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why??? don't reviewers review AFFORDABLE tonearms?

23.242.44.203
Posted on March 8, 2014 at 10:59:05
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15485
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 even tas, who does a great job with entry level products, only reviews costly arms. how about some reviews on the Jelcos of the world?

this part of the hobby seems to be relegated to pre-mounted arms and expensive ones (that probably get installed and set up by dealers.

i had some of my best fun with my grace 707 (the XLM was heavenly on it as was my micro acoustics 2002e).
...regards...tr

 

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You still read magazines?, posted on March 8, 2014 at 11:23:26
jusbe
Audiophile

Posts: 5950
Location: North Island
Joined: April 4, 2000
 It was for reasons such as this that I stopped. In fact, I stopped reading them when Listener magazine folded. And I believe that magazine, if any if them would, may have met your request.

Peer-to-peer reviews are probably more useful, using an aggregate of opinion to begin one's own research.


Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."


 

Define affordable, posted on March 8, 2014 at 11:26:39
Curious
Dealer

Posts: 5878
Joined: April 28, 2010
 Lets say affordable is any arm less than a grand. How many arms are we talking about? The Regas have been reviewed. Sumiko? There are two arms from them worth reviewing. There are two arms from Pro-Ject worth reviewing. Then who? I'm not interested in Chinese arms.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."

 

RE: how many "affordable" tonearms are there?, posted on March 8, 2014 at 11:37:23
user510
 Like Curious says; "define affordable". In 2014 what price could earn a living for someone producing a tonearm of at least adequate qualities?

If affordable is the goal, then 2nd hand "vintage" could be the obvious target.

When the word affordable is included with the word "new" then I think the field narrows down to two obvious candidates; Jelco and Rega.

anyone care to name some others?

-Steve

 

why??? don't reviewers , posted on March 8, 2014 at 11:45:49
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15485
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 affordable---uhhh..300-1000 bucks would be very welcome. the 500 dollar average could be a center for those that are starting hobbyists. mounting and aligning carts seems to me to be a rewarding and essential part of this hobby.

yes, i like reading SOME grossly unaffordable reviews but am overwhelmed by the exceedingly long winded diatribes that could be more succinct like the way hp an RH present them.

we need more "entry level" product reviews. some are giant killers and some not but engaging these products for yourself in your formative years of audiophilia will give you valuable experience like the first time you tried separate components. aaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhh, the satisfaction. yes, there will be disappointments and those can be just as beneficial as the "VOILA" moments.
...regards...tr

 

RE: why??? don't reviewers review AFFORDABLE tonearms?, posted on March 8, 2014 at 12:52:20
xsb7244
Audiophile

Posts: 429
Location: Hawaii
Joined: May 17, 2011
 There is only one affordable tonearm, the DIY Nanook 219 tonearm. Get somebody to build it for you.

nanook

 

There aren't very many affordable tonearms left! ;-) /nt\, posted on March 8, 2014 at 12:59:10
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 24045
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004

 

Yep, I think you're right. , posted on March 8, 2014 at 14:01:06
Rick W
 There's damn near no new (even used) arms available for the kind of $$$ Tommy's talking about. Dunno how anybody could bring a $500 or less arm to market successfully nowadays. You'd have to sell a lot of 'em, which means a big operation like Rega. Start-up money, manufacturing facilities, ad budget, getting reviews........dunno who'd wanna take that gamble now in the digital age?

 

Well, there's this thing.....link........, posted on March 8, 2014 at 14:02:25
viridian
 A bit home brew, but I suppose that's what you will be getting for the scratch:

 

I agree ..., posted on March 8, 2014 at 14:44:44
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13630
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 I don't understand why Jelco arms have not been reviewed. If the rags can devote page space to speakers, integrated amps, turntables, cartridges, etc., under $1K, then why not Jelco arms?

I had a SA750D and it seemed like an outstanding value. There sure are a lot of good things said about Jelco arms here on the VA. Not sure why the press has ignored them.

