Coming soon! - how to make a reef knot device. With photos. Nt

Tie a small Reef Knot (Square Knot) in a 10" length of thin copper or silver wire. Solder medium or large size alligator clips to both ends of wire. Attach the Reef Knot Device to any cable, including audio cables, computer cables, TV cables, electrical cords for kitchen appliances and floor lamps, etc. The Reef Knot Device can also be used to connect any two adjacent cables such as interconnects, power cords, electrical cords, etc. You will find that using the Reef Knot Device for cables outside the listening room, say in the kitchen, will also improve the sound in the listening room.

How to make a reef knot device. With photo 2, posted on February 4, 2013 at 07:47:04
geoffkait	...

RE: How to make a reef knot device. With photo 2, posted on February 4, 2013 at 11:56:28
theob Audiophile Posts: 3180 Location: ann arbor michigan Joined: November 4, 2000	Is it supposed to do something sonically? Dont understand the why.

Charge of the tweak brigade., posted on February 4, 2013 at 12:12:23
driver8 Audiophile Posts: 842 Location: Montreal Joined: December 5, 2002	Ours is not to reason why. Ours is but to at least try ;]

RE: Aligator clips on power cords-not recommended., posted on February 4, 2013 at 12:49:44
cdb	It could turn this little tweak into a fusible link, or a small space heater. At least have the sense to file the teeth off first.

Plan B, posted on February 4, 2013 at 13:01:42

geoffkait

I use alligator clips with very shallow rounded teeth that will not pierce the insultation or tear fabric. Helpful hint - do not chew on cables. It's actually kind of a non-starter for thicker cables anyway since they're too thick for even the large size alligator clips. Another method not employing alligator clips is tie two adjacent cables together in a Reef Knot. OR tie a Reef Knot in a single cable. For thick cables like audio power cords see Plan C.

Plan C, posted on February 4, 2013 at 13:06:44
geoffkait	To use the Reef Knot Device on a single power cord, tie 2 plastic cable ties around the Power Cord about an inch apart then attach the alligator clips to the cable ties. For two adjacent power cords tie one cable tie around each cord then attach the alligator clips to the cable ties. Voila!

The why, posted on February 4, 2013 at 18:56:39

unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010

can be explained by looking up the "rule of the right hand" . It is a basic rule in physics, but normally is covered only in a paragraph or two by most physics texts. As such, most of us study it and promptly forget about it after the chapter test is over. It's covered by Wikipedia, BTW.

The rule is simple: current flowing along, say, your right thumb generates a magnetic field which curls like the fingers of your right hand

The twist of the interlaced cables is sort of self inducing when wound in the proper orientation. You see this in the High Wire Power wraps.
Wound in the reverse (left hand thread) direction it actually slows down the signal. It's easy to remember the prefered winding direction, simply look at your standard screw threads: that's the pattern you should wind any two wires. The natural tendency, if you're righthanded like myself, is to wind the other way.

You can split twin lead cables and wind and hear the difference. Quite a difference even with something like Monster Cable. The same applies to woven cables like Kimber. Use the leads curving in the right hand thread direction for the positive and the cable sounds "faster" with more zip.

YMMV

Stu

RE: How to make a reef knot device. With photo 1, posted on February 4, 2013 at 19:25:16
gbehappy2 Audiophile Posts: 152 Joined: January 27, 2010	I had posted when discussing the charcoal tweak, that I had tied speaker cables into reef knots and achieved a very noticeable, but not necessarily positive result. The presentation became much stronger in certain areas, but very unbalanced. I left the knots in place for a few days, but ultimately removed them due to the unbalanced presentation. Did not try it on power cords or IC's. kendo

RE: Coming soon! - how to make a reef knot device. With photos. Nt, posted on February 4, 2013 at 19:58:28
pictureguy Audiophile Posts: 22597 Location: SoCal Joined: October 19, 2008	i've got my marlinspike and my copy of Chapman's 'Piloting, Seamanship and Small Boat Handling' ready to go. Too much is never enough

That's weird, posted on February 5, 2013 at 04:44:56
geoffkait	The sound I get with the reef knot is more natural, has more inner detail and air, and better dynamics. Maybe you tied a granny knot instead, hard to say.

