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Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak

93.139.52.180
Posted on June 2, 2013 at 18:03:10
vital ital
Audiophile

Posts: 534
Location: croatia
Joined: January 2, 2004
 I have tried the search and sort of came up with some helpfull posts on the subject.
I would like to try adding the extra loop to my negative speaker terminal but was wondering if adding a solid core wire would be ok? I have some old audioquest i could take apart for the experiment. What works best? Thanks in advance.

v.i.

Million miles from home.

 

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RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on June 2, 2013 at 18:18:45
Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002
 If the "loop to neg terminal" tweak is in the signal path, I would opt for the best sounding speaker wire conductor, which is most often sourced from solid core speaker cable, IME.

If so, you might like to use a double run of the conductor for the negative terminal, since the return leg is said to benefit most from a low-impedance path to the outputs of a power amplifier.

If the "loop to neg terminal" conductor is wired in parallel, I really dunno.

 

If you are referring , posted on June 2, 2013 at 19:43:55
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 the ground tweak initiated by Bud Purvine, the key to its effectiveness is surface area of the wire used. Bud recommended Litz type multi stranded wire, where individual strands are individually insulated.

I have used a wide copper foil with good results too (4 inch wide copper tape).

Solid core wire, and just a few strands may have limited effectiveness, but to be honest, I haven't tried it, having starting off with copper tape 1 inch wide. Recommendations are again from Purvine who first published the tweak.

Silver wire does work better, BTw....


PS: you could try and make the loop from the entire length of cable. That ought to give it enough surface area.

 

RE: If you are referring , posted on June 2, 2013 at 22:25:09
Dry Ginger
 Thank you, UncleStu, for the idea of 1" copper tape.

Three months ago I spent hours taking lengths of Category 5 cable apart (the Litz multi-wired concept) and braiding and looping its component wires for this purpose only to be disappointed with no audible benefit.

Tonight I simply cut my remaining 4' of one-inch copper-tape in half and attached one of the 2' lengths to each of the negative speaker terminals and the detail of the music instantly became more accessible...a noticeable and desirable improvement. So, for lack of access to 4" wide copper-tape, tomorrow I'll get some more one-inch copper-tape, double-side it, increase the length of each piece and extend the concept to the negative terminals on the speakers to see whether that increases the scale of this welcome improvement. Tweaks are introduced, some leave with disappointment and then successfully return on occasion thanks to kind assistance...

 

Seems most any metal stuff works. The lengthh is to play with. Try a variety of lengths, posted on June 3, 2013 at 00:13:19
Elizabeth
 I use a bunch of ferrites bundled to geter with silver plated copper wire. Lots of 'extra' wire stuck in ferrite tubes to add ""electron mass'' (My crazy words)
Idea of all of it is to add a source for a 'buffer' of electrons..
This is totally my notion of what it does..
So anything with a ready supply of electrons, wire, metal objects..

 

RE: Seems most any metal stuff works. The lengthh is to play with. Try a variety of lengths, posted on June 3, 2013 at 04:11:41
pegwill


 
Hi Guys

Perhaps you could anser these questions

Does the copper tape have to be insulated or is it just left bare?

Does it have to form a loop or is it just left as a 2ft length?

Many thanks

 

RE: If you are referring , posted on June 3, 2013 at 06:19:39
bartc
Audiophile

Posts: 4424
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: November 25, 2002
 You can do this with pretty much any multi=strand copper wire as a test. If that doesn't work, then I wouldn't bother going fancy.

Since you did get the proper effect from some versions of the Purvine tweak, it IS worth your while to keep experimenting.

I started with the plain wire. Was astounded by the effect, so got the Litz and did it properly and it got even better. Have never tried flat tape.

 

Seems like an antenna to me, posted on June 3, 2013 at 07:03:25
reuben
Audiophile

Posts: 1649
Joined: September 28, 2004
 I try to filter out RF interference with an R-C filter across the speaker terminals.

-reub



Dark energy? Ridiculous!
We live in an electric universe.

 

RE: If you are referring , posted on June 3, 2013 at 08:06:19
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Unclestu I tried the 2" copper tape as a substitute for my litz wire 9v battery connected to negative terminal and it was interesting because although it sounded good it sounded more mid-rangy than my wire / battery combo. What was your experience with copper tape vs litz wire? Similar/different?

 

tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on June 3, 2013 at 09:56:31
DaveT
Audiophile

Posts: 1126
Location: Mid Atlantic (Wash, DC Area)
Joined: September 25, 2000
 It is best to use stranded wire. All you need is 26-inches of common zip cord (wire used for ac power connection to most appliances).

1. Split the wire such that you have two 26-inch pieces of zip cord.

2. Strip about an inch of insulation off of the 4 ends.

3. Connect the ends of each of the lengths of wire together to make 2 loops.

4. Attach a loop to the negative terminal of each speaker either at the speaker or at the amplifier (your choice). You will need more loops if more speakers than basic stereo are being employed.

5. Enjoy the tweak.

If you enjoy what you hear you can either try some of the other topologies or just make loops to attach to the negative terminals of the speaker; amplifier; and analog input sources. Loops can be applied to digital sources, but read up on the ramifications before doing so.

The loops can also be added internally to speakers. Again, read up on what is involved or post a question, here, in this forum.