Dean.


reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

Possibly because they won't get any ad revenue?, posted on March 8, 2014 at 14:53:47
kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 10417
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001
 I did not know they still made tone arms!

 

RE: why??? don't reviewers review AFFORDABLE tonearms?, posted on March 8, 2014 at 15:04:19
WntrMute2
Audiophile

Posts: 788
Location: Detroit
Joined: September 16, 2002
 About $1,400 US dollars. A bit more than the 1K mentioned but worth every cent.

 

therein lies the problem, posted on March 8, 2014 at 15:10:06
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15485
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
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 We should be made aware by the reviewers. Certainl some of themhave occupied our shoes.
...regards...tr

 

I don't think that they have a North American distributor, do they? nt, posted on March 8, 2014 at 15:14:29
viridian
 nt

 

I think you are right ..., posted on March 8, 2014 at 15:18:55
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13630
Location: CT
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Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 ...and that may well be the reason. I guess only goods with US distribution get reviewed by the US press?

Found a review on line. See link below ...

Dean.


reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

They have 8 models ..., posted on March 8, 2014 at 15:30:20
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13630
Location: CT
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Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 ...which you can see in the link below.

No ad revenue is another very good reason !

Dean.

Edit: Technically, just five models, with three available in a choice of black or chrome.




reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

Not forgetting the OEM ones they make for Ortofon et al. -t, posted on March 8, 2014 at 15:38:42
jusbe
Audiophile

Posts: 5950
Location: North Island
Joined: April 4, 2000
Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."


 

Yep, I forget those..., posted on March 8, 2014 at 15:45:14
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13630
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 Thanks for the correction.

Given how big a player they are in the market and how long they have been around, I think they deserve more attention in the press.

I would imagine the majority of owners of Sumiko (MMT and FT-Series) and AudioQuest (PT-Series) arms have no idea they were made by Jelco. I know we all know, but I consider us the minority.

Who else did/does Jelco build for ?

Dean.






reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

"Who else did/does Jelco build for ?", posted on March 8, 2014 at 17:34:14
Waxxy
Audiophile

Posts: 2654
Joined: July 19, 2011
Contributor
  Since: November 22, 2011
 From the website in the link,

"Jelco makes tonearms for many of the big name companies in analog audio, both current and past. They made the famous Sumiko MMT tonearm and we believe the Linn Ittock II tonearm as well. Here are some of the companies who have marketed Jelco tonearms under their own names: Koetsu, Sumiko, Audioquest, Linn, Oracle, Ortofon, Ariston, Roksan, Revolver, Mission, and Graham."

Here's a pic of the Koetsu Jelco.



 

The Robin was on the Stereophile 500 list, posted on March 8, 2014 at 18:01:13
goblin141
Audiophile

Posts: 620
Location: So California
Joined: December 26, 2000
 until it was discontinued. it was a jelco arm.

 

Why?, posted on March 8, 2014 at 18:02:40
Goober58
 People gotta have someone tell em what tonearms to buy and not to buy?

Really we're better off without reviews.

A dealer I was working with at one time told me a new CDP came into his shop and he thought it was great. He played it for several of his customers but no one thought much of it and he sold 0 units. Then the glowing Stereophile review came out people flocked his store to hear the unit, most of who agreed how great the deck was and he sold several units.

And people whine and cry about Machina Dynamica........

 

that was very..., posted on March 8, 2014 at 18:57:12
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15485
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 succinct, John.
...regards...tr

 

Why?, posted on March 8, 2014 at 19:06:51
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15485
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 i don't thgink i should have to buy every arm that appears on the horizon just to find out that it's not very good. that's what reviewers are for, to give us the chance to see what someone thought of the DUT before unnecessarily shelling out clams.

i HAVE bought things on intuition like the little red bellari when it first came out. mikey fremer only reinforced my feelings about it and it did make me feel pretty good about my verdict BUT that was only $160 (being early DOES have its benefits).
...regards...tr

 

the terminator was only..., posted on March 8, 2014 at 19:10:24
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15485
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 $600 when it was introduced. i would love to have been an early adopter on that but i am up to my ears in TTs and was then too.

