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Warning to Stanton and Pickering collectors...

118.148.0.87
Posted on June 17, 2015 at 16:44:28
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Joined: January 11, 2011
 ..and anyone with a large stock pile of spare styli....
I advise you to check some samples now - I have a large selection and decided to do a random check. A good proportion of the ones purchased in the 90s are already showing signs of suspension hardening and loss in tracking ability - even my CS100 styli are now unable to track past 70um at max VTF (1.25g).
I had a "perfect" 881MkIIS with perfect cantilever and tip alignment (a rarity for anyone familiar with Stanton Quality!!) which I knew was able to track 80um at 1g when I first bought and tested it; I put it in storage in a sealed box in my cupboard for "future" use about 15 years ago. Now, the frequency response rolls off above 15kHz and it barely tracks past 60um at 1.2g....
Absolutely heartbreaking!
My advice to collectors scouring eBay - don't touch the so-called NOS examples unless you just want to own an object for presentation.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

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RE: Warning to Stanton and Pickering collectors..., posted on June 17, 2015 at 19:00:07
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12655
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 That's certainly not good news, Anthony! :-((

I'm pretty sure the CS100 I had re-tipped just before Christmas is a genuine one ... so how will I tell when the suspension has degraded?

Is it just that I will start to notice that a) it seems to be sounding 'dull' and b) has difficulty tracking all the test tracks?


Thanks,

Andy

 

RE: Warning to Stanton and Pickering collectors..., posted on June 17, 2015 at 19:50:25
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Joined: January 11, 2011
 For a stylus that has been "in use" reasonably continuously it should still be "OK" - I'm referring to samples that were either in sealed cubes and unused, or "barely used" just to test out.

For these styli the most obvious issue was tracking - all needed to be set close to the max recommended value to clear 60um with slight buzzing on 70um. Increasing the VTF made no difference. The frequency response in the HF range also showed anomalies (early rolloff). In the case of my CS100 stylus (that I tested), the tracking ability was limited to 70um at 1.2g, the frequency response showed a little dip around 16kHz, but came back on beam by 20kHz and was nicely extended - phew! So that one still "works" even if the tracking was compromised. However, my 881 was almost a write off. However, not as bad as my 981HZS with original D98MkIIS stylus.... the FR rolls off from 15kHz to be -10dB at 20kHz......
They don't sound "bad" given that they are flat well up to the upper end of the presence band so you wouldn't notice unless you did measurements. However, for me, the tracking ability is a biggy and limits the use of these styli to "rough playback" of "normal" LPs only and not for transcription purposes.

Your CS100 was definitely an original one - the CS100 was released in 1988 IIRC and by about 1997 they had started substituting elliptical tips for the Stereohedron II combined with a longer cantilever. I bought mine in 1998 at the end of the final production run. Mine saw a reasonable level of use back in the day and that stylus will still track 80um at 1g. I also have two fully "working" D88S styli for my LZS body which date back to at least late 80s. They exhibit a slight HF dip of 3dB at 16kHz, but still track 80um at 1g like troopers.

So the moral of the story....don't stockpile and continue using what you have!!
If you are happy with your CS100 now, continue to use it - if you put it in storage, it will likely not be quite the same in a few years time and you may regret (like me) not using it while you have the chance.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

Might consider starting to use Stylast. The Mfgr says it migrates, posted on June 18, 2015 at 09:57:08
Opus 33 1/3
Audiophile

Posts: 4184
Location: D.C. Area
Joined: February 19, 2014
 up the cantilever in use and can lubricate/soften the elastomer suspension. I've used it for 25 + years and have suffered no suspension nasties. I had a very long in the tooth Ultra 500 that still tracked great after nearly 15 years.

Just FWIW.





Opus 33 1/3

 

Is storage the key?, posted on June 18, 2015 at 10:49:44
Bry
Manufacturer

Posts: 5610
Location: S. Florida
Joined: July 21, 2005
 Where I worked we used to store some things in sealed nitrogen packs. Basically, you'd blow Nitrogen in and slowly close off the opening. I wonder if there's a cheap way to do it at home.

 

+1! (nt), posted on June 18, 2015 at 11:34:02
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14381
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001

 

RE: Warning to Stanton and Pickering collectors..., posted on June 18, 2015 at 11:36:17
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14381
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 What do you recommend if you are looking for a stylus to play records now?

