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New VPI Tomearm Ass End Photos.

174.106.1.80
Posted on September 21, 2013 at 11:16:50
Seadog
Audiophile

Posts: 609
Location: The Beaches of North Carolina
Joined: April 14, 2007
 This morning I helped a close friend unbox his factory fresh VPI Classic 4 with 2 Tonearms.

Tonearm #1 is the new Classic 4 arm [10.5"]. I thought you all might be interested in the fine tune VTF adjustment incorporated in the counterweight (turns very smoothly). This a real help in making those final dial-in adjustments. Also note that the arm has anti-resonance coating.

Tonearm #2 is the VPI 12" 3-D arm with 200g CW. This is the shiny version. Also available in flat black.

I also noted that the venerable Shure See-Saw VTF Gauge has been replaced by a really cool digital gauge. [No photo - sorry]








Christopher

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RE: New VPI Tomearm Ass End Photos., posted on September 21, 2013 at 12:55:20
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3560
Joined: April 23, 2007
 i have a VPI 3D....a real bitch to set up. The rear counterweight has internal rubber (or similar) 0-rings that grip like a bear. You simply cannot get anything close to precision. Harry recommends oiling the internal grippers, but it only partially solves the problem. Harry says that there will be a new rear counterweight assembly (perhaps the one shown on your photo of the Classic arm - I never saw a VPI counterweight like that one)...anyway, Harry says the new one will permit precision adjustments. Also.....I would check with Harry as to the counterweight of your 3D. It comes standard with a 120 gm weight, though I needed a 200 gm weight....depends on your cartridge.

 

RE: New VPI Tomearm Ass End Photos., posted on September 21, 2013 at 13:31:14
Seadog
Audiophile

Posts: 609
Location: The Beaches of North Carolina
Joined: April 14, 2007
 That is very interesting about the 3-D CW issues. I believe you may be correct in thinking the fine tune adjustment may be the next step in VPI CW evolution.

The 12" 3-D arm came with the 200g CW standard.

A decade or so ago, VPI produced a few CWs with a similar fine tuning VTF weight. If you Google VPI Counter Weight you may find some photos of it. Perhaps HW is digging into the archives for some new ideas?

The only draw back I have encountered with unipivot JMW arms is the difficulty of setup. I own or have owned the 12.5, 12.6i, & currently the 12.7i. The Soundsmith device helps a great deal. The enclosed VPI digital VTF gauge is a step forward from the Shure seesaw. And, now the fine tune CW . These are all developments that definitely assist with setup.

I did have HW make me a 200g CW to swing my 13g Koetsu Tigereye. That much mass at the end of a 12" arm needs a burley CW. Some enthusiasts claim that using 2 small CWs one fully forward and the 2nd positioned to achieve proper VTF is a better solution than going the single 200g option. I do not know why this would be true.


Christopher

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RE: About that Counter-intuitive...., posted on September 21, 2013 at 15:34:45
amioutaline?
 The description on the Soundsmith site isn't simple enough for me.

I've gotten pretty good at moving the azimuth ring, when I finally get the right size Allen key in hand and then loosen the ring and not the VTA screw, but the counterweight is a PITA.

I try to find a set screw position just loose/tight enough to not lose the setting of azimuth while setting VTF, then when I do and tighten it down, the action of turning the Allen key loses the setting I slaved over!

I've gotten my 9T really well dialed-in now but with plenty of expletives deleted!

Does the Counter-intuitive remedy that? Would O-rings help?

 

RE: About that Counter-intuitive...., posted on September 21, 2013 at 15:55:01
Seadog
Audiophile

Posts: 609
Location: The Beaches of North Carolina
Joined: April 14, 2007
 I use the VPI azimuth ears at the base of the wand also - exactly as you do. I do not use the Soundsmith device but I have attended up to 4 audio shows a year including RMAF and Peter's Counterintuitive CW is often present. It looks much more complicated than it really is. If you do not care about repeatibilty of settings, you just clip it onto the VPI CW and twist left or right to zero in azimuth...of course, you do this after you have dialed in VTF with the Soundsmith weight attached. Since azimuth is going to vary from LP to LP, all those electronic devices are rather silly...IMO. I use the VPI metal rod & a mirror. More often than not just the mirror.


Christopher

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RE: About that Counter-intuitive...., posted on September 21, 2013 at 16:06:40
taxdog
Audiophile

Posts: 127
Location: North Carolina USA
Joined: June 21, 2004
 I have a counter intuitive and yes, it does work as advertised and is simple to use. With the indexed 'wrap' you get easily repeatable settings. Buy it. And note that it comes with two counterweight wraps so one unit handles two arms.