i believe olddude WAS an early adopter, maybe he has something to say about this.
...regards...tr

 

right ..., posted on March 8, 2014 at 19:12:43
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15485
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 what is WRONG with American distributors that they don't pick up on something like that?
...regards...tr

 

the ad revenue.., posted on March 8, 2014 at 19:14:01
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15485
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 would come in once the distributors placed the ads.
...regards...tr

 

it just seems that...., posted on March 8, 2014 at 19:18:29
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15485
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 you might just do as well on your own. i did often wonder if it could have been worthwhile to try out.
...regards...tr

 

RE: why??? don't reviewers review AFFORDABLE tonearms?, posted on March 8, 2014 at 19:50:28
bluemooze
Audiophile

Posts: 269
Location: New Jersey
Joined: November 18, 2009
 Which reviewers are you talking about?

How do you know that affordable tonearms don't get reviewed?

Please name some specific affordable tonearms that you know for certain have never been reviewed?

 

AFFORDABLE tonearms?, posted on March 8, 2014 at 19:59:54
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15485
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 if i knew of those affordable tonearms, they would probably have been reviewed and that's how i would know of them!
...regards...tr

 

Thank you ..., posted on March 8, 2014 at 20:08:19
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13630
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 Seems Jelco, like Darlene Love, is 20 feet from stardom.

Dean.




reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

Because, posted on March 8, 2014 at 20:17:15
ydavid
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Joined: December 14, 2005
 professional reviewers, for the most part, are our of touch with economic reality and, if left to their own devices, would steer this hobby into the realm of grossly overpriced irrelevance.

 

RE: Why?, posted on March 8, 2014 at 20:23:38
Goober58
 "i don't thgink i should have to buy every arm that appears on the horizon just to find out that it's not very good. that's what reviewers are for, to give us the chance to see what someone thought of the DUT before unnecessarily shelling out clams."

Sure reviewers are good for that!

"i HAVE bought things on intuition like the little red bellari when it first came out. mikey fremer only reinforced my feelings about it and it did make me feel pretty good about my verdict BUT that was only $160 (being early DOES have its benefits)."

And good for that too!

Now I might be going out on a limb here but I'm betting in the big picture they've done a heck of alot more reinforcing a purchasing decision than they've exposed bad purchasing decisions? Hmmmm....what do you think?

And really if there's 10 low cost arms available and a glowing review exists for just one of them which arm is gonna sell the most?

 

A bit like the RS Labs RS-A1 tonearm. Sorry I sold mine -t , posted on March 8, 2014 at 20:42:12
jusbe
Audiophile

Posts: 5950
Location: North Island
Joined: April 4, 2000
Big J

"... only a very few individuals understand as yet that personal salvation is a contradiction in terms."


 

RE: I don't think that they have a North American distributor, do they? nt, posted on March 8, 2014 at 21:13:16
Waxxy
Audiophile

Posts: 2654
Joined: July 19, 2011
Contributor
  Since: November 22, 2011
 I'm not sure who's importing them, but Audio Sensibility in Canada claims to be a dealer.

 

Because............., posted on March 9, 2014 at 00:35:30
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15485
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 well, if stephen mejias were to approach this hobby from a more hands on angle, it would encourage the new entries to pursue the real fun of it all.
...regards...tr

 

They do,we just can't afford them!, posted on March 9, 2014 at 06:12:30
cpielock@eaglebrook.org
Audiophile

Posts: 524
Location: western mass
Joined: May 11, 2004
 Ya!

 

UK perspective, posted on March 9, 2014 at 06:45:48
markinuk
Audiophile

Posts: 456
Location: Surrey
Joined: January 13, 2003
 Hi

Here in the UK, the market in affordable arms is dominated by Rega, as it has been for many years. Of the recent models, the RB303 (about $580-590 in the UK - the US price would be higher once imported, I imagine) was much reviewed when it came out. The newer RB808 (almost exactly $1000 in the UK) hasn't been AFAIK, but then most UK reviews of Rega products these days are either of the new range of complete turntables or the electronics.