Dave

 

RE: Is storage the key?, posted on June 18, 2015 at 16:35:43
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Joined: January 11, 2011
 Storage is absolutely key. However, as most styli I've bought over the years were NOS, goodness knows what environmental conditions the styli were subjected to before I got them!
I live in a temperate maritime environment so we don't get large temperature extremes and the humidity is fairly uniform too. The only thing I wonder about is the suitability of the boxes I am using for storage?
What is your take on sealed lunch boxes? I'm not a chemist, but would there be any vapours given off that might not be kind to the rubber suspension?
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Warning to Stanton and Pickering collectors..., posted on June 18, 2015 at 16:49:06
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Joined: January 11, 2011
 Good question! Anyone who has been using a Stanton/Pickering stylus that hasn't been damaged is better off retipping than risking buying a NOS stylus off eBay. The units I have been "using" still seem fine. It is only the "spares" and unused cartridges which are not what they should be.

It all depends on what your expectations on performance are. The styli "work" but they won't have the original frequency response or tracking ability. 70um is more than enough for typical LP playback, but if you expect to track the 1812 overture, you will be disappointed!
Similarly, the 881 I had claimed a response to 25kHz within 1.5dB. Although the response is flat to about 14kHz, it measures about 5dB down at 20kHz. Tonally it sounds OK so it works fine to play records. However, it isn't the same cartridge it was when I bought it (even in 2001).
The LPGear stylus I bought that claimed to be a D98S replacement was absolute rubbish!

My warning was more aimed at anyone tempted to purchase the apparently "mint" cartridges or NOS styli being offered such as an original 881S which I saw a few weeks ago. This must predate the MkIIS I have which was originally released in 1986. I bought mine from a dealer looking to clear out his old stock back in 2000. I have no idea how old it was prior to my purchase. However, given the degradation in mine, I would be reasonably confident that the 881S would not meet specifications now. Similarly the styli may not work very well at all - like my D98mkIIS.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

+2...nt., posted on June 18, 2015 at 18:30:59
ABliss
Audiophile

Posts: 1580
Joined: March 16, 2001
Contributor
  Since: August 3, 2002
 nt.

 

RE: Might consider starting to use Stylast. The Mfgr says it migrates, posted on June 19, 2015 at 11:55:34
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 24045
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 I've heard people claim that it migrates up the cantilever, but I didn't know the manufacturer made that claim. I find it hard to believe that a liquid would move against the force of gravity on a cantilever that is shaking vigorously from tracing groove undulations, but who knows. I have always gone with assumption that it would migrate down the cantilever onto the stylus groove interface as the record was playing. That's why I always load up the cantilever in hopes that it will last through the entire LP side.

Best regards,
John Elison

 

RE: Warning to Stanton and Pickering collectors..., posted on June 19, 2015 at 12:43:33
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14381
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 I wonder if there are Jico needles that work well.

Dave

 

RE: The Mfgr says it migrates, posted on June 19, 2015 at 13:04:47
genungo
 If there is any oil in the Stylast formula it can certainly creep or migrate upwards against the force of gravity over time. Oil has a way of spreading out in all directions.

The brushing action could also be helping any residual solution to migrate upwards.

 

RE: Warning to Stanton and Pickering collectors..., posted on June 20, 2015 at 01:30:00
PAR
 If continuous use over many years helps to retain the elastomer suspension whereas storage results in its hardening, is there any possibility that sufficient subsequent use of a previously stored cart/styus may help to soften or free up the elastomer?

 

RE: Warning to Stanton and Pickering collectors..., posted on June 20, 2015 at 01:57:54
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Joined: January 11, 2011
 A couple of years ago I was discussing this very issue with Kevin (KABUsa) - at that time, the supplies of genuine product looked like they had dried up so he got in touch with JICO. He tried out a Shibata version and seemed to think it was OK - he now sells them as an option.
From what I have read of the experience of others, they require a bit of breaking in before they become "usable". I don't know if this means the users get used to the sound or whether the stylus performance genuinely improves!
One thing for sure, no 3rd party offering I have seen has the tie-wire suspension so they are unlikely to have an "equivalent" performance to the genuine article. This is why I think it best to retip a known "good" original rather than buy a replacement.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Might consider starting to use Stylast. The Mfgr says it migrates, posted on June 20, 2015 at 02:04:11
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Joined: January 11, 2011
 It must be cantilever design dependent. If the cantilever is a hollow tube, then it is conceivable that the liquid could travel "upwards" through the hollow centre (by capillary action). However, it is not going to happen with a solid cantilever like the boron, sapphire, ruby rods that are often used for retips or more exotic cartridges.

