddrive, for way too many years, and relieved consumers everywhere of a sizeable chunk of their soundsystem finances ----
ON WHAT MR BRADY NOW CALLS THIRD BEST and, well, placing last in the race ?
Astounding that they'd like us to try on the next trend, a complete shift in intent, with such a casual shrug, doncha think ?

Sorry, it is, in fact, a camper-add-on-for-pickup-truck. And the brand-loyalty is touching, all-too-human, and.... daft.

J.D.




.... I was cured, alright.

 

RE: "control of the drive wheel pressure is obtained by placement of the rubber feet under the motor.", posted on August 16, 2007 at 13:13:22
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000
 Uhm, you're making it painful. See photo, previous post.











.... I was cured, alright.

 

"Repositioning of the rubber feet under the Verus motor allows for fine tuning of the drive pressure.", posted on August 16, 2007 at 13:39:14
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000
 Chris,

This has got to be the last go-round on this.

The beauty of idler drive is that it gets you away from the hoplessly feeble "two islands" approach of separated engine and load...
that you have with the standard tiny-motor-and-rubber-band beltdrive situation.

Various idler models I've mentioned do in fact have very precise mechanisms to adjust the coupling characteristic. Internal adjustments, not front-panel-dial kinda things.

This integral precision-mechanics approach, again, is the beauty of these models.
They represent the opposite side of the world from the Slush-Instead-Of-Pace effect you get with beltdrive.

You may forgive me if I'm incredulous that

"Repositioning of the rubber feet under the Verus motor allows for fine tuning of the drive pressure."

or

"If the placement is off the motor will tilt slightly ..."

represents anyone's idea of an improvement on simple rim drive.
Let alone an assault on the qualities of vintage idler-drive.
Especially, as mentioned, with the examples out there being so mechanically impressive (Emts, etc).


I am underwhelmed.

And Harry's, (with the scout-ac-synch) --is laughable.

J.D.


.... I was cured, alright.

 

RE: Anticipating..., posted on August 16, 2007 at 13:44:04
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000
 Any table at all that isn't already a direct drive or an idler drive, that is.

Because--- you just Lean It Against The Platter !






.... I was cured, alright.

 

OK, re:Teres then..., posted on August 17, 2007 at 13:07:53
larryLR
Audiophile

Posts: 1220
Joined: February 10, 2003
 Assume you have not heard the Teres on any 'tt then. Talking about designs/forming a hypothesis is great, but that's only part of the deal.
If you don't actually test your theory at some point (via listening, at least to your own satisfaction), then the hypothesis just sits there. Going too far with just the hypothesis is really pointless. Also starts to look like there's something unrelated to good sound in the mix.

Personally, I like to "test" my theories by repeatedly listening/using the design where possible. That's why I had to eat some crow on the 12" arm thing (x2). In my case, I will try the Teres first, but I am not expecting it to be better. I am afraid that it could somehow compromise the good sound that I've already achieved w/belt drive- I even told CB all about my concerns :). Nevertheless, I will listen to it before I decide.

I'd say that if you want us to believe that you're really concerned with how it sounds/trying to be objective, then listen to one or both on someone else's rig. Don't spend any $, unless it's gas $. If that's not possible, that's cool, just seems like you're really into this and that a listening test would provide more data.

It is my understanding that most people who have heard it like it, but at least one person did not. So, there's actually no unanimity on this one, again as far as I have heard.
-L

 

RE: Teres then..., posted on August 17, 2007 at 16:45:02
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000
 If I were to come out with an aftermarket device that looks ---if only on the internet--- like a dubious proposition,
then, my expectation is that inquiring minds on boards like this one would have pointed questions about it.

Even before hearing it or buying it. It's one of the things this board is for. Discussion.

Obviously we could ALL discuss this thing better if we had extensive experience with it, but so far, I've noticed, exactly no one has stepped up with a personal experience that applies.

If I'm not mistaken, the only person in this thread who has heard the Verus Lean-To-Motor-Wheel is Chris Brady.