Then there are the Origin Live arms, which I believe are also available in North America. These used to be modified Rega designs, but are no longer (Rega stopped supplying parts, for one thing). The Alliance, Onyx and Silver arms would count as affordable in this context, and have all been reviewed in the UK press (I use an Onyx myself).

It's a shame the Jelco arms don't get the exposure and, it seems, market presence they deserve in the US and Canada, but they are much respected over here, and have frequently been reviewed, as have the Ortofon OEM variants.

Of course, the UK hi fi market is much smaller than the US, Germany and Japan (for example), which has serious impact on the pricing structures and marketing strategies in the industry.

Mark

 

I paid around $1K for my T3Pro four years ago., posted on March 9, 2014 at 08:50:47
olddude55
 The current price as of the exchange rate today is about $1250. That's pretty damned good considering that the arm wand has been completely redesigned.
Is it affordable? Needle Doctor sells 11 arms for less than the T3 and 35 arms are priced higher than the T3. You make the call.

 

RE: why??? don't reviewers review AFFORDABLE tonearms?, posted on March 9, 2014 at 09:51:17
Fred J
Audiophile

Posts: 21808
Location: Southern Wisconsin
Joined: April 24, 2002
 You're missing the entire point.

Stereopyle and the other audiophool
rags are all about conspicuous consumption for the validation addled
anal retentive upscale sheeple types, the I may be hung like a field mouse and am scared of my own shadow types but I have deeper pockets than than you little people. ;-)

 

So sorry you feel left out., posted on March 9, 2014 at 10:02:59
Goober58
 Stereophile is a marketing vehicle for the audio industry - this is fact not some conspiracy theory as many Stereophile lovers would want to suggest. Don't blame them for the industry leaving you behind. Why in the heck would the industry focus on cheapsters who are more likely to buy used or vintage to save money no matter how good new affordable products become.

No doubt if Stereophile advertisers were interested in more low priced component reviews you would see more of them. If audiophiles actually bought enough of them the industry would care and you would see more reviews. Entry level stuff competes with used/vintage stuff - why would any much less many manufacturer want to compete there when the more expensive markets are where the money is made at.

It's not rocket science that equipment manufacturers and magazines are out to make money. Quit whining about it - if you care enough why not start some kind of internet project dealing with low priced equipment on your own or with some other pals.

 

Maybe I'm reading a different Stereophile ? ..., posted on March 9, 2014 at 10:27:29
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13630
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 My 2013 issue of Recommended Components has reviews of 3 phono stages under $200 and another 8 under $1K. There is a recommended cartridge under $100 and 5 more under $500.

There are only two arms recommended under $1,500, the Rega and a VPI.

Stereophile spends plenty of time reviewing entry level equipment of all sorts. Just not tonearms, apparently.

Why in the heck would the industry focus on cheapsters who are more likely to buy used or vintage to save money...

For the same reason Car & Driver reviews Ferraris, Lamborghinis, Maseratis, Hyundais and Kias. Their readership is broad, so they cater to everyone and not all "cheapsters" buy used or vintage. Many are not "cheapsters" at all, just folks with shallow pockets or a lesser interest in high performance.

Dean.







reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

perspective, posted on March 9, 2014 at 10:35:28
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15485
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 no argument, the Rega is affordable and excellent but there in no vertical adjustment for VTA and the shimming process is time consuming. this could be more discouraging to the beginner.

...regards...tr

 

I suppose that would depend on ones skill set and how good that thing sounds. nt, posted on March 9, 2014 at 10:43:22
viridian
 nt

 

different Stereophile ? ...thanks Dean, posted on March 9, 2014 at 10:50:07
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15485
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 for bringing this subject back away from the misguided fantasy of the conspiracy theory crod.

i think this part of the discussion should be shifted to Critics Asylum. it would be good to hear some of the writer' opinions.
...regards...tr

 

RE: perspective, posted on March 9, 2014 at 11:00:51
Travis
Audiophile

Posts: 6170
Location: La Grange, Texas
Joined: November 25, 2001
 Why couldn't you set it and forget it?

