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Stanton/ Pickering cartridge loading

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Posted on November 29, 2013 at 14:55:01
tubeflash
Audiophile

Posts: 223
Joined: December 22, 2001
 i have a D4500 stylus and intend to use it in a stanton 881s or a pickering 4000 cartridge body. i will not be playing SQ or CD-4
records., just stereo lps. should i load the cartridges at 47K
or 100K. thanks

 

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RE: Stanton/ Pickering cartridge loading, posted on November 29, 2013 at 20:07:11
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 24045
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Cartridge loading is determined by the electrical properties of the coils within the cartridge body. Both cartridges are designed for 47k-ohm loading. The stylus/cantilever assembly will not change the recommended load even if the stylus/cantilever assembly is designed for a different cartridge. Of course, you can always experiment with loading and pick the one that sounds best to you. It will not hurt the cartridge to experiment.

Good luck,
John Elison

 

RE: Stanton/ Pickering cartridge loading, posted on November 29, 2013 at 20:18:14
Lew
Audiophile

Posts: 11011
Location: Bethesda, Maryland
Joined: December 11, 2000
 In addition to what John wrote, the choice of 47K or 100K will also depend upon capacitance. With no added capacitance, you could choose one or the other by ear. With many of the top MMs, I prefer 100K and no added capacitance, but that's just me, my system, my ears. I've never done any measurements.

 

RE: Stanton/ Pickering cartridge loading, posted on December 1, 2013 at 17:57:57
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Joined: January 11, 2011



Hi

I presume you are referring to a D4500Q? Just a headsup that the 881/XSV4000 bodies are not an ideal match since the coil inductance is nominally 510mH (and DC resistance is 900ohms) which puts the electrical resonance of these bodies around 13kHz depending on the load impedance of your phono stage. The original XUV had a coil inductance of 290mH (DC resistance 600 ohms) and when driving a 100k input impedance would take full advantage of the mechanical resonance which is not as damped so that the 30kHz carrier is recovered at a greater amplitude.

The short answer is that while it will "work" the frequency response will not be flat and may have a lump in it!

If you can get a CS100 or XSV3000 body then you will get a very flat response with a load of 47k. (See attached jpg which is from the white noise phasing test on the Ortofon test disc) I use one in my CS100 and it sounds wonderful and tracks like a leech. I tried it in an 881 body for laughs and was not surprised that it sounded a bit "odd". Bright, but shut in. Not a good pairing to be honest. Unfortunately I don't have the white noise analysis for this pairing to hand, but from memory there was a lump around 14kHz and then a roll off.
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Stanton/ Pickering cartridge loading, posted on December 2, 2013 at 06:01:32
neobop
Audiophile

Posts: 492
Joined: September 10, 2010
 Thanks for the info on inductance/resistance of these. The VE database lists the 881 as 450mH, 900 ohm. Trying to make sense of the rest of it.

Some Pickering carts with both stereohedron and quadrahedral tips have response to 50K. I suspect they're similar tips, if not the same. Are the higher inductance models (4000 also 50K) better with stereohedron than quadrahedral?

I suspect your shunt capacitance is too high or you're getting a mechanical resonance around 14K. Higher inductance bodies require careful capacitance load. Electrical resonance has the affect of lowering the mechanical high frequency resonance. This tends to augment some part of the treble and roll off the highs above that.
neo


BIRD LIVES

 

RE: Stanton/ Pickering cartridge loading, posted on December 2, 2013 at 14:32:26
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Joined: January 11, 2011



That is likely due to a confusion with the 980/981 which was 450mH with 800ohm DC resistance. However, it is distinctly possible that the calibration certificate may have that coil inductance - mine is 499mH. The XSV3000 I have is 270mH. However, I have seen spec sheets for the XSV3000 quoting 290mH (which the XSV5000 is), suggesting that the spec may have changed over time with some models. With the 881, I don't think so - every model I have encountered has always been 510mH.