Please, post your impressions of the tweak.
DaveT

 

RE: Seems like an antenna to me, posted on June 3, 2013 at 10:02:11
DaveT
Audiophile

Posts: 1126
Location: Mid Atlantic (Wash, DC Area)
Joined: September 25, 2000
 Rueben,

Your initial impression may be right, but this tweak works, whether it be an antenna or other phenomena. Try the simple zip cord loops for yourself then either praise or poo-poo the tweak.

These loops are not applied between the speaker terminals, but only on the negative terminal.
DaveT

 

Copper Tape???, posted on June 3, 2013 at 10:20:53
DaveT
Audiophile

Posts: 1126
Location: Mid Atlantic (Wash, DC Area)
Joined: September 25, 2000
 Unclestu,

I have tried the ground loop tweak with, CAT5, zip cord, and Litz wire, but I have never tried copper tape. I read about the new Mapleshade offering and your post. The Mapleshade offering reads as if they are streamers and not loops.

Are your tapes formed into loops or are they just "streamers"?

Have you experimented with other widths of tape?

I have 1/2-inch wide copper tape on hand. Will I have to use multiples to get to the 4-inch equivalent surface area?

TIA
DaveT

 

RE: tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on June 3, 2013 at 13:49:47
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 Cool...

You just described what I tried a while back. I'm glad to know that it works since mine did nothing. Now I know I did it reasonably right so that's a good data point!

Rick

 

Well, different peoople have tried various methods. All are based on a length of metal, posted on June 3, 2013 at 15:23:45
Elizabeth
 Most use copper as it is the easiest to have a bit laying around. Most have some copperwire around. Insulated, bare does not matter much. The basic fact of a bit of metal. on thenegative terminal seems to improve the sound.
Some tried and use a loop of wire, some other forms. Some a strip of copper. Others one side of a nine volt battery.
IMO it is pretty wide open to experimentation.

 

Agree it is counterintuitive to place an antenna there.. but it works. nt, posted on June 3, 2013 at 15:24:58
Elizabeth
 .

 

nice. Yes different people find some variations can work better than others , posted on June 3, 2013 at 15:30:42
Elizabeth
 Amazing how it alters depending perhaps on the different amplifiers and speakers in use.
Glad you did not give up after one try, and found another which worked for your system.

 

Just get a low value ribbon coil, posted on June 3, 2013 at 19:31:34
rickmcinnis@dogwoodfabrics.com
Audiophile

Posts: 3041
Location: Atlanta
Joined: December 15, 2003
 And you will have plenty of the stuff and it won't have any sticky stuff on it.

Great for loudspeaker wire below 500 of so, too.

I like the 12 gauge though my ground tweaks are from Ric Schultz and are the litz style. Great way to get some cheap copper foil.

Then use 3M blue painters tape as an insulator.

 

RE: Copper Tape, posted on June 3, 2013 at 19:57:57
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 I have rolls of tape in various widths. I simply coiled them into a loop leaving the separation tape on for experimentation. They worked very well.

I tried both 1 inch and 4 inch: both worked although the 4 inch seemed to offer greater improvements.

 

Btteryground tweak, posted on June 3, 2013 at 20:14:17
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 I haven't written much about following up on the BGT, primarily because I am now a dealer once more and manufacture the things.

That being said I will Add a few details this once.

1. The cap is almost exactly as sensitive as one in a power supply. While I originally used large uF electrolytics (10KuF) I find the use of a bypass cap necessary. You need to use a a good quality audio coupling type cap ( lower voltage, of course).

For video and digital components a smaller bypass in the .1 to .2 uF range works very well. I use .15 uF film types. When this is used for audio I find a rather unpleasant upper midrange emphasis. In a male/female duet, the males almost disappear. I guess since digital/video components are essentially working with very much higher frequencies, this is actually an advantage.

Also from tables of electromotive force, copper, then silver, and then gold is listed as being a more potent source of electrons. Sorry, gold is simply too expensive for me to really experiment with, but silver wire for video/digital is quite nice and very effective. For the video source components though I like about 100,000 uF = bypass cap. The combination of the small by[ass cap with the large electrolytics ( I parallel about ten 10,000uF), and silver wire seems to work fine even on Blue ray sources.

I use only the BGT on my gear now. The copper tape was interesting in assessing Bud Purvine's theories, however. With the appropriate bypass cap on the BGT you get significantly more even frequency response, although exactly like souping up a component power supply, you need to find a cap to suite your tastes and components.

 

RE: tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on June 5, 2013 at 00:59:04
Dry Ginger
 Inspired by UncleStu, last night I installed a coiled 8-foot long 8"-wide copper-foil streamer to each of my amplifier's negative speaker terminals that dropped the noise floor to such an extent that, on restarting the music (a symphony) I unexpectedly found myself startled and looking around the room for the unexplained sources of all the unfamiliar little sounds that were suddenly popping up out of nowhere! After a second or two I realized they were all the smallest orchestral sounds of symbols etc. that had emerged with great clarity from the background for the first time. My next impression was how a new quality of effortless lightness had replaced the pervasive sense of digital oppression that has long been a part, albeit diminishing, of my listening experience. Using my LFD LE4 amplifier and system, this was in another sonic league entirely from the unpleasant change in tone from attaching a few inches or a loop of single core copper wire from those terminals or the relatively small increase in quietness from 26" of looped, braided Cat 5 cable component wires.