Nice theory, posted on February 5, 2013 at 04:50:54
geoffkait	But how would the right hand rule explain why tying a Reef Knot in a computer power cord or TV cord in another room improves the sound? Or why tying a Reef Knot in an unused cable lying on the floor improves the sound? Even better, how does the right hand rule explain why tying a Reef Knot in a Venetian Blinds cord improves the sound? If you see what I mean.

Even better... why tying a Reef Knot in a Venetian Blinds cord improves the sound?, posted on February 5, 2013 at 08:20:28

Chip647
Audiophile

Posts: 2793
Location: The South
Joined: December 24, 2012

Entropy:
Where the temperature of a closed system is divided into an incremental reversible transfer of heat energy into that system. Entropy is, remarkably, a function of state. That is to say, for example, that a substance at a particular temperature and pressure (and thus a particular state) is at not only a particular volume but also at a particular entropy. Entropy is an extensive property, but it is often given as an intensive property of specific entropy as entropy per unit mass or entropy per mole. Unlike many other functions of state, entropy cannot be directly observed but must be calculated. Entropy can be calculated for a substance as the standard molar entropy from absolute zero (also known as absolute entropy) or as a difference in entropy from some other reference state which is defined as zero entropy. Entropy has the dimension of energy divided by temperature, which has a unit of joules per kelvin in the International System of Units. While these are the same units as heat capacity, the two concepts are distinct.

RE: That's weird, posted on February 5, 2013 at 09:37:46
IEaudiodude Audiophile Posts: 2814 Location: So Cal Joined: February 11, 2010	Maybe it was a hangman's knot (aka noose) that just killed the soundstage....... I know, cheap joke.

I don't know about that., posted on February 5, 2013 at 10:07:38
axolotl Audiophile Posts: 3955 Location: So. California Joined: September 10, 2002	I swear I heard a faint "ba-dum-bum" in the background. %^D axolotl

But it's AC, posted on February 5, 2013 at 17:51:07
Tweekeng Audiophile Posts: 2093 Joined: September 9, 2005	So the current and magnetic field are constantly changing directions in your line cords, IC's and speaker wires.

RE: That's weird, posted on February 5, 2013 at 21:41:19
gbehappy2 Audiophile Posts: 152 Joined: January 27, 2010	It was most definitely NOT a granny knot!!! The knot was properly tied, but as I noted, it was tied in the cord and not as your photo describes with an outside wire attached by alligator clips. The increase in bass response was especially strong, to the point of being overbearing. kendo

Hey, look on the bright side, posted on February 6, 2013 at 04:16:07
geoffkait	Folks spend thousands to get that kind of bass.

Entropy, posted on February 6, 2013 at 05:20:30

geoffkait

Feng Shui seems to focus on the concept that entropy should be minimized. That the room should be well organized with little randomness and clutter. There seems to be considerable overlap among Feng Shui, David Bohm, Rupert Sheldrake and perhaps the Reef Knot. We can decrease entropy in the listening room by moving things to another room, increasing entropy in that room, or throwing (unnecessary) things out entirely, and by instituting a program of organization! Thus, decreasing entropy in the house.

Does labeling random things in a room with spatiial and temporal coordinates decrease entropy? Labels like 'x26'x' and 'x = PRESENT TIME

Is what we want really crave stability, organization and the absence of randomness? Hahahaah ha

Pulleeeeese, posted on February 6, 2013 at 14:07:31
unclestu Dealer Posts: 5851 Joined: April 13, 2010	equating Feng Shui with Bohm is a travesty for both.