Although the bodies are identical, the XSV4000 was quoted to 36kHz and the 881 to 25kHz - I suspect the Pickering styli have less mechanical damping. It is also possible that (since no confidence limits are specified), the Pickering models meet the spec with a wider (relaxed) tolerance band. You will notice that the Pickering equivalents to the Stanton models always had a slightly wider bandwidth quoted. However, measurements confirm that this was at the expense of a flat response. This is historical - I have a review comparing a Stanton 681EE and Pickering 750E and the response curve for the Stanton is very flat, but the D750 shows a rising response to +3dB at 19kHz. It seems this is still the case: For example a D625 stylus of mine (which is identically spec'd in terms of compliance to the D680) has a bandwidth quoted to 25kHz compared to 20kHz for the D680. A white noise analysis of my D625 showed a rising response up to 19kHz then rolling off. The D680 is much flatter in response.
To answer your question, the Quadrahedron does give a better performance on inner grooves. However it should be noted that although visually very similar, the styli components between the models within the brand family (i.e Stanton or Pickering) are not identical - there are variations in cantilever length, stylus mounting (nude/bonded) and diamond grade.My replacement CS100 styli for example were transparent, "wet" looking (jewellery grade) nude mounted diamonds mounted on a short cantilever. In contrast to this, my CS100 cartridge purchased in 1996 came with a much longer cantilever and an industrial grade bonded stylus!! Within the same series there are variations: My D88S and D81S styli are very clearly bonded industrial grade whilst my D83S and D84S have nude jewellery grade tips! (The D84S and D81S are designed for the same body, but the D84S is for a P-mount version of the 881). My experience is that Stanton have a very chequered history with poor quality control and it is hard to know what are simple cost cutting changes and what are design specific changes.
In the past, like you say, they probably just made batches of styli then tested them out for mechanical resonance after manufacture and matched them to a body with the appropriate electrical characteristic to meet spec and charged appropriately. For example a stylus that wouldn't meet the D7500S spec became a D4500S and a reduced bandwidth spec to 40kHz on the low impedance XLZ body. I use that as an example because the inductance is only 1mH (3 ohms) so there is no electrical augmentation and the response is purely due to the stylus assembly and the mechanical characteristics.
An interesting patent from 1985 (US 4,509,159) discloses a process to control the aluminium oxide layer on the cantilever to control the stiffness to weight ratio.
Regards
Anthony
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Stanton/ Pickering cartridge loading, posted on December 3, 2013 at 15:03:52
neobop
Audiophile

Posts: 492
Joined: September 10, 2010
 Thanks, that's interesting stuff. A few years ago I picked up a NOS 980LZ. I think it was curiosity mostly, as I wanted to hear a LOMM.

The original stylus was unavailable so I got a Pickering D3001E. Then I bought a Jico D98 shibata replacement stylus. Interesting comparison here. The Jico has a decent quality bonded diamond but the platform looks rather tall. The 3001E is a good quality nude round shank. The difference in cantilevers is dramatic. The 3001 is shorter and much thinner. I imagine the eff tip mass of the Jico is much higher. It sounds pretty good though. I guess compared to other brand cantilevers it's still relatively short. Of course the Pickering outperforms it.

Reading about the hit or miss quality of orig styli evokes thoughts of a re-tipper. I get the feeling this cart has potential beyond that with any orig stylus. "They" say the Stereohedron (I, II) is like a Shibata, corresponding to a Shibata 1 and a Shibata 2. What's a Quadrahedron, a line contact?
I think it needs a Microridge or similar on that tiny Pickering cantilever. Maybe an exotic cantilever would put high freq res out in the stratosphere.

neo


BIRD LIVES

 

RE: Stanton/ Pickering cartridge loading, posted on December 3, 2013 at 18:25:57
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Joined: January 11, 2011



Patent US3871664 (Hughes) gives a design which is almost certainly the Quadrahedron based on the purpose of the invention. The faces are cut in the same way as the Stereohedron so the two are substantially similar. The main difference is in the radius for the scanning surface. The patent discloses 0.2mil "in a successful practice of the invention". The major radius is 3mil and the scanning surface is 1mil. The Stereohedron is 0.3milx2.8mil. Not sure what the scanning surface length is. Stereohedron II in one of my data sheets is 0.2milx3mil and I can't remember the scanning length.
The Shibata patent (although clearly an inspiration for the Stereohedron) is actually very different. The Stereohedron is formed from concave cuts made on the "sides" (which contact the groove). The cross section is a parallelogram so that the intersections of the cuts form a contact surface in the geometric centre of the cone if you were to chop the tip off. The Shibata is formed by flat cuts on the BACK of the stylus cone such that a scanning surface is formed in a plane that is a defined distance forward of the geometric centre of the cone. This forms a "heart" shaped cross section if you were to chop the tip off.

A Microline on a Stanton is exactly what I have been wanting too! I have been talking to Garrott Brothers about stylus options, but they won't confirm if either of their Microscanner or Microtracer are the same as the Microline. I will get one done with them and I am going to get Expert to put a Paratrace (which I understand is like a VdH) on another unit. They are much cheaper. Garrott are more expensive than Soundsmith.

Did you get your 980LZS body from KAB? Kevin put me on to one and I am forever grateful to him! Best sounding Stanton I think.