Oops, audiophiles.


"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

Yeah, but........., posted on March 9, 2014 at 11:16:41
Rick W
 Different view of the 2013 S'phile rec. comp.

 

RE: UK perspective, posted on March 9, 2014 at 11:54:23
markinuk
Audiophile

Posts: 456
Location: Surrey
Joined: January 13, 2003
 Hi

True, the lack of VTA adjustment on a Rega can be tiresome, but there is a wide range of aftermarket devices to add this facility fairly inexpensively. This has even proved possible with the later 3-point Rega mounting.

The Origin Live arms have VTA adjustment built-in, fortunately, as do the Jelco arms, of course.

Mark

 

AFFORDABLE tonearms?, posted on March 9, 2014 at 12:30:49
Steelhead
Audiophile

Posts: 863
Location: AK
Joined: December 11, 2003
 HiFi Tommy,

Thanks for the link. Enjoyed the brew with you in that crazy city you reside in.

Here is a short review. I had a Sumiko premier MMT which replaced a stock thorens tp 16? and then a Infinity black widow tonearm. I much preferred the MMT over those 2. Happy until falling under the fr spell in the 80's. Fast forward a couple of decades and due to a generous friend ended up with a fr64fx with the b60 base. Freakin killer. Are there better ones out now, hell if I know, probably! Done, end of review.

look forward to hoisting another one with you and another Amoeba crawl.

Peace Out.

 

I'm NOT an audiophile , posted on March 9, 2014 at 13:01:03
Curious
Dealer

Posts: 5878
Joined: April 28, 2010
 I love the gear, yes. And VTA (especially on the fly) is important to me because I use multiple carts, and I use them often. And, I play records that are pretty thin and pretty thick. And when you're using a cart like an Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, you want VTA to be right. Incorrect tracking angle means tracking too heavy of too lightly, and that's not good for stylus life.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."

 

American Distributors aren't stupid- the problem is with Jelco, posted on March 9, 2014 at 13:11:25
Curious
Dealer

Posts: 5878
Joined: April 28, 2010
 I'm a dealer, and I have tremendous respect for Jelco. They have been used for decades by other manufacturers because of their ability to manufacture good, damn good and sometimes great arms.

But the product is all over EBay, Audiogon and elsewhere. They don't control their distribution in the west, they don't have the compunction to do so, so why should a dealer take on a profitless line? It's called the Hi-Fi business, not the Hi-Fi charity.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."

 

RE: Maybe I'm reading a different Stereophile ? ..., posted on March 9, 2014 at 14:15:29
Fred J
Audiophile

Posts: 21808
Location: Southern Wisconsin
Joined: April 24, 2002
 Dean
I enjoy reading about the megabuck exotica like everyone else, but
the sanely costed gear reviewed in Stereopile is token at best, and IMO that stuff generally just happens to be marketed by important advertisers.

Regards Ferd

 

Hardly conspiratorial , posted on March 9, 2014 at 14:17:32
Fred J
Audiophile

Posts: 21808
Location: Southern Wisconsin
Joined: April 24, 2002
 That's patently absurd on it's very face !

 

I am usually the odd man out ...., posted on March 9, 2014 at 14:24:50
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13630
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 I don't read any of the mega-buck reviews. I skip to the part where the price is listed and if its over $1500, I move on.

I like the pictures though. Truthfully, I wonder why I even subscribe. It must be the pictures.

Dean.


reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

Makes you wonder why anyone would be a Denon dealer. (nt), posted on March 9, 2014 at 14:25:45
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13630
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 .


reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

RE: So sorry you feel left out., posted on March 9, 2014 at 14:25:48
Fred J
Audiophile

Posts: 21808
Location: Southern Wisconsin
Joined: April 24, 2002
 I believe you're confusing the term listeners with cheapsters.