Huh?!, posted on February 6, 2013 at 15:34:22
geoffkait	How could it be a travesty for both? I imagine each would be flattered by the comparison. Oh, well, I'm sure you have your reasons. :-)

RE: Hey, look on the bright side, posted on February 7, 2013 at 11:41:06

gbehappy2
Audiophile

Posts: 152
Joined: January 27, 2010

After posting that I had not tried the tweak as Geoff has prescribed, I thought why not? One of my pet peeves is naysayers posting negative comments without trying the tweak described, and here I was, rowing that boat.

Knotting the speaker cables did not work well, but applying the tweak as Geoff posted worked great. It seemed as if a couple of layers of grunge were removed and all the positive results of greater transparency followed. In my system, the greatest benefits were in the upper frequencies. Guitar and piano attacks improved markedly, as did corresponding decays. Presentation was more refined, open and immediate. Great tweak!! Thanks Geoff.
kendo

RE: Hey, look on the bright side, posted on February 7, 2013 at 12:58:21
theob Audiophile Posts: 3180 Location: ann arbor michigan Joined: November 4, 2000	Where did you put it?

RE: How to make a reef knot device. With photo 1, posted on February 7, 2013 at 13:12:10
pixelphoto Audiophile Posts: 655 Location: So. Cal. Joined: December 15, 2009	Is the 10 " wire length arbitrary or just a convenient length? I just built one and connected it to the AVR pwr cable. I do perceive more clarity of sound while watching the news. Marvin

RE: How to make a reef knot device. With photo 1, posted on February 7, 2013 at 13:23:39
geoffkait	10" is just a convenient length, long enough to tie the reef knot with ease and have plenty of room to strip the ends and solder onto the alligator clips. If you need to connect two cables that are not right next to each other the Reef Knot Device can be made out of a longer piece of wire.

RE: Coming soon! - how to make a reef knot device. With photos. Nt, posted on February 7, 2013 at 17:55:41

pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009

This is a fantastic tweak! A piece of wire and two gator clips; say what! I attached said tweak to the pwr cable of my DAC several hours ago and just finished listening to a number of familiar CD's. I heard a cleaner, expanded and dynamically bigger sound, extended decay and more presence. So now I have several question.
1. Is there a best position to mount the tweak on a cable? At the center, either end or anywhere?
2. Can this tweak be overdone; i.e. one per every cable?
Gonna make a few more this eve.

Best,
Marvin

RE: Coming soon! - how to make a reef knot device. With photos. Nt, posted on February 7, 2013 at 18:35:36
geoffkait	I don't think it matters where the Reef Knot is attached on a cable. If you use two Reef Knots per cable they will cancel each other. There is no advantage to three Reef Knots per cable since that is effectively the same as one Reef Knot. There are enough electrical cords for computers, appliances, lamps, TV, refrigerator, microwave, air purifier, etc. to fill up a rainy afternoon.

Wrap tweaks, posted on February 7, 2013 at 21:20:29

unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010

Here are a few photos of various gweaks involving wrapping.

Top photo is of the Shun Mook cable jacket. You can see the conductive mylar tab which serves as a wrap. It is unforunately reversed in direction to the rule of the right hand. Shun Mook dio provide a ground wire that you attached to the myalr strip. You can reverse the wraps to get the proper orientation and the sound is "faster" being in the proper orientation and not as warm.

The second photo is the High wire power wraps. It is highly magnetic , very stiff so I suspect it has some mumetal or at least ferrous wire in it, probably coupled with a copper lead. It has no clips, although it sounds better if a ground wire is attached to the receiving end. Notice the direction of the twist.

Second is a simple experiment I conducted with some spare jumper wires I had lying around. Simply wrapping the wire around a cord increases top end energy and detail. Normally I recommend grounding the wire on the receiving end of the cable to absorb any inductive current picked up.

Reef knots are an extension of these tweaks, and you need not go throught as much trouble. A siumple length of wire wrapped will suffice, the alligator clips are nly necessary to keep the wire from unravelling, although I do recommend grounding at the receiving end.