Needless to say, 8" wide coils of copper-foil are aesthetically ugly so I cut their width in half and reckon that loses about 25% of their effectiveness. Installing the resulting spare halves on the negative terminals of the speakers did nothing useful. I then used Maas Metal Polish, Isopropyl alcohol and MG Chemicals 801B on the tongues installed into the terminals which made the tone become undesirably bright. Removing the insulation from the back made the foil lighter and more malleable but to my ear did not effect the sound. Be aware that this product bears no resemblance in terms of thickness to that flimsy Aluminum roll in your kitchen; this copper-foil has heft and rips do not accidentally occur although light finger-cuts may.

Some entrepreneur with good taste could sell 8'-long coils of 8"-wide copper-foil in sonically-functional and handsome containers that are wired-up ready to be connected to negative speaker terminals. Until then anybody interested in dramatically dropping the noise-floor in their system at some aesthetic cost can buy their own copper-foil roll direct from Amazon: Amerimax Home Products 850678 Copper Flashing for $55.99

While this is not my tweak, hopefully somebody may find value in some detail of my testing experience or the copper-foil source.

 

RE: tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on June 5, 2013 at 12:29:34
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 oopper foil can also be found at stained glass suppliers

 

The late, posted on June 5, 2013 at 14:20:16
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Bob Fulton, pointed out in the 70's, IIRC, that the typical 1 meter interconnects are pretty much the same length of your average car antenna (if you're an old man like me, and remember those days when antennas were attached to the front fender and not hidden in the windshield).

Thus any wire attached to your system can easily be construed as an antenna for one frequency or another.

 

Unclestu clarification, posted on June 5, 2013 at 17:54:37
JohnLL
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Joined: April 30, 2010
 With your battery mod plus cap do you only attach one terminal of the cap to the battery negative or both?

 

RE: clarification, posted on June 5, 2013 at 18:54:19
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 following up on Bud Purvine's work the cap needs to be charged up in order to supply a surplus of electrons ( since they are negatively charged). So cap has to have positive to battery positive and negative to battery ground, which leads to component.

AS a WARNING (!) be aware that the cap can pack a rather mean wallop if you short it, even is only using a 9 volt battery, which is what I use. Once caps are installed, it takes a hour or so to "break" in. I also find the use of bypass caps imperative for best sound

 

RE: clarification, posted on June 5, 2013 at 23:36:08
pegwill


 
Hi Unclestu

Do I remeber you saying in a previous post somewhere about the Battery Ground Tweak that it should not be used on electrostatic speakers?

Many thanks if you could confirm this

 

Follow up, thanx again for all the input., posted on June 6, 2013 at 12:25:16
vital ital
Audiophile

Posts: 534
Location: croatia
Joined: January 2, 2004
 Gave it a try, used regular stranded copper wire. Stripped it fully and used some old AQ banana connectors. I really like what I am hearing as I am using my standard test CD (one that I have listed to thousands of times). I am hearing more detail and a bit more natural sound. First impressions are better than some $100+ tweaks I have paid for.

Nice one, gonna try some more variants after a few weeks.

Thnx again for all the nice replies and support!

v.i.

Million miles from home.

 

RE: clarification, posted on June 6, 2013 at 13:57:46
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 NO I never said that, but I haven't tried it on electrostatic speakers, either. I suspect the BGT works more on the signal from the amp than the actual speaker itself, and I can not see how using it on stats could cause any harm.

I did state that the BGT has limited effect on balanced components, probably because the balanced configuration has its own B- voltage rail. I'll go a little further and say that in experience, solid state electronics need much bigger caps, uF wise.

 

RE: clarification, posted on June 6, 2013 at 18:30:06
JohnLL
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Joined: April 30, 2010
 following up on Bud Purvine's work the cap needs to be charged up in order to supply a surplus of electrons ( since they are negatively charged). So cap has to have positive to battery positive and negative to battery ground, which leads to component.

AS a WARNING (!) be aware that the cap can pack a rather mean wallop if you short it, even is only using a 9 volt battery, which is what I use. Once caps are installed, it takes a hour or so to "break" in. I also find the use of bypass caps imperative for best sound

Thanks so much for the help!

 

RE: What's the difference between this and a copper foil inductor from say, Goertz? nt, posted on June 7, 2013 at 13:19:07
dcuhl
Audiophile

Posts: 150
Location: Mid-Atlantic, USA
Joined: January 13, 2013
 nt

 

To sum up, posted on June 7, 2013 at 17:35:31
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 cost. Inductors like the Goertz will work and as a matter of fact I have hooked up large chokes, leads siamesed and they work just fine.

 

RE: tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on June 7, 2013 at 19:10:06
mcbuddah
Audiophile

Posts: 384
Location: Wisconsin
Joined: June 8, 2012
 This sounds intriguing. What did you do with the long ribbon of copper? I assume you kept it off the floor. Why 8'? How long are your speaker cables? Mine are only 4", and I wonder if that makes length a variable for others' systems. If it was coiled, how tight was your coil for best sound? I'm tempted to try what you did, and I don't have anyone telling me how o decorate my living room.
Everything is going to the dogs

 

I said it, posted on June 8, 2013 at 04:54:48
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 It caused 'what sounded like' a discharged panel. I thought I ruined my Logan's but after I removed the battery it charged back up.

 

RE: tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on June 8, 2013 at 14:31:26
Dry Ginger
 I ended up running the 8' copper-foil ribbons/ streamers next to my 8' speaker cables on the risers since coils didn't maintain the reduced noise-floor.