 

RE: About that Counter-intuitive...., posted on September 21, 2013 at 16:23:27
taxdog
Audiophile

Posts: 127
Location: North Carolina USA
Joined: June 21, 2004
 Also note that the C shaped weight moves forward/back as well as rotationally around the counterweight, so it handles fine tuning VTF as well as azimuth.
Greg

 

Greg is absolutely correct...., posted on September 21, 2013 at 16:36:03
Seadog
Audiophile

Posts: 609
Location: The Beaches of North Carolina
Joined: April 14, 2007
 Watching exhibitors setting up their VPI Tables using the Soundsmith Counterintuitive CW, it is just that easy. I had forgotten about sliding the CI-CW forward or back along the circumference of the VPI CW for fine tuning VFT.

Excellent point, Greg. Well done.


Christopher

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RE: New VPI Tomearm Ass End Photos., posted on September 21, 2013 at 18:54:26
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3560
Joined: April 23, 2007
 The counterintuitive comes on the standard counterweight for the 3D arm. it doesn't fit on the 200 gram counterweight. Harry told me that the new counterweight for the 3D is only a few weeks away....is going to send one for me. What/who is the manufacturer for the electronic stylus guage.

 

RE: New VPI Tomearm Ass End Photos., posted on September 22, 2013 at 01:06:28
Seadog
Audiophile

Posts: 609
Location: The Beaches of North Carolina
Joined: April 14, 2007
 I did not see the Counterintuitive CW included during the unboxing yesterday. Maybe we missed it. Perhaps it is because the 3-D arm came with the 200g CW?

Why doesn't the Counterintuitive CW fit the 200g VPI CW? Longer VPI CW diameter resulting in greater circumference?


Christopher

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RE: New VPI Tomearm Ass End Photos., posted on September 22, 2013 at 13:51:43
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3560
Joined: April 23, 2007
 The counterintuitive is too small - won't fit the diameter of the 200 gm weight. (Probably smaller ones as well.) It does fit the 120 gm weight and does make setup MUCH easier.

 

RE: About that Counter-intuitive...., posted on September 22, 2013 at 13:58:24
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3560
Joined: April 23, 2007
 Hi Seadog.....I can't tell you enough of the importance of the Fozgometer. Though you think you have your arm precisely set for azimuth with the rod..even a little off makes a very large difference in the sound. If you don't want to buy one, then borrow one from someone.

 

RE: About that Counter-intuitive...., posted on September 22, 2013 at 14:01:56
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3560
Joined: April 23, 2007
 Ameodeline.... The counterintuitive just makes it easier. You can slide the auxiliary weight back and forth, or turn it around its axis easily so that you don't have to move that rear counterweight and mess up your basic configuration.

 

RE: About that Counter-intuitive...., posted on September 22, 2013 at 18:18:43
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 24048
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 Hi Seadog,

If I were you, I'd simply tilt my cartridge one degree each way and listen. If you hear a significant difference then buy a Fozgometer. It does the job correctly, but I've never heard a significant difference from adjusting azimuth away from level. Of course, that doesn't mean much these days because everyone hears differences that I don't hear. Therefore, I would recommend conducting some simple tests of your own before spending a bunch of money. Even better, perhaps SgreenP@MSN.com would lend you his Fozgometer to try out before buying one.

Good luck,
John Elison

 

RE: About that Counter-intuitive...., posted on September 22, 2013 at 20:14:11
SgreenP@MSN.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3560
Joined: April 23, 2007
 Absolutely

 

RE: About that Counter-intuitive...., posted on September 22, 2013 at 22:15:47
Seadog
Audiophile

Posts: 609
Location: The Beaches of North Carolina
Joined: April 14, 2007
 Hello John, I assure you that I have no intention of buying or using the Fozgometer. If I was going that route I would simply use the oscilloscope we have in the shop.

It is my understanding that a certain USA turntable manufacture who you from time to time engage in spirited back-&-forth with uses the mirror/rod/ears setup procedure. As you know, I have seen many TT dealers at the shows set up TT's just as I do. No doubt the electronic meters provide an important service. Notwithstanding, Bob & I have probably set up close to 100 TT's (most VPI's) using the "old school" technique.

Besides, azimuth will vary with each LP.

After the Classic 4 returns from duty at RMAF we will work on the Effectice Mass project regarding both the 10.5" & 12" 3-D arms we have been discussing. I did not take a photo of the 10.5" 3-D because it was still packed from the Washington DC show. We have already re-packed the Classic 4 in its traveling Pelican Case as it will leave for Denver a week from Monday.