Of course, YMMV

Oh yeah, the tweak is mentioned on the PWB website, which is where Geoff probably picked it up.

Stu

It should be pretty, posted on February 8, 2013 at 04:42:01

geoffkait

...obvious to even the most casual observer that both the Highwire and Shun Mook cable wraps address electromagnetic reflections in the cable and both Highwire and Shun Mook say that's how they operate. Whereas, the Reef Knot (obviously) does not address these reflections, but operates some other, more mysterious way.

High Wire and Shun Mook cable wraps must be used on active (i.e., connected, cables in the system to have an effect, whereas the Reef Knot - since it doesn't affect the signal in the cables or anywhere in the system - can be used on *inactive* - unconnected - audio cables or non-audio electrical cords. Hel-loo!! In fact, the Reef Knot is unrelated to Highwire or Shun Mook cable wraps' operation.

The fact that the Reef Knot appears on the PWB web site should have been your first clue. You might have dozed off and missed this part of the discussion there:

"As I have mentioned before, Peter has given remarkable demonstrations using Reef knots on completely unrelated components such as the AC power cable of a vacuum cleaner, stored in a cupboard or the AC power cables of PASSIVE Quad Electrostatic speakers, just standing in a passage way, outside the listening room."

Voodoo, posted on February 8, 2013 at 12:12:47

unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010

again.....First you give no credit to PWB, then you launch off equating Feng Shui with David Bohm.

The fact that the twist obviously obeys the basic physics rule of the right hand should be the first clue to anyone claiming to be a physicist and a rocket scientist. It should be obvious that the Shun Mook reverses the twist and adds its own peculiar distortion ( same as using a Granny knot).

The fact is these tweaks are variations on a theme.

Trees got in the way of your forest?

Laws were meant to be broken, posted on February 8, 2013 at 15:26:34

geoffkait

Stu, I am pretty sure that memory loss thing you have going is kicking in again. May Belt posted on the subject of Reef Knots here just last month. My suggestion - add more fish to your diet. By the way, how many laws of physics do you believe the Reef Knot disobeys, you know, what with the non-audio related applications and the passive cord applications?

May Belt wrote,

Rick m,

It is that Granny knots don't work. It HAS to be a Reef Knot !! And, as Geoff points out, you can make a Reef Knot in passive (unused) cables, anywhere in the listening room, and have a very effective improvement in the sound.

The technique of tying Reef Knots in cables was first demonstrated in the UK (and written about in Hi Fi Answers audio magazine) some 20 years ago.

Regards,
May Belt.
Manufacturer

RE: Voodoo, posted on February 8, 2013 at 16:00:07

Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002

IME, I'm a bonafide fan of Highwire Audio Power Wrap and All Clear devices based on direct experience and would protest against any accusation of the design concept as cable voodoo. On the other hand, I'm concerned to say the entire notion of some sort of nonlocal quantum physics being involved in an audiophile tweak of which folk's can tap into as "the source" in some manner is disturbing.

I went through an earnest study of metaphysics during a younger stage in life, and as a consequence learned that one can come to believe in things that can only make sense in the context of what one hopes to believe. Mysteries of the audible phenomena of wires and cables are a different animal, but some naysayers have accused such things as being a similar delusion. However, the naysayers are the ones who are missing something, since they don't allow honest evaluations based on direct experiences. Yet, with such a vital interest in audiophile phenomena, and with an open mind, I must still say that I can't think of a more snake oil type notion to take seriously than to fiddle around with wires tied in particular knots placed in an adjacent room to the listening room.

Forgive me if I missed something that I might actually be able to wrap my audiophile head around.

just my 2 cents

I hope you're NOT , posted on February 8, 2013 at 21:02:37

unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010

accusing me of believing in a voodoo explanation for the tweak! As the photos show, I actually own some Power wrap myself, and can duplicate its effect. I actually modify the High wire approach and use thun mumetal strips wrapped around a cord covered with copper tape to unify the electrical and magnetic induction. I then ground the receiving end at the component it is connected to. This works extremely well although it makes for a bit more hum bug as you have another cable end floating around.