My best initial results come from using 8" rather than 4" width ribbons but that maybe because I stripped the insulation off the 4" for testing purposes and then was only partially successful in replacing it with blue masking tape which comes away in too many places. The result is that the music from 4" ribbons/ streamers sounds slightly metallic unlike that from the 8".

If you live near a significant town, you don't need to wait for Amazon to deliver/ search for stained-glass suppliers as the local large commercial hardware operation will likely stock this foil. Good luck!

INTERMEDIATE TESTING REPORT 6-9-13

Fortunately the metallic tone that accompanies the dropped noise floor of this tweak largely disappears at widths of 0.5" or less (Mapleshade adopted 0.375" with thin copper foil). The thin size also allows the insulated 3oz copper-foil ribbon running from each amplifier negative terminal alongside the cables to each speaker to finally fit in unobtrusively.

INTERMEDIATE TESTING REPORT 6-18-13

Stripping off the insulation, diligently removing the adhesive with paint-stripper, thoroughly polishing both sides of the 0.5" wide 8 foot thick copper foil ribbons with Maas Metal Polish and then cleaning them off with MG Chemicals 801B Super Contact Cleaner lead to increased reduction in noise floor and in enhanced musical detail being revealed.

 

RE: clarification, posted on June 8, 2013 at 17:25:04
Grbluen
Audiophile

Posts: 112
Location: Midwest
Joined: April 25, 2013
 I've done the search and have been unable to find the background threads for this tweak.
Would any of you be kind enough to post links to the threads for beginners?

Thanks,
Don
Grbluen

 

Start off by , posted on June 8, 2013 at 19:43:08
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Googling Bud Purvine. I believe he posted extensively on DIY audio


Stu

 

RE: clarification, posted on June 8, 2013 at 19:45:04
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009
 http://db.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/search.mpl?forum=tweaks&searchtext=ground+control

 

RE: Start off by , posted on June 8, 2013 at 19:55:16
Grbluen
Audiophile

Posts: 112
Location: Midwest
Joined: April 25, 2013
 Thanks Stu!
Grbluen

 

Sorry , posted on June 8, 2013 at 20:09:26
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 if I seemed curt, but Bud was instrumental in popularizing and developing this tweak. I believe it would behoove any one interested to read his initial reports and the development of his ideas. He lays the theoretical underpinnings and such, so I believe it is important, rather than to read about it second hand.

I have the greatest respect for the man and I believe he deserves much more credit than anyone else.

 

AHHHH...., posted on June 8, 2013 at 20:20:31
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 I may be totally wrong here. ...but I do not doubt what you heard or experienced

The electrostatic panels are normally hooked up to a transformer and the stator panels, front and rear, are hooked respectively to the positive and negative leads (transformer secondaries), but usually these high voltage outputs are independent of the incoming positive and negative signal (transformer primary). Since the incoming signal is hooked up to your amp, it doesn't make sense to have any voltage on the negative where the ground tweak is normally hooked up.....

I'll have to do a little digging into this phenomena.

 

Let me clarify a bit, posted on June 9, 2013 at 10:01:35
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I have a QSC 1804 amp which has a 2 voltage b plus rail. One is high and one low. Maybe the battery was


reacting badly with the amp. In statistical language the speaker and amp effect was confounded. In either case I still would not try the battery with an electrostatic speaker.

 

RE: tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on June 21, 2013 at 14:03:05
Dry Ginger
 EUREKA! Finally hit gold dust by starting over and using the $11 ultra-thin, 15' copper-foil roll of Corry's Slug & Snail Copper Tape Barrier to make two 0.25"wide ribbons 7.5 feet long running from each amplifier negative speaker terminal alongside each speaker cable to within a foot of each speaker. I cut two ribbons of such length and width at a time, slowly peeled back a piece back from their insulation in order to stick them against each other in order to give these fragile pieces of foil strength as one piece stuck against the other over the full length of 7'6". (If one snaps, just overstick it!) I then repeated the exercise to create the second double-sided ribbon. Taking one end of each completed double-sided ribbon I folded it over four times to create a sufficiently thick and strong tongue that would survive being gripped in an amplifier negative speaker terminal. I then cleaned then each with MG Chemicals 801B, turned off my amplifier, installed the tongue of each tongue in each negative speaker terminal, and respectfully laid out the vulnerable ribbons alongside the speaker cables being careful to avoid positive speaker terminals.

Restarted the amplifier without expectations from a $11 local hardware store item (available through Amazon for $15.82). The consistent result is a SUBSTANTIAL SOUND IMPROVEMENT without metallic tone/ adverse side-effect:

- Sense of much greater overall openness and lightness from the reduced noise-floor that feels like the removal of a digital ceiling

- Significant enhancement of subtle musical detail that has me re-listening with great interest to my entire collection anew, an act usually reserved for expensive new components.

Have spent six months and $140 investigating dangling 6"/ 26" Litz and solid core copper wires/ loops from amplifier negative speaker terminals to no useful musical effect whatsoever and then wide, thick, expensive copper-foil ribbons that to my ear brought metallic tone without music subtlety. It's thanks to following Mapleshade's THIN copper-foil concept that I finally hit pay dirt and can now unreservedly recommend this tweak to all. In my system and to my ears it is one of those few tweaks like tri-coloring that I would describe as being literally transformative - I can therefore well understand why Mapleshade charge $230 since they are presumably relating the price to its sonic value and on that basis they are seriously undercharging in my opinion!

