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New Technics GAE has arrived

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Posted on August 22, 2016 at 09:14:04
bill_stevenson@bellsouth.net
Audiophile

Posts: 419
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Joined: January 6, 2015
 This is a second attempt to post. Sorry if it comes out weird. Anyway, my on-order-for-months GAE arrived last Thursday. Although I have listened to it quite a bit, it is too early to make definitive statements. But, preliminarily, the GAE does sound somewhat better than my old SL1200 MK2 w/full KAB mods. It is cleaner, more open, brighter, more alive. The old one does stand the comparison well though and is no slouch. In many systems the difference might be difficult to detect.

Compared to my VPI Prime, the comparison is going to take longer. The GAE is brighter, lighter, with more air. The VPI seems to have more weight and greater sound stage depth. I think the arm is more damped on the VPI. On percussion the direct drive pace and timing is noticeable compared to the belt drive. This difference is easily heard in direct comparison, with the former having greater precision and the latter having almost an organic warmth. There is no difference in noise that I can detect, both are admirably free of wow, flutter, or rumble. Depending on equipment, musical preference and taste either of these could be a good choice.

I have read many comments concerning Panasonic's decision to leave the overall layout and controls the same on the new GAE as on the older models. For me that was a good decision. I find the sheer ease of set up and use on the GAE unsurpassed by any other. For me the Technics egonomic design is better.

Finally, to the all important question of value. Put simply is the GAE (or the functionally identical G) worth the asking price of $4,000? My Prime cost the same $4K, but then I added a periphery ring ($1,000) Phoenix Roadrunner and Eagle ($700), double belts and pulley ($100). And believe me these two tables are definitely competitive with each other.

Bill

For reference the components in use for this evaluation include: Conrad Johnson, ARTsa (amp), ET5 (line stage), TEA2MAX (phono stage), Sony SSAR2(speakers), and Ortofon Cadenza Black (cartridge), and Audio Sensibility (wires).

 

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Thank you!, posted on August 22, 2016 at 10:57:04
MannyE
Audiophile

Posts: 2088
Location: Miami Beach
Joined: March 4, 2001
 I figured the battle would be between these two decks and it's fortunate you own both! From the very preliminary observations you made it seems it may come down to a preference in style. I don't remember if you have the same cart and obviously too lazy to go look. But I think that will be the ultimate test of the two.

Considering the GAE is kind of an "all in one" and final cost would be a little less (taking the cart out if the equation) it may be the winner for me when I decide to pull the trigger next year. Of course I won't know that until I can hear both for myself.

Thanks for the review/comparison.

 

RE: New Technics GAE has arrived, posted on August 22, 2016 at 11:50:19
Andy43
Audiophile

Posts: 295
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Joined: October 14, 2006
 Thanks for your post. It will be interesting to hear if the sound changes at all after being run in for awhile.
I am considering buying the Technics 1200G so this is very useful to me.

 

RE: New Technics GAE has arrived, posted on August 22, 2016 at 11:54:51
TomWh
Audiophile

Posts: 764
Location: Tucson Az
Joined: August 7, 2003
 Hi Bill

So if you took say 10 good albums you have with tenor sax solos. And you play them which one would sound the most like a tenor sax. It sounds like you heard bright vs heavier sound I am just wondering in your system which one would you choose to sound like the real thing.

Thanks Tom

 

RE: New Technics GAE has arrived, posted on August 22, 2016 at 15:47:11
jkaschyk
Audiophile

Posts: 339
Joined: April 16, 2005
 Thanks for the comparison. Does your SL-1200 have an after market bearing? I ask because the AF gen 3 bearing really woke up my KAB/SL-1200 and made it sound more open and alive. I'd still like to see a pic of the GAE's bearing (out of the base).

 

RE: New Technics GAE has arrived, posted on August 22, 2016 at 18:54:40
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 24045
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 I was considering buying one of the new Technics SL-1200G turntables, but now I'm thinking it might not be a worthwhile investment. It's interesting to read your reports since you have one of the KAB modified SL-1200 tables for direct comparison. Are you able to use the same phono cartridge in both turntables? I have two Denon DL-S1 cartridges and two Audio Technica ART7 phono cartridges so I could make direct A/B comparisons if I had both turntables. Of course, it just occurred to me that it would be very easy to simply switch headshells. Of course, you couldn't play both turntables simultaneously for A/B comparisons, but that might not matter.