This EMI induction even works for RF as I have used similar approaches using unconnected wire to shield sensitive components, phono sections in particular ( I live in an extremely high RF area). The unconnected wire acts as an antenna and thus can receive RF, and thus "wick" away unwanted RF. Of course such an explanation is disputed by Geoff who claims I have RF on the mind.....LOL!

In the case of Geoff, he forgets that one of the principle tenets of Feng Shui is to orient the sleeping body North-South. Why? To align the body with the Earth's magnetic field as the Chinese were the first to discover the compass. This is a far cry from the mysticism he is claiming, although some of Feng Shui is superstition (front doors should not be in direct line with the rear door because good luck will take the easy way out). The Chinese philosophies David Boehm was referring to in his writings were more of the Shang period Oracle Bones NOT Feng Shui.

I believe that wires and such make a noticeable difference, too, but I also believe an understanding of the nature of the effects is at hand.

YMMV, as is obvious

Stu

LOL!, posted on February 8, 2013 at 21:38:52
unclestu Dealer Posts: 5851 Joined: April 13, 2010	Atleast we know where you stand. AS far as the reef knots are concerned, NO laws or rules of physics are broken that I can see. Maybe your feng shui knowledge can further elucidate your thoughts.

Nope., posted on February 8, 2013 at 22:56:20
Duster Manufacturer Posts: 17117 Location: Pacific Northwest Joined: August 25, 2002	I have no issue with your end of the discussion, Stu. There's nothing voodoo about the Power Wrap, nor your own experiments of the kind. It's the nonlocal quantum physics notion in this thread that makes me queasy. Cheers, Duster

Oh, Lord, posted on February 9, 2013 at 05:18:51

geoffkait

"The quantum non-local physics notion of this thread makes me queasy."

Well, it appears the Reef Knot may have broken another rule. Is anyone keeping count? What rule does it break when used on a Venetian Blind cord? One need not look too far for examples of quantum non-local physics in audio, let me direct you to Rainbow Foil, The Red X Pen, the Teleportation Tweak and the Clever Little Clock. Oh, and the Photos in the Freezer Tweak.

"People would be much better off if they believed in too much rather than too little." - PT Barnum

RE: Nope., posted on February 9, 2013 at 06:40:51

May Belt
Manufacturer

Posts: 681
Location: Leeds UK
Joined: March 16, 2005

Duster replied :-

>>> "Mysteries of the audible phenomena of wires and cables are a different animal, but some naysayers have accused such things as being a similar delusion. However, the naysayers are the ones who are missing something, since they don't allow honest evaluations based on direct experiences. Yet, with such a vital interest in audiophile phenomena, and with an open mind, I must still say that I can't think of a more snake oil type notion to take seriously than to fiddle around with wires tied in particular knots placed in an adjacent room to the listening room." <<<

Let me reply to the different points raised in your reply.

>>> "However, the naysayers are the ones who are missing something, since they don't allow honest evaluations based on direct experiences." <<<

That is problem No 1, i.e when some people have themselves NOT had direct experience of something and therefore do not allow (or dismiss) other people's honest evaluations of THEIR experiences.

>>> "Yet, with such a vital interest in audiophile phenomena, and with an open mind, I must still say that I can't think of a more snake oil type notion to take seriously than to fiddle around with wires tied in particular knots placed in an adjacent room to the listening room." <<<

But it ACTUALLY happened (and can happen in the present tense), Duster.

For example. During the mid 1980s, Hi Fi retailers who stocked Quad Electrostatic speakers, when those speakers were not required for demonstration purposes they were usually kept in the corridor, outside the demonstration room. On numerous occasions, in different retailers and at different times, it was demonstrated that one could gain an improvement in the sound taking place in the actual listening room if a Reef knot was tied in the AC power cords (just dangling passively) of the Quad Electrostatic speakers stored outside.