$11 + 90 Minutes Work on this Tweak = Effect of a Major New Component

 

RE: tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on June 23, 2013 at 13:03:50
Dry Ginger
 Retaining each thin, vulnerable copper-foil ribbon safely, securely and out-of-sight to the back of each speaker cable with small black plastic ties gives this tweak longevity, removes any aesthetic objection, and does not diminish from its substantial sonic improvement.

 

RE: tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on June 27, 2013 at 13:20:11
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009
 Good day to you Dry Ginger. I have several questions for you. I bought from My local Home Depot the same Cory's Copper Tape Barrier (15' x 1" 3/16") ($7.42). I have tried using 26" loops of zip cord and the EVS Ground Enhancers with little effect. So I'm going to give your idea a try.
Question: Rather than remove the tape backing would the streamer still function if I were to fold the tape down the middle with the backing on the inside and tape the resulting open side with scotch tape? OR dose the copper need to be in contact with each other?
Question: I like your thinking of securing the tape to the speaker cable using tie wraps. Does that still work for you?


Regards,
(pixelphoto)
Marvin

 

RE: tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on June 27, 2013 at 21:55:18
Dry Ginger
 Marvin,

As confirmed by email, an insulated half-inch of this thin copper-foil leaves the music with the same metallic tone that plagued wider and thicker copper ribbons running out from each amplifier negative speaker terminal alongside each cable to just short of the speaker.

The sound and musical tone from single-insulated 0.25" wide or double-sided, non-insulated 0.25" wide, thin copper-foil ribbons are as close as to being identical as well as metallic-free to my ear. Practical longevity determines the choice of the latter since the insulation peels of a single copper-foil ribbon that is so thin that it will too easily break.

The black plastic ties retaining the ribbons safely and largely out of sight behind the speaker cables works well and does not degrade the sound.

Incidentally I also connected the ribbons to the amplifier speaker positive, rather than negative, terminals but that change made no difference to the quality of sound improvement (my speaker cables are made of uniform materials).

It's a resounding success of a tweak...finally. And so inexpensive at just over $7 at the local hardware store for a roll of thin copper-foil. Do post your results.

D.G.

 

RE: tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on June 28, 2013 at 09:39:18
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009
 D. G., thank you for the prompt replay. I'm going to get on this tomorrow hoping I don't make a sticky mess of the two pieces. I'll report back after I install and have a listen.

Best,
Marvin

 

RE: tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on June 29, 2013 at 13:51:31
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009
 Well I did it. I made a set of ground control ribbons. My speaker cables are 12' so I decided to make 11' ribbons.

I began by pulling out several feet of tape (Cory's Copper Tape Barrier (15' x 1" 3/16"). I then folded the back of the tape down the center making a crease in the backing. I then relaxed the fold and carefully pulled the backing from the tape while pressing the exposed sticky sides together. This is actually easier than basket weaving. I taped the end of the finished ribbon to the wall to let it hang and to allow me to pull my fingers down it's length to remove any bumps or wrinkles and to use a scissors to cut the ribbon into two pieces.

I wanted to be able to mount and remove the ribbons from the back of the amp with some ease as it becomes a pain in the back if I spend to much time twisting and turning in the limited space where my system is located. SO, I remembered I had some piggyback type banana plugs and was pleased to find I could insert the folded end of the ribbon in the rear cable entry and secure with the two set screws.(I'm going to find some thick copper sheeting and cut two spades and solder the ribbon to them so I don't have that extra mass and weight of the rather large bananas hanging from the amp.)

Presently I just have the ribbons running behind the equipment and off the floor for the most part. I want to hear what happens when I move them around. I would actually like to tape them to the back wall. I read someplace that if the speaker cables + and - are bundled that you have more leeway in placing them. We'll see.

As to the sound. This is wonderful tweak for me and my modest system. At first listen I was shocked. I didn't want to deceive myself so I listed to my listening test discs for around four hours and realized I was hearing sounds that wasn't there before. There was a substantial increase in clarity and detail. The location of instruments were more sharply defined. More contrast between the sounds of the individual instruments. Everything was a whole lot better.

BUT, some cd's seemed to be a little bright. Not so bright as to fatigue my ears; but still would rather not hear it. So, I followed Dry Ginger's (thank you) suggestion of switching the ribbons to the plus + connection of the amp. Well golly gee wizz. As I'm hurrying back to my listening chair I says to me self, dam that's quite. As I listen some more I'm thinking the sound sounds so clean, so inviting, so, so musical!

Give this tweak a try. Head over to you local Home Depot and get a roll or two of Cory's Copper Tape Barrier. You'll find it in the garden dept with the snail and slug killers.


Happy listening to all of you,
Marvin

 

Very nice report Marvin!!..(n.t.), posted on June 30, 2013 at 01:05:10
old guy 42
Audiophile

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Contributor
  Since: August 26, 2012
 n.t.

 

RE: Very nice report Marvin!!..(n.t.), posted on July 1, 2013 at 11:59:00
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009
 From one old guy to another, thank you.


Marvin

 

Slug foil Neg Terminal Tweak, posted on July 4, 2013 at 13:12:12
DaveT
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Posts: 1126
Location: Mid Atlantic (Wash, DC Area)
Joined: September 25, 2000
 I was going to try this tweak straight out, but the HDs in my area don't carry the slug tape. So, if I want to try the tweak I will have to order the tape, and I need to know how much I will need.