Do you ever make digital copies of vinyl. That's another good way to compare turntables. I have 16/44 digital recordings of all my phono cartridges and turntables since I bought my first digital recorder in 1991. I've got Alesis Masterlink recordings of different cartridges in my Sota Millennia from 2003 to the present. It's fun to listen and compare different cartridges I've owned over the years. Anyway, I'll be interested in hearing more of your thoughts regarding the two turntables.

Thanks,
John Elison

 

RE: Double Belt on Prime, posted on August 22, 2016 at 20:52:18
steve.ott@kctcs.edu
Audiophile

Posts: 795
Joined: January 16, 2009
 Bill: what would the double belts/new pulley add to the stability of the Prime beyond what the Eagle does for it? (I have the Prime and Eagle).

Does the periphery ring improve things noticably?

Thanks





 

RE: Double Belt on Prime, posted on August 23, 2016 at 07:20:30
bill_stevenson@bellsouth.net
Audiophile

Posts: 419
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Joined: January 6, 2015
 Hi Steve,

I added the double belts out of an abundance of caution when I bought the periphery ring. The ring adds considerably to the mass of the platter of course. The belt(s) stretch particularly on start up, but also albeit much less, as the platter turns. Think of it this way, the platter slows a bit, the torque of the motor pulls on the belt to correct and the belt stretches. The platter speeds up and the belt relaxes. And so it goes with the belt stretching and relaxing repetitively. Double belts = less stretching. This phenomenon is independent of the Phoenix Engineering or SDS psu systems. Is it a big deal? Of course not.

Bill

 

RE: New Technics GAE has arrived, posted on August 23, 2016 at 07:32:53
bill_stevenson@bellsouth.net
Audiophile

Posts: 419
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Joined: January 6, 2015
 Hi John,

Thanks for your note. As noted, I am using a Ortofon Cadenza Black exclusively for these comparisons. Since this is a very expensive cartridge, I only have one and that is a definite limitation. Your double cartridges and ability to record are both vastly superior to what I have. I am getting pretty good at swapping the cartridge, ~5 minutes, but am not verifying ideal alignment, instead relying on marking the correct position of the cartridge in the head shell. This is close but not perfect and is less than ideal, as I am sure you agree. Anyway it is much easier to simply move the head shell from the MK2 to the GAE and the reverse, than it is to switch to the Prime. This is a major factor in my hesitancy to draw too many conclusions too quickly especially concerning the Prime.

Bill

 

RE: New Technics GAE has arrived, posted on August 23, 2016 at 07:38:51
bill_stevenson@bellsouth.net
Audiophile

Posts: 419
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Joined: January 6, 2015
 No my bearing is stock as that is what Kevin of KAB recommends. My Mk2 was NOS about 2 years ago and was sent KAB for all mods before it was even played for the first time. Too there was a write up in Hi-Fi World on the Mike New bearing a year of so ago and that particular bearing actually resulted in a deterioration in measure performance. So I became reluctant. Then the GAE was announced and I decided to wait for it.

Bill

 

RE: New Technics GAE has arrived, posted on August 23, 2016 at 08:00:03
bill_stevenson@bellsouth.net
Audiophile

Posts: 419
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Joined: January 6, 2015
 I liked your question so much that I decided to act on it. Here is the cast:
Joe Lovano, Yusef Lateef, Sonny Rollins, Coleman Hawkins, Stanley Turrentine, Stan Getz, Hank Mobley, Jimmy Heath, John Coltrane, and a couple of altos as well: Paul Desmond and Cannonball Adderley. If you need the actual albums/titles/dates let me know.

Anyway, I played one track from each all the way through, first on the Prime, and then back through the stack a second time on the GAE. I know this is not a true A/B, but using the same cartridge and the same interconnects on both TTs requires a certain amount of practical compromise. Also, it is how I listen to music anyway (i.e. extended listening to one set up at a time) and this method has proven to work for me when evaluating other components in the past.

Both TTs do a very credible job of reproducing saxophones. For those with any recording experience the difference might be likened to the difference between microphones. They are voiced differently. Again, at the risk of being redundant, the GAE is brighter, breath tones are easier to discern, the VPI seems to have more bass. I think the choice between these two TTs might best be done based on personal preference and, of course, the characteristics of the associated equipment.