Ditto tying a Reef knot in the AC power cord of a vacuum cleaner stored (passively) in a cupboard along the same corridor !!!!!

Problem No 2 occurs when an identical Reef Knot can be made in the pull cord of a curtain or venetian blind, in the listening room, and a similar improvement in the sound can be gained.

When such a thing happens, an explanation has to be found (or merely suggested) for what happens and unclestu's EMI or RF explanation will just NOT fit everything which can affect the 'sound' - much as he wishes it would. That is why I challenge him so many times on his explanations. I DO NOT challenge him on his observations - I fully appreciate that he hears the changes in the sound that he claims to hear - I do not challenge his experiences - we have heard similar changes but our own experiences have forced us to look in different directions to explain the same experiences, when EMI and RF explanations just do not fit what happens.

Unclestu says :-

>>> "The fact that the twist obviously obeys the basic physics rule of the right hand should be the first clue to anyone claiming to be a physicist and a rocket scientist. It should be obvious that the Shun Mook reverses the twist and adds its own peculiar distortion ( same as using a Granny knot).

The fact is these tweaks are variations on a theme." <<<

Certain 'twists' MAY follow the rule of the right hand and YES, these particular tweaks may be variations on a theme but the theme is that they are ALL affecting the environment in which we (human beings) are trying to listen to the complexities of music and not necessarily 'affecting' how EMI or RF influences the signal going through the audio equipment or influencies the acoustic air pressure waves and vibrations.

Sometimes, yes, EMI and RF can influence the actual audio signal - my knowledge of audio is sufficient to know that much - but not EVERY single time the 'sound' change is experienced. And, my knowledge is also sufficient to know when they can't !!!! And, it is those other times which have to be explained.

Part of one of unclestu's replies :-

>>> "The unconnected wire acts as an antenna and thus can receive RF, and thus "wick" away unwanted RF." <<<

This is a constant theme of Unclestu's !!! Extending also to cover such as the effect on the sound which certain crystals in the listening room have !! "Wicked" away from what ? The audio signal ?

Again to quote unclestu :-

>>> "It should be obvious that the Shun Mook reverses the twist and adds its own peculiar distortion" <<<

It's own peculiar distortion on what ???

Part of your reply, Duster.

>>> "Yet, with such a vital interest in audiophile phenomena, and with an open mind," <<<

I am encouraged to read that.

Regards,
May Belt,
Manufacturer.

RE: LOL!, posted on February 9, 2013 at 07:43:30

geoffkait

You wrote,

"AS far as the reef knots are concerned, NO laws or rules of physics are broken that I can see."

You better look a little more closely.

You wrote,

"Maybe your feng shui knowledge can further elucidate your thoughts."

I have a queasy feeling you're going to tell me you're a Feng Shui Master. Questions - is Feng Shui knowledge inherited? Are Americans inherently poor at grasping Feng Shui? I have a queasy feeling you think Chi is RFI.

why doesn't, posted on February 9, 2013 at 12:27:20
unclestu Dealer Posts: 5851 Joined: April 13, 2010	a granny knot work?

Sorry, posted on February 9, 2013 at 12:29:20

unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010

tying knots in my Venetian blind cords do NOT work except when it pulls the blinds away from the window. Tying knots in various pieces of rope in my sound room doesn't work either.

Neither does the photo in the freezer tweak. As I pointed out in the past, lots of people in the NE right now are enduring several feet of snowfall. If they have photos in storage lockers or garages, and such, their stereo systems ought to be sounding magnificent, shouldn't they? People dwelling in Alaska dn the Canadian North should also have superb sounding systems too....

Seems like your favorite Backfire effect is working here.

RE: LOL!, posted on February 9, 2013 at 12:31:04

unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010

Your flights of fancy are rather unbelievable, about on par with your reading comprehension.