Therefore, I have a question that I had hoped to answer for myself. I am not sure whether you have folded the tape in half (length wise) and glued the tape on it self; or did you use (2) 7.5 foot tapes taped back to back?

Please clarify, or if possible post a photograph.

I am really interested in comparing your variation to litz wire loops. TIA!

DaveT

 

RE: Slug foil Neg Terminal Tweak, posted on July 4, 2013 at 16:48:19
Dry Ginger



Dave,

When you receive this 15' roll of very thin copper-foil that is slightly less than 1.25" wide, you will find that it has insulation already stuck to its back with adhesive most of which stays when the insulation is removed.

Of course first it's necessary to mark the white insulation backing where to cut along the parallel 15' length. There's two choices. I took took the option of marking and cutting two 0.25" widths down the 15' lengths which I then cut in two to produce the four 7'6" lengths required for both sides of two ribbons. Then I slowly peeled off the insulation from the ends of two and stuck them back-to-back using the adhesive already left and continued until a double-sided ribbon was completed before repeating the exercise. It was a fiddly job and I simply overstuck the last piece foil if a piece broke.

Now I understand that Marvin (Pixelphoto) used another method and simply cut one copper-foil width of 0.5" width which he slowly stripped of the insulating backing and carefully bent the width sideways in two and stuck both halves together to create the same 7.5' double-sided 0.25" wide copper-foil ribbon. I was excited by his concept until I tried it and quickly found myself stuck in foil-hell.

So, Dave, this tweak delivers substantial sound benefits and costs almost nothing but there's no down-and-dirty, quick-and-easy technique to producing the ribbons. Slowly removing the insulation backing from two 7'6" long 0.25" wide copper-foil strips and sticking them back-to-back is what I have found works. Marvin has another method. You will just have to see what works for you. The tweak preparation does take patience which is then RICHLY rewarded!

The picture above shows how the tongues on the end of the ribbons enter the negative amplifier speaker terminals on my system. You can try attaching both your ribbons to the positive speaker terminals to see if it sounds better but obviously make sure to never allow the connected ribbons on a live amplifier to touch the opposite terminals.

Good luck and do share your results.

Dry Ginger

 

Had some foil, had some time...so, posted on July 5, 2013 at 09:39:18
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 ...I tried it on my Logan panel amp. I used 3 foot lengths 'cause that's all I had. Holy soundspace and clarity Batman! At 1st it sounded bright but I quickly got used to it because of the increase in clarity. Listened for a while then went back to my baseline (which includes some litz wire ala BudP in 6 inch lengths) and everything sounded dull/muted. Tried on the mid bass amp leads but that didn't work as well. It dried up the bass.

I don't know if this is an extension of Bud's tweak or something new altogether but wow it does do something to the sound.

Only listened about 30 minutes...maybe I'll tire of it with time.

 

RE: Had some foil, had some time...so, posted on July 5, 2013 at 13:12:04
Dry Ginger
 Yes, these copper-foil ribbons do have a powerful impact on the sound, don't they? But only the thin, narrow ribbons deliver the increased clarity and detail from the reduced noise floor without that fatiguing brightness from the metallic tone in the music that you report and of which you will almost certainly tire very quickly. And to get the full sound benefit from the ribbons, it is necessary to run them from the amplifier alongside each speaker cable almost until the speaker itself.

 

Hat's off to Mapleshade's Ground Plane ribbon streamer tweak, posted on July 5, 2013 at 14:59:06
geoffkait
 Pretty cool, pretty neat.

 

RE:Thanks! Slug foil Neg Terminal Tweak, posted on July 5, 2013 at 15:29:34
DaveT
Audiophile

Posts: 1126
Location: Mid Atlantic (Wash, DC Area)
Joined: September 25, 2000
 Thanks you, Dry Ginger et al, for the prompt feedback regarding the implementation of this tweak.

I have some copper foil used for attachment to widows for burglar alarms that I purchased from Radio Shack some years ago. I don't know how thick this foil is, but I will give it a try. I know it has adhesive on it. I believe the tape is 0.5-inch wide.

So, I will give it a try, and I will post my impressions.




DaveT

 

RE: AHHHH...., posted on July 6, 2013 at 11:04:03
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 It was the amp that behaved badly with the battery. But it's a mute point now since the copper foil is the way to go IMO.

 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 6, 2013 at 15:40:03
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009
 Follow up to the copper tape ribbon tweak:
After I completed assembling my pair of ribbons for the amp I still had two pieces of copper tape remaining. Yesterday I attached two 42" ribbons to the speakers. More of the same great sound. This tweak is just amazing.


Marvin

 

That's very interesting! Anyone tried the copper foil streamers on interconnects? Nt, posted on July 6, 2013 at 16:02:47
geoffkait
 Nt

 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 6, 2013 at 16:16:42
Dry Ginger
 Marvin,

Please would you explain whether this additional foil-streamer is connected to the positive or negative terminal of the speaker and whether it also runs alongside the speaker cable and other streamer (coming from the amplifier) as well?

D.G.