As far as the the effective mass goes, the Stanton design was amongst the lowest mass I've seen (0.2mg). The patent I quoted on the anodising thickness is another key parameter that defines the "sound" you hear. Just a warning, if you ask them to change the cantilever, they will literally "chop" off the old one and glue the new one in the stump!
The stylus shouldn't alter the tonal quality noticeably unless the tip mass is changed signficantly - it only changes the tracing ability. Changing the cantilever may change the tonal quality and not necessarily for the better depending on how the stiffness to mass ratio is shifted from the original design value. Try and find the best aligned stylus assembly and just retip if I were you.
Something else to be aware of,the SRA on virtually all my NOS Stanton and Pickering styli are not set optimally. Garrott Brothers told me they could set the SRA to whatever I wanted (except for the Fritz Geiger of course!).
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Stanton/ Pickering cartridge loading, posted on December 4, 2013 at 09:38:25
neobop
Audiophile

Posts: 492
Joined: September 10, 2010
 It seems the Quadrahedron is the same or similar to the Stereohedron II. I guess line contact is as good a description as any. The Shibata is famous (or infamous depending on your point of view), for having different front/back facets or asymmetrical profile. This gives it a curved contact area with the record as it spins. Seems to me to sweeten or soften the highs a bit. Not always a bad thing.

Yes, I was fortunate to contact Kevin at KAB while he still had the 980. He also sold me the D3001E. You mentioned something about inner groove mistracking. I haven't experienced anything like that. This cart tracks like a banshee. Maybe with a poor quality stylus?
I wouldn't be inclined to change the cantilever on the Pickering stylus unless it failed. The Jico is a different story. Only problem is I don't particularly like the Stanton plastic stylus holder.

I've heard that Expert Stylus does a nice job and they're reasonable. There's a new guy in Washington state who is getting kudos for re-tipping/rebuilding - also reasonable. Might be worth checking out.
neo


BIRD LIVES

 

RE: Stanton/ Pickering cartridge loading, posted on December 4, 2013 at 17:35:44
flood2
Audiophile

Posts: 2619
Joined: January 11, 2011
 I've never quite undestood why Shibata styli are still promoted.. It is the stylus chosen by Ortofon for the 2M Black but there are many better designs out there.
I'm sure your 3001E is sounds fantastic. The tracking ability of the suspension is excellent. It is the tracing ability on the inner grooves that you may find wanting when the wear becomes signficant. In general, elliptical styli (typically 0.3x0.7mil) will have greater tracing distortion than the advanced designs with extended contact areas. The 3001E is a 0.2x0.7mil cut so it is quite possible that while it is still "fresh" it will sound clean and undistorted on inner grooves. However, the wear on an elliptical will become noticeable after ~200 hours as a "flat" is worn on the scanning surface and the wear on the record will be occurring at a much greater rate in the contact zone.

I have what I presume must be a JICO from That Company That Supplies a Vivid Line stylus. I don't want to mention the company by name because it isn't really their fault...but the stylus is terrible in all measurable aspects of IM distortion, tracking ability even after very precise measurements with microscopes and shadow graphs..

The suspension design does not use a tie-wire - I haven't had the nerve to chop up my USD100 to see the construction, but I think it is reliant purely on an elastomer rather like the Ortofon magnetic shunt models like the OM5 etc.

Personally, I wouldn't buy another JICO for Pickering/Stanton, let alone spend more $ on replacing the cantilever or retipping one!

Thanks for the link to the Washington retipper!
Cheers
Anthony
Regards Anthony

"Beauty is Truth, Truth Beauty.." Keats

 

RE: Stanton/ Pickering cartridge loading, posted on December 4, 2013 at 21:40:03
neobop
Audiophile

Posts: 492
Joined: September 10, 2010
 I think Ortofon uses the Shibata for precisely the reason I said. It sweetens the top slightly, while retaining detail. The 2M Black and Bronze have identical bodies and some people say the Bronze is a bit aggressive with its Fine Line.

The Vivid Line isn't made by Jico. LpGear won't reveal the source. All we know is, it's made in Japan. It's a shame you got a bad one. Some people report excellent results. I haven't tried it.
Jico might be phasing out the Shibata. Seems they stopped producing some of the Shibata replacements. Gear is buying the Vivid to replace it. Gear is a dealer/distributor for Jico, AT and probably Nagaoka, and I think they sell to other companies like TurntableNeedles.

I don't have many hours on the D3001. It does sound good. Unless there's a sharper elliptical I haven't heard of, the .2 x .7 has the smallest footprint of any tip. As luck would have it, I was just given a nice conventional microscope with USB capability. I'll have to adapt it for stylus examination. I used to do that professionally.

BTW there's another guy in Germany, Axel, who has a wide assortment of cantilevers and tips. He is highly recommended and speaks English. Waiting time might be worse than Soundsmith, not sure.
Good luck with your styli,
neo


BIRD LIVES

 

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