Thanks for your very insightful idea and approach. I had an enjoyable time and learned something. I think maybe next I'll do pianos. ;-)

Bill

 

RE: New Technics GAE has arrived, posted on August 23, 2016 at 08:24:29
bill_stevenson@bellsouth.net
Audiophile

Posts: 419
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Joined: January 6, 2015
 Hi Andy,

I think the G is the smart move. It will have the magnesium arm and be functionally the same as the GAE. It will also probably be available at discount. So you are smart to wait. As far as anything changing with run in, don't hold your breath. It has been my experience that this idea that things break in with hours of use is one of the great myths of Hi-Fi. It is a persistent and strongly held view, however, so you are not alone in holding it. I will report any changes that become apparent, but don't expect any.

Perhaps I should add that in my dissipated youth I worked in high end at retail for almost 10 years. The break in thing came up all the time. Never more so than with cartridges. We would take two identical cartridges and set them up in two identical TTs and then listen to verify that they measured and sounded the same. Then one would get run in, usually all day every day for 2 weeks or so, while the second one was left in a cool dark place. Then the faithful would gather and listen using the old double blind test. No one ever did better than guessing could do. We did this often as it generated a lot of traffic in the store. This is offered so you know the basis for my opinion.

Bill

 

RE: Thank you!, posted on August 23, 2016 at 08:34:36
bill_stevenson@bellsouth.net
Audiophile

Posts: 419
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Joined: January 6, 2015
 Hi Manny,

I think you hit the nail on the head, the difference between these two turntables might very well come down to personal preference. I think you are smart to wait a year for the G version if that becomes your preference. It will be functionally identical and could be discounted by then. On the other hand with both the GAE now available and VPI about to launch a new upgraded Prime Signature, you might want to keep your eyes peeled for a used Prime. BTW, to your question, the same cartridge and interconnects have been used in my comparison of these two TTs.

Bill

 

RE: New Technics GAE has arrived, posted on August 23, 2016 at 09:49:07
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 24045
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 I tend to agree with you for the most part regarding break-in. However, there are exceptions. I have experienced true changes during break-in with at least two transducers in all my years as an audio enthusiast. The first experience was with my original Audio Technica OC9 cartridge. It sounded very weird for about the first five or ten hours of play and then it suddenly blossomed into a wonderful sounding cartridge. At first it sounded like two separate mono sources coming from each of my two stereo speakers. There was a gaping hole in the center of the soundstage and it had no life at all. I had never heard anything quite like it from other brand new cartridges. After about 10 to 15 LP sides it began filling in the center of the soundstage and its sound quality began to bloom. After another 5 or 10 sides it seemed to have a full fledged soundstage with excellent imaging and wonderful sound quality. I enjoyed it immensely for about three years before replacing it with a Denon DL-301/II.

The break-in experience also occurred with my new Thiel CS3.7 speakers. I bought them directly from the Thiel factory a few months before Thiel's demise. The speakers I heard in the Thiel factory listening room sounded absolutely outstanding but the ones I bought were perhaps the worst sounding speakers I had ever purchased. Even though I paid only half-price, I got sick to my stomach thinking I had wasted seven thousand dollars. On the third day after buying them my wife and I were watching TV and listening through the Thiels when I asked my wife which speakers she thought sounded better, the little speakers built into our HDTV or the Thiels. I was switching back-and-forth between the two and it was no contest. The little speakers in the HDTV sounded noticeably better and my wife agreed. It actually took about a month of playing the Thiels every day for them to come around. Then they seemed to gradually improve for nearly a year after that. There's no question that these speakers changed character significantly during break-in because we could A/B them with the HDTV speakers and hear the improvement. The Thiels now trounce the TV speakers and they sound better than any speakers I've ever owned. However, it took nearly a month of constant play for the Thiels just to become listenable. It was the strangest thing I had ever encountered.

Consequently, I now know that break-in can be real, but most of the time I tend to agree with your opinion on break-in.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: Double Belt on Prime, posted on August 23, 2016 at 11:34:18
rrob
Audiophile

Posts: 762
Location: Kansas
Joined: February 7, 2010
 Steve, I added a second belt to each side of a dual motor flywheel drive. Rpm went up .300 on my Roadrunner.

Less slippage means better transients.