And since he sees fit to put up Internet pages that discuss the thing, he's going to get all kinds of commentary about it. No big deal, goes with the turf.

What's wrong is your inferring that I'm not interested enough to listen to the thing, or, as you put it "testing your theory at some point".
Don't be ridiculous, of course I'd like to be testing what I think, if I had reasonable access.

I think this points up another bit of 'Feeble' in these recent rim-drive developements.
From what I can see nobody has easy access to listen to new Teres gear.
And I don't think it's going out on a limb to say that most don't have easy access to evaluate Vpi gear, either.
So, I'm afraid that many will end up buying without hearing, as happens ALL THE TIME in the lp-analog game.

And I'm afraid it all works to the advantage of the manufacturer, not the consumer.
Which is why I bring up topics like this one, which (situation) strikes me as a little bit of Milking The Punters .....

But that's just my opinion.









I was cured, alright.

 

EMT - similar conclusion ...................., posted on August 17, 2007 at 18:18:33
bornin50s
Audiophile

Posts: 282
Location: UK Central
Joined: October 24, 2002
 EMT sometimes considered the best idler drives on the planet, and yet even EMT put belt drive way third, idler second and after serious r&d direct drive at the top.

Teres have arrived at the same conclusion, and it should be interesting to watch the faithful convert belts to Verus over the next few months. Time will tell if the Verus rim-drive is good, bad or indifferent.

Others are working on ways to improve the performance of decks like the 301, using modern ideas and technology to create better motors, bearings etc, and the Verus will be another player in that mix. It won't work so well with the strobe platter though! :)

Verus may become the most important analog development for many years, cheap clones from China will be powering flea-market PL12Ds and allowing any vinyl fan to witness the sound that made records worth listening to in the first place.

The blue touch paper has been lit ................. :)

Or not, well in that case just leave the PL12D and take the Lenco. :)

 

RE: Anticipating..., posted on August 17, 2007 at 23:43:20
ffrr
Audiophile

Posts: 2631
Joined: May 8, 2004
 but don't you need a smooth finely machined outer surface as well? Many turntables do not have this, as they were never designed to be driven on the rim. Turntables with subplatters, turntables with belts that drive on a smaller diameter hub/surface under the platter, internal idler drive tables, turntables that are driven by a circular or square belts that have a notch machined in the outer rim, and direct drive tables, all may not be suitable.

-----------------

 

I heard a prototype rather briefly..., posted on August 18, 2007 at 03:07:38
larryLR
Audiophile

Posts: 1220
Joined: February 10, 2003
 ...for less than one minute in someone else's system. I literally walked in on the listening session just before the Verus/Teres 'tt setup was changed out for the Certus. I cannot comment on it's sound until I hear the final version in my system. That's shortly, and only if I feel like it ;-).

I will say that it was fun watching the installation of the Certus on the Minus-K/SRA platform. And leveling it looked fun as well. I had helped the owner to place his prior Teres 'tt (listed as 340 now I believe) on the Minus-K/SRA the previous day. We leveled it after some, er, effort. It was worth it, in any case.

Anyway, at least several other people have heard the current iteration. I think they hang out on Audiogon...
-L

Now you reply with a Smaugy: "Then I have guessed your riddle!..."

 

I FINALLY GET WHAT JD IS SAYING !!, posted on August 18, 2007 at 20:17:43
Caspyr
Audiophile

Posts: 203
Location: Seattle
Joined: December 28, 2001
 it is not physically or theoretically possible to improve on something that was expensive to begin with.

It is so obvious, don't know why it took me 3 days to figure out. But then again, I have never been the sharpest knife in the drawer.

WHEW! I can finally get some sleep...

 

NICE CAPS !! ................. weak post., posted on August 19, 2007 at 13:02:27
J.D.
Audiophile

Posts: 6873
Joined: August 31, 2000
 Purposefully misconstruing my very clear argument does you no favors.
Actually makes it look like you don't get anything in the thread, to be honest.

Thanks, and-- we'll certainly all be looking for your future thoughts down the road.
















I was cured, alright.

 

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