 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 6, 2013 at 16:49:53
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009
 D. G. my apologies for the lack of specific details. Here we go.
I first attached the 42 inchers to the negative terminals of the speaker and listened to some test music. Sounded very good. I then attached the ribbons to the positive terminals. Sounded even better. The ribbons are not running along side the speaker cables nor are the ribbons at the amp. I wanted to first see if the ribbons worked there magic away from the speaker cables before I got down on the floor behind my system and torque my back. I'm more than happy with the results. But, I will in the next few days do as you suggest and run the ribbons along side the speaker cables and see if their is even more magic to be heard.

Best to you,
Marvin

 

RE: That's very interesting! Anyone tried the copper foil streamers on interconnects? Nt, posted on July 6, 2013 at 16:57:42
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009
 Geoff, which IC's would you suggest one start at, the source or amp? How would you suggest one make the attachment, scotch tape, chewing gum (not to moist)?

Marvin

 

RE: That's very interesting! Anyone tried the copper foil streamers on interconnects? Nt, posted on July 7, 2013 at 06:09:13
geoffkait
 I suggest running a streamer from one RCA jack on player or pre almost all the way to the amp, just lay the copper foil streamer gently on top of the ICs. You can use whatever works for you to attach the copper side not the adhesive side of the foil to the RCA jack. Just leave the paper backing on the foil. Takes all of 60 seconds total.

 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 7, 2013 at 06:58:53
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Very dangerous because if the plus and minus ribbons ever come together it will short the amp and possibly blow the amp unless there is 'short protection' in the amp.

 

RE: Had some foil, had some time...so, posted on July 7, 2013 at 10:16:38
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Listened a day or so and so far my reaction is all positive. Btw if you try it in some applications and end up not liking it try different lengths to tune it. For example I tried a foot long version on my interconnects from my dac...didn't like it. I tried a shorter version and it was just right. I don't have formula for what lengths to use just the recommendation to try different lengths to see what works for you.

Very strongly though: don't try it on both negative and positive terminals there is too much danger for shorting the amp.

 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 9, 2013 at 15:35:18
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009
 Another follow up:
Yesterday I removed the 11' ribbons from my NAD C326BEE integrated amp where they had been attached to the positive post ( because they sound better there). I also removed the 42" ribbons from the speaker's + post. I then powered up the system and played the Isotek System Enhancer disc to it's completion.
(geoffkait as you suggested) I then over the next hour and half attached the 42" ribbons carefully to the IC's at the amp, each IC one at a time and later tried the same at the tube buffer IC's and listened to my test music discs. I also did the same to the digital cable at the cdp. There was no audible change in sound detectable to my failing ears. To day I reattached the 11' ribbons to the amp's + post and the magic returned (Dry Ginger I located the ribbons closer to the speaker cables but can't say that I hear a difference). So at this moment I'm happily listening to Willie Nelson and the Red Headed Stranger.
Question: Being that these ribbons are so darn delicate would it be detrimental to the performance of the ribbons to enclose them in a protective covering such as shrink tubing (un shrunk of course or enclosed in wide scotch tape?


Best,
Marvin

 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 9, 2013 at 16:07:08
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009
 FLASH! As Dry Ginger had suggested locating the ribbons close to the speaker cables I just now moved them even closer, approx. 4". This made a huge and immediate positive change. So one continues to fine tune.

Best,
Marvin

 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 9, 2013 at 16:11:00
geoffkait
 Not sure I follow what you did completely, however on my system one ribbon foil was connected to one output jack on my player and the ribbon foil was laid along the length of the ICs, which are suspended, almost all the way to the amp, but left unconnected on the amp end.

Cheers

 

Innerestin', posted on July 9, 2013 at 16:29:23
geoffkait
 From the Mapleshade web site:

FIELD SHAPING GROUND PLANE RIBBONS

Reshaping the electromagnetic fields that inevitably surround your components and cables will make startling improvements in the top-to-bottom clarity of your sound. Just connect our two 8' Ground Plane Ribbons to your amplifier’s black (ground) speaker terminals and then lay them alongside your speaker cables, about 4" away, leaving the Ribbons’ far end unconnected.

Why such a powerfully beneficial effect? Every hifi system has a ground plane, shaped by the accident of where the ground wires in your cables, interconnects and power cords happen to lie. Fields form between that ground plane and any neighboring wire at a different voltage. The fields extend many feet. Any of your room’s non-conducting materials within the fields absorb energy from your music signal, thereby smearing and compressing it. That’s greatly reduced by reshaping and concentrating those fields with our carefully-optimized Ground Plane Ribbons (see Ground Plane Owner’s Manual on our website for more of the physics). Guaranteed to have way more effect than the 6" long Audio Prism Ground Control dongles.

 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 9, 2013 at 18:52:37
Dry Ginger
 Marvin, given the vulnerability of the ribbons, I encourage you to consider using plastic ties to hold them right against the back of each speaker cable on their way from the amplifier to each speaker. They perform just as well in close proximity and stay safe from damage when retained against the cables.

I was disappointed not to experience a sound improvement by running a separate ribbon from one of the i/c outputs of the CDP alongside the interconnect cable to just short of the amplifier.

Delighted you are pleased with the sound from full ribbon deployment near the speaker cables.

D.G.

 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 9, 2013 at 19:36:08
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009
 D.G., so my therapy for tomorrow will be to tie the ribbons to the cables. Shall I use black, white, red, yellow, green, blue, orange or purple ties. Oh don't over think it Marvin just stick with basic black.