Sadly, in my case, the design of the Stanton/Pickering cantilevers is such that it wouldn't make any difference since the elastomer surrounds the outside of the cantilever. It might work for many MCs like the Denons though.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Warning to Stanton and Pickering collectors..., posted on June 20, 2015 at 02:07:23
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Joined: January 11, 2011
 If my >25 year old Denon DL160 is anything to go by, then the answer is probably no. Although the FR is OK, the tracking remains limited to about 60um and hasn't shown any signs of improvement.

However, if the suspension has hardened to the extent that the frequency response is rolled off (due to overdamping) then one probably wouldn't want to persist using said stylus!

Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: capillary action, posted on June 20, 2015 at 13:11:23
rindolini
Audiophile

Posts: 584
Location: Munich, Bavaria
Joined: August 9, 2007
 Well, one could certainly imagine some capillary action going on with tubular cantilever types - but even if: Given that the back end typically is closed by the magnet or "iron", I don't see how the sucked/crept up fluid there would then be able to reach the suspension rubber. So I'd think that only the part of the fluid that creeps up on the outside of the cantilever could be of any relevance to the suspension rubber.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

RE: Warning to Stanton and Pickering collectors..., posted on June 22, 2015 at 14:31:30
Crazy Dave
Audiophile

Posts: 14381
Location: East Coast
Joined: October 4, 2001
 Mostly I have cheaper models (V-15, etc.) where a retip would cost too much to make sense.

Dave

 

Really?, posted on June 22, 2015 at 21:17:07
Inmate51
 Unless you can back up your assertions with data, your story is no more true than any other story a person could make up about any audio product.

 

RE: Really?, posted on June 22, 2015 at 23:37:39
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Joined: January 11, 2011
 Err, did you even READ my post???!!!
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Warning to Stanton and Pickering collectors..., posted on June 23, 2015 at 07:26:12
neobop
Audiophile

Posts: 492
Joined: September 10, 2010
 Curious, I remember a post on VE by Blue Angel (cart mfg.) He said people gave him bags full of old carts and he would dissect them. Said he never saw a rubber suspension fail, it was usually the tension wire. The thought was synthetic rubber doesn't dry up like natural.

I'm wondering if you gave them a chance to loosen up after sitting so long? I've noticed it usually takes a few hrs playing time to sound right. If so, this is rather disheartening.

neo
BIRD LIVES

 

RE: Warning to Stanton and Pickering collectors..., posted on June 23, 2015 at 17:17:56
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Joined: January 11, 2011
 Interesting that Blue Angel noted that the tie-wire failed rather than the suspension. I'm a little puzzled to be honest unless most of the damage was typically caused by "accidents" in which the cartridge was subjected to excessive downforce. If stainless steel is used as the wire(as many designs use), then corrosion shouldn't be an issue so I don't understand how it fails if used within the normal VTF range, whereas rubber naturally degrades over time. I know that Ortofon have done a lot of research into pre-treatment of the butyl rubber to maximise life, but hardenening over time is inevitable. Van den Hul actually advises placing the cartridge in the freezer for long term storage!

I was trying to find the source, but originally I thought that Pickering/Stanton used neoprene as the elastomer. However, I'm not sure and my recent experience suggests perhaps not. It does seem "era" dependent though. All my low impedance styli (D88S, D4500S, D78E, D3500E) which were likely made in the mid to late 80s exhibit good tracking ability but have the same HF rolloff around 16 to 23 kHz amounting to nearly 5dB suggesting that the tie wire is working OK, but the elastomer has hardened sufficiently to cause an overdamped effect. They are still usable though, and I can still digitally equalize my recordings if these cartridges/styli are used. However, my batch of D6800EEEmkIII styli sourced directly from Stanton and personally certified by John Kuykendall himself in the late 90s are largely unusable now - in fact one of the ones tested had such a low compliance that the LF resonance was placed around 13Hz and I began to wonder if these were in fact D6800EL styli overmoulded in the wrong tool with the wrong labelling!!

"Use it or lose it" is the motto for my collection of cartridges and styli now!
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

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