Randy

 

RE: Double Belt on Prime, posted on August 23, 2016 at 14:27:03
Dave Garretson
Audiophile

Posts: 2448
Joined: June 14, 2005






Years back with a TNT I found it actually was a big deal to dispense with rubber belts altogether and move to a tensioned thread. Easy to do with an outboard motor. Perhaps someone will try something like this with a Prime.

 

Wow!! You actually bought the SS-AR2, posted on August 23, 2016 at 18:36:53
jeromelang
Audiophile

Posts: 2307
Joined: February 2, 2001
 Any photos to share?

Thanks.

 

RE: New Technics GAE has arrived, posted on August 23, 2016 at 19:10:58
Andy43
Audiophile

Posts: 295
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Joined: October 14, 2006
 Thanks Bill! I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts on the table as you spend additional time with it.

 

RE: New Technics GAE has arrived, posted on August 23, 2016 at 19:12:53
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Joined: January 11, 2011
 Break-in is a well-documented effect especially with speakers. In my operating manual for my speakers, MartinLogan specifically advise a break-in time of the order of 70 hours or so at 90dB SPL for the crossover components and bass driver. Prior to that level of use, they warn of a very light bass with respect to the rest of the transducer range.

This would raise the question of how a manufacturer could confirm if a product met specifications! The break-in recommendations suggest that the specifications are not something that a "mint/never used" speaker would be able to meet and that the specifications are inferred from the design prototypes and an assumed characteristic when "new" and unused.

Incidentally, was your OC9 supplied with a calibration trace? I don't know if it is a default thing or not. My OC9MLII had one.
If this were the case, then with respect to cartridges which are calibrated and tested to pass a specification (given that the better cartridges are supplied with a response trace), I would expect them to sound "correct" from the get go with a possible restriction on the maximum signal amplitude that could be tracked for a given VTF within the recommended range.

What characteristics would you think could give rise to the sonic effects you noted with your OC9 that perhaps would not show up with a response trace? I would expect that any anomalies on sonic presentation must surely be due to an interaction with the damping elastomers and suspension causing a mechanical impedance that is not matching with the preferred design values. If this were the case I would have thought that these anomalies would leave a signature on the frequency response trace.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

Wires, posted on August 23, 2016 at 19:32:30
valvesonly
Audiophile

Posts: 757
Location: Ontario
Joined: May 27, 2005
 Off topic.

How much did the audio sensibility improve the sound over blue jeans. Interconnects, speaker or phono cable? Impact in voicing sax or female vocals in particular would be interesting.
.
must..NOT..resist..."upgraditis"

 

RE: New Technics GAE has arrived, posted on August 23, 2016 at 19:50:53
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 24045
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 > In my operating manual for my speakers, MartinLogan specifically advise a break-in time of the
> order of 70 hours or so at 90dB SPL for the crossover components and bass driver.

You're right about break-in although normally I hear very little difference. Other times the change is significant. The manual for my Thiel CS3.7 speaker suggest a break-in period of 400-hours and I can attest to that length of time. ;-)

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: Wires, posted on August 24, 2016 at 06:45:16
bill_stevenson@bellsouth.net
Audiophile

Posts: 419
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Joined: January 6, 2015
 Audio Sensibility cables made a noticeable improvement over Blue Jeans. More open, more revealing. This was for the phono interconnects. I am debating right now whether to buy the rest. Thru 8/31 they offer 10% off, and of course for USA residence the exchange rate is favorable. Also they offer a 30 return privilege, so there is no reason not to try them. Thanks for your question. I have convinced myself to go ahead.

Bill

 

RE: Wow!! You actually bought the SS-AR2, posted on August 24, 2016 at 07:40:02
bill_stevenson@bellsouth.net
Audiophile

Posts: 419
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Joined: January 6, 2015



Wow, someone else knows about Sony SS-AR speakers!

 

RE: Double Belt on Prime, posted on August 24, 2016 at 11:43:25
bill_stevenson@bellsouth.net
Audiophile

Posts: 419
Location: West Palm Beach, FL
Joined: January 6, 2015
 I love it! The lengths we go to in the pursuit of better sound! Thanks for sharing. BTW, I agree with you completely that belt stretch is a factor in the sound. The difference is quite easy to hear between my Prime and GAE, when compared back to back. Without being able to compare, though, it is doubtful that it would even be noticed much less bother most people.

 

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