 

RE: I'm NOT an audiophile , posted on March 9, 2014 at 15:23:41
Travis
Audiophile

Posts: 6170
Location: La Grange, Texas
Joined: November 25, 2001
 I apologize for calling anyone that dreaded name.

I'm REALLY not an audiophile since I only use one cartridge.


"If people don't want to come, nothing will stop them" - Sol Hurok

 

RE: Makes you wonder why anyone would be a Denon dealer. (nt), posted on March 9, 2014 at 15:57:57
Curious
Dealer

Posts: 5878
Joined: April 28, 2010
 Denon is typically gotten through distribution and is spec'd into low end surround systems by electrical contractors and alarm guys who, as you can imagine, know as much about competently installing a decent A/V system as a plumber knows about idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."

 

RE: Yeah, but........., posted on March 9, 2014 at 16:05:59
Fred J
Audiophile

Posts: 21808
Location: Southern Wisconsin
Joined: April 24, 2002
 Rick

I'm going to set up THE Stereopile AAA Recommended component system as soon as I'm made a full partner in the Mendelian Cartel ;-)

Regards Ferd

 

Yes, but why ..., posted on March 9, 2014 at 16:19:15
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13630
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 ...do all the high-end US Internet sellers sell Denon cartridges (at MSRP) when they are available from other Internet sellers at near dealer cost?

Just playing devils advocate here. If folks will pay full pop for a Denon cartridge from a reputable dealer, why not a Jelco tonearm? They are in about the same price range.

Dean.


reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

I stand corrected...., posted on March 9, 2014 at 17:04:27
Goober58
 "I believe you're confusing the term listeners with cheapsters."

Fair enough. Believe it or not it wasn't my intention for "cheapster" to be a derogatory.

 

Kind of off topic but.., posted on March 9, 2014 at 17:14:38
Goober58
 "My 2013 issue of Recommended Components has reviews of 3 phono stages under $200 and another 8 under $1K. There is a recommended cartridge under $100 and 5 more under $500."

What would be more interesting to me is how many under $200 phono stages they had to review to come up with 3 recommendations. Same thing for under $1k cartridges.

Since we get the rcl wouldn't it seem reasonable we should get a Not Recommended Components list AND a Not Reviewed Components list.

Personally I think people interested in affordable gerar should be pleased as punch few inexpensive components get reviewed - but that's just me.

 

Great idea !!! ..., posted on March 9, 2014 at 17:33:37
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13630
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 I love the idea of an NRC (Not Recommended Component) list. A not reviewed list might get tiresome as I think it would include 95% + of industry production.

Maybe Sam Tellig should start his own rag. Limit MSRP to $3K with a concentration on sub $1K components.

Dean.




reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

I don't think authorized Internet dealers are selling a lot of Denon carts, posted on March 9, 2014 at 17:45:09
Curious
Dealer

Posts: 5878
Joined: April 28, 2010
 Audiophiles are pretty savvy about buying gear on the cheap, so I doubt Needle Doctor and Acoustic Sounds is selling very many. It's easy to show a line listed item on a website. And they probably sell a few. I think the Jelco 750 in particular is so prostituted that its pointless even showing it.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."

 

I would like to add, posted on March 9, 2014 at 18:00:38
Curious
Dealer

Posts: 5878
Joined: April 28, 2010
 That of all the tonearm manufacturers out there, Jelco is in a position to design at least 2 unique arms aimed specifically at the Euro-American market. They could establish firm policies with dealers, make it a profitable line and build something really sharp that folks would want. They could probably market their own table. If I was a marketing guy, I would love to market a Jelco table/arm combo. My ad would show Jelco's pedigree with all the great arms they built for others, then themselves and finally-BAM! The return of an affordable, ALL-JAPANESE deck. I would totally play up the vintage pedigree, name-drop like a mo-to and get lovers like you and me of the great Japanese decks of the 70's and 80's pumped up.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."