Best to you,
Marvin


 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 10, 2013 at 04:24:18
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 You said
'I was disappointed not to experience a sound improvement by running a separate ribbon from one of the i/c outputs of the CDP alongside the interconnect cable to just short of the amplifier.'

Did you try shorter lengths?

In fact when I tried longer lengths it degraded the sound not just 'did not improve the sound'. Did you experience this also?

 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 10, 2013 at 11:11:18
Dry Ginger
 No, I didn't see any particular point in running the ribbon much shorter than the length of interconnect itself but did manage to completely cut out the sound to one speaker when I switched from one output to the other! In fact the purpose of my posting was not to share my failure with interconnect ribbon so much as how to illustrate how to connect them from the source CDP rather than the amplifier. Geoff reported success so am puzzled at no positive results. Of course jamming even the thin foil in with the interconnect plug is hardly ideal...

As UncleStu has recommended 8" or 12" long sections of 17 gauge 1.25" or 20 gauge 1.5" chrome plumbing tail pipes made of brass (containing copper) can be connected via their flanges to form a magnetic-free zone through which to pass a speaker and interconnect cable with less external interference. That tweak cost comes not only financially in the $180 parts but also in the aesthetic conversion of the audio system into one large assembly of chrome tubes. And I have no idea whether the sound benefit of his reported best-ever tweak justifies both such a large outlay and visual sacrifice...

 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 10, 2013 at 13:40:53
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 No, I didn't see any particular point in running the ribbon much shorter than the length of interconnect itself but did manage to completely cut out the sound to one speaker when I switched from one output to the other! In fact the purpose of my posting was not to share my failure with interconnect ribbon so much as how to illustrate how to connect them from the source CDP rather than the amplifier. Geoff reported success so am puzzled at no positive results. Of course jamming even the thin foil in with the interconnect plug is hardly ideal..


Why not use an alligator clip?

When you say you saw no reason to try shorter lengths of copper tape why is that? Its easy to try.

 

Are copper foil ribbons directional?, posted on July 10, 2013 at 14:30:43
geoffkait
 We know that wires, cables, fuses, etc. are directional. Has anyone tried reversing the direction of the copper foil ribbon streamers for the ground plane tweak? Just curious...

 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 10, 2013 at 16:22:48
Dry Ginger
 My interconnect plugs go into CDP inputs so I do not follow how an alligator clip would access the inside of a CDP input with a plug in it...maybe I simply lack imagination:-)!

I learned from success with ribbons accompanying the full length of speaker cables that that Mapleshade were correct in attributing the success of the tweak to the copper foil creating another field to disrupt the field generated by the speaker cable. Ipso facto whatever benefit might be derived from situating copper-foil near interconnects would again be maximized by going the full length of cable field disruption.

However I understand that amplifiers pulse electrical and magnetic fields 20,000 times each second through speaker cables to produce music. CDPs may generate magnetic fields through interconnect cables but on a much, much smaller scale so it's hardly surprising that we do not experience comparable benefits from copper-foil ribbons there.

 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 10, 2013 at 16:50:33
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Just alligator clip the foil onto the outside barrel of most ic's which is ground on my ic's. A maximum effect is achieved going the entire length does not mean you will get a bad effect at less than max. Not trying to argue just trying to suggest some alternatives.

 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 10, 2013 at 18:09:14
Dry Ginger
 It was the annual 'thank you customer' 25%-off sale at our local hardware store today so late this afternoon I ordered $185 worth of brass plumbing tail pieces for $137 with a MBG. In the next couple weeks I shall be able to report on the effectiveness of putting the speaker cables and interconnects inside these mainly copper tubes which is UncleStu's tweak of the year. It'll be interesting to see whether or not brass pipes with their copper content add a metallic tone to the music as well as greatly clarifying its content by largely preventing the development of magnetic fields.

My audio system will be going from understated to a modern-chrome, tubular-office look so the sound improvement will need to be significant to justify the permanent aesthetic sacrifice...

 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 10, 2013 at 18:41:32
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009
 Finished! (image)




 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 11, 2013 at 10:48:30
Dry Ginger
 Congratulations, Marvin!

 

RE: Help with proper tweaking "loop to neg terminal" tweak, posted on July 11, 2013 at 13:22:01
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009
 Thanks, was well worth the small effort.

Marvin

 

Couple questions, posted on July 11, 2013 at 18:23:04
geoffkait
 You have the copper foil connected to the ground of the + terminal. The ground of the + terminal is the same as the ground on the - terminal. Did you hear a difference between them? Question 2. It's difficult to tell from the photo but it kind of looks like the adhesive back of the copper foil is used to attach the copper foil to the connector that's grabbing the RCA plug on the + terminal. Is it fair to assume the copper foil you're using employs conductive adhesive? Otherwise, uh, you know...

 

RE: Couple questions, posted on July 11, 2013 at 18:38:54
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009
 Geoffkait, you are looking at a piggy back banana plug, the one closest to the snippers. It will except two speaker cables. Ignore the black rectangle on the side. I have the ribbon attached to the + terminal because it sounds better that way. So, the + cable is attached to one receptacle and the ribbon is attached to the other and held fast with two set screws, both are +. The foil is Cory's Copper Tape Barrier (15' x 1" 3/16" ) from HD. I folded over the foil and removed the backing to expose the adhesive and pressed both adhesive side together resulting in two smooth sides. Works wonderfully.

Best,
Marvin

 

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