Incidentally, I am an American, but right now I am pretty much ashamed at your example of stereotypical bigotry. With a country like China with over 5000 years of history, you equate everything Chinese with feng shui? If you had even read an inkling about David Bohm you would know that his interest was NOT feng shui. In addition, you simply do not understand, nor does it seem that you have made even the slightest attempt to understand such concepts of Chi or Ki in Japanese.

Also read my reply very carefully:, posted on February 9, 2013 at 13:05:24

unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010

I specifically stated that I live in a very high RF area. The RF used to be so high that many phono sections would audibly pick up radio and TV stations. Adding standard "fixes" like ferrite beads works but sonically impairs the signal. Several tweaks work extremely well.

One was to place a simple interconnect wound carefully on top of the phono section. It did not have to be connected to anything and it would significantly reduce the RFI received. Actually, grounding the cable increased its efficiency. Diameter of the winding was quite crucial.

Second was to make an "umbrella" frame: a radially mounted ensemble of wires of various lengths ( best if 1/4 wavelength of the offending broadcast). Placed over the phono section it absorbed large amounts of the RFI and made listening to the phono section pleasant.

I have pointed out that in the modern word, RF is increasingly an issue. Cell phones, Wi Fi, Ipads, Ipods, etc. all generate RFI. First generation CD players (Philips/Magnavox) with their plastic chassis' wrecked havoc on TV reception because their RF emmision was so high, so high that the FCC MANDATED metal chassis and placed restrictions on RF emmisions ( one reason why so many early CD players only had optical digital outputs).

That being said, I do not attribute everything which ails audio to RF. Geoff seems to think I do, but then he can scarcely understand the written word (backfire effect). Crystals, I attribute to the piezo effect. It can include RF but EMI covers a far broader range and if you actually tried my application notes (don't criticize others if you don't practice what you preach), you would note that I place my crystals in areas of intense EMI concentrations: transformers, motor assemblies, voice coil assemblies, and the like. Crystals are hardly working on RFI in those applications.

Also be aware that EMI fields extend over very broad distances: they may weaken in intensity, however. Experimental evidence by Alain Aspect proves this correlation, but apparently neither you nor Geoff have explored the experimental correlation with events in the real world.

RE: LOL!, posted on February 9, 2013 at 14:00:27
geoffkait	You wrote, "Your flights of fancy are rather unbelievable, about on par with your reading comprehension." How so? You're the one that sees RFI behind every bush.

RE: why doesn't, posted on February 9, 2013 at 14:02:04
Tony Lauck Audiophile Posts: 13629 Location: Vermont Joined: November 12, 2007	The question answers itself, once one understands the two knots and takes into account that a second reef knot cancels the first. Tony Lauck "Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

Sorry to hear that, posted on February 9, 2013 at 14:25:48

geoffkait

If you can't hear the Photos in the Freezer Tweak either you can't hear as well as you think you can or there's something dreadfully wrong with your system OR you don't know how to do the Photos in the Freezer Tweak properly. There's always All of the Above.

This morning I attached a Reef Knot Device to most of the electrical cords and other cords in the living room and kitchen, which contain NO audio equipment. I attached a reef knot to the microwave oven cord, the refrigerator cord, some floor lamp cords and various cables for the TV and digital box. I just this minute listened to a CD that I had listened to the other day. The dynamic range of the CD is about double, and the sound much more intricate, after putting Reef Knots in the living room and kitchen. Sorry to hear you struck out with the photos/freezer thing and the reef knot thing. C'est la vie. :-)

To answer your question regarding the photos in the freezer tweak, and random photos in random locations, it would be extremely beneficial to know what the photos in the freezer tweak actually entails before making any assumptions about garages, lockers, snowstorms, etc., no?

My mojo is working, your Backfire Effect is in full bloom.

Prime example, posted on February 9, 2013 at 15:32:50
unclestu Dealer Posts: 5851 