 

More devil's advocate ..., posted on March 9, 2014 at 18:25:24
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13630
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 usahifi.com sells the 9" SA750D for $530

affordableaudio.biz sells it for $550

audiosensibility.com sells it for $530 Canadian

The only one sold on eBay in the last 30 days that I could find sold with a Buy It Now of $515. (Audio Dragon in Hong Kong)

There are several currently listed on eBay from $530 to $569. (usahifi and audiodragon)

The last one listed on Audiogon (November 2013) that I could find was listed by Affordable Audio at $550.

This seems like very tight pricing to me. I'd like to know how much margin is in the arm at $550. 30 points? 40 points? More? Less?

It looks like there are very few sellers of the Jelco and my guess is that is because Jelco is an unknown entity to the majority of the market, not because there is no money to be made.

There are no reviews. Jelco does no advertising. The seller has to create the market or hope potential buyers are enthusiasts who have done their homework.

When I was in retail we sold tons of the Sumiko MMT, FT3 and FT4... and the Audioquest PT5, PT6, PT7 and PT9 (was there an 8?) because Sumiko and Audioquest were recognized names due to the arms having been reviewed and marketed.

Would we have sold as many if they were branded as Jelco with no reviews or ads ?

Dean.


reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

Works for me. (nt), posted on March 9, 2014 at 18:26:40
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13630
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 .


reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

Nuts, ain't it? nt, posted on March 9, 2014 at 18:47:16
Rick W
 nt

 

Actually I think it might be a great opportunity for some of the guys around here. , posted on March 9, 2014 at 18:51:26
Goober58
 I don't know if you ever saw the Tuner Information Center. Kind of like that with more shoot-outs and head to head comparisons of lots of equipment not just tuners. Hobbyists not professionals....

 

Yea sure..., posted on March 9, 2014 at 18:55:09
Goober58
 "for bringing this subject back away from the misguided fantasy of the conspiracy theory crod.

i think this part of the discussion should be shifted to Critics Asylum. it would be good to hear some of the writer' opinions."

Isn't that exactly what this topic does not need? Geez when the F are audiophiles gonna take their hobby back????

 

I'd guess its a 15 to 20 point line at best, posted on March 9, 2014 at 19:44:46
Curious
Dealer

Posts: 5878
Joined: April 28, 2010
 And because of that and the fact the market knows what these arms had been selling for, there's no way they can just raise the price to make it profitable for Rep Firms to offer it to dealers. They would have to design new products that are profitable while raising the price of the existing arms, cut off all Ebay-type activity, and take a loss on their end to absorb the price increase. Manufacturers have done that before to varying degrees of success.

Do you believe Jelco makes a better arm than Rega, dollar for dollar? I don't like Rega tables at all, but I do like the arms.
"Hope is a good thing. Maybe, the best of things. And no good thing ever dies."

 

RE: AFFORDABLE, posted on March 9, 2014 at 23:33:05
hifitommy
Audiophile

Posts: 15485
Location: canyon country califiornia, orig from buffalo ny
Joined: June 9, 2000
 even used though, the FR arms are out of my financial reach at this time.


lookin' forward to seeing you soon. perhaps at Kevin's.
...regards...tr

 

I don't know ..., posted on March 10, 2014 at 05:39:08
reelsmith.
Audiophile

Posts: 13630
Location: CT
Joined: June 7, 2005
Contributor
  Since: January 19, 2010
 I've only had two Rega arms. One was stock on a Rega table (not a fan) and one was modified and on a TD124. I didn't own either table long enough to get a sense for the capabilities of the arms as I did not compare them to anything. I can't even remember who made the modified arm. I always forget their name.



The Jelco seems better built to me with tighter tolerances. Not that this necessarily translates to superior sonics.

I'm also not a fan of any arm that is wired all the way through and does not allow for changing/replacing head shell wires. I'm not into soldering minuscule clips onto tiny wires.

Dean.


reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

HiFi+ did a real number on the Robin, posted on March 10, 2014 at 05:53:07
Dave Pogue
Audiophile

Posts: 11689
Location: DC Area
Joined: October 9, 2001
 Jelco may have decided they had had enough reviews.

The difference between that one and the review in Stereophile always puzzled me.

 

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