Hope you are well my friend. Oh, Heard from Ken Willis the protractor manufacturer a week ago. He has a new job which brings him to the Beaches of NC & he plans to come by. You & Ken had some great conversations at the Chicago show...wasn't it Chicago?


Christopher

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RE: New VPI Tomearm Ass End Photos., posted on September 25, 2013 at 06:58:13
Not Yet There
Audiophile

Posts: 541
Joined: April 8, 2006
 Why the need for a new "fine" VTF adjustment? Did VPI elimnate the fine VTF adjustment that was found in the end stub?

What's up with the lemo connector, is it new?

 

It's Still There..., posted on September 25, 2013 at 14:12:02
Seadog
Audiophile

Posts: 609
Location: The Beaches of North Carolina
Joined: April 14, 2007
 ...but I have never had much success using that stub. My personal experience is that I found it very difficult to turn with the Allen Key. At best, it was awkward. The Fine Turning CW is an elegant and convenient way to dial in that precise VTF without having to repeat the Azimuth alignment steps.

I have probably set up between 75-100 JMW Arms over the years and the VPI Fine Turning VTF CW is a welcome addition. That combined with the SoundSmith Counterintuitive CW makes JMW unipivot arms a breeze to set up.


Christopher

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RE: About that Counter-intuitive...., posted on September 25, 2013 at 15:51:30
rosendds@frontiernet.net
Audiophile

Posts: 599
Location: North East
Joined: November 13, 2010
 Can Azimuth be adjusted with a oscilloscope?

 

RE: About that Counter-intuitive...., posted on September 25, 2013 at 16:56:09
Seadog
Audiophile

Posts: 609
Location: The Beaches of North Carolina
Joined: April 14, 2007
 Yes. It works on the same principle as the dedicated meters just not quite as compact. You can adjust to null or least crosstalk. John Elison has covered this in several of his writings.

I have seen some very compact 'scopes on EBay that may prove more convenient to use. If you already have an oscilloscope that is the way to go. However, it is not worth buying one just this one purpose.

mini 'scope: http://www.ebay.com/itm/SainSmart-ARM-DSO201-Nano-Mini-Portable-Pocket-Sized-Digital-Oscilloscope-Kit-/280801651529?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item4161152b49


Christopher

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RE: About that Counter-intuitive...., posted on September 26, 2013 at 01:34:17
John Elison
Audiophile

Posts: 24048
Location: Central Kentucky
Joined: December 20, 2000
Contributor
  Since: January 29, 2004
 An oscilloscope doesn't have the sensitivity to measure directly from the phono leads. You must measure at the output of your phono stage. You can then measure crosstalk and adjust azimuth to minimize crosstalk. You can also measure the phase of the crosstalk. Here are some examples.

 

RE: It's Still There..., posted on September 26, 2013 at 12:06:18
Not Yet There
Audiophile

Posts: 541
Joined: April 8, 2006
 Thx Seadog. How does the fine VTF adjustment work? Is it threaded on a rod, or friction fitted?

If you use a Soundsmith CI, do you still feel the need for an addtional fine vtf adjustment?

 

Fine Tuning VPI VTF CW, posted on September 26, 2013 at 16:12:39
Seadog
Audiophile

Posts: 609
Location: The Beaches of North Carolina
Joined: April 14, 2007
 To: Not Yet There - See if this answers your questions.

VPI Fine Tuning CW: It is fine threaded. Very smooth operation. Close tolerances. Beautiful workmanship.

SoundSmith Counterintuitive: Primary duty is to adjust Azimuth without having to move the VPI CW. Many of us, including me, have difficulty rocking the VPI CW left & right without changing the VTF. I have set up over 75 VPI JMW Arms and I often have to reset VTF after adjusting Azimuth. Then, of course, after resetting VTF the Azimuth changes...a vicious circle ensues. The SS Counterintuitive eliminates all that. Worth every penny. No, I do not have the SS CW - most of the people I setup arms for do not have them. However, if you ever get to the audio shows early you may witness VPI dealer/loaner setups using the SS CW. I cannot recommend it enough (check Greg's (aka Taxdog) posts above on his personal experiences).

Yes, you can slide the Counterintuitive along the lateral axis of the VPI CW to achieve VTF adjustment, but the VPI Fine Tuning CW is a much more elegant and effective way of doing that.


Christopher

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RE: Fine Tuning VPI VTF CW, posted on September 27, 2013 at 08:05:52
rosendds@frontiernet.net
Audiophile

Posts: 599
Location: North East
Joined: November 13, 2010
 Thanks for posting that link John.I would still like to know how azimuth is set by ear,if that is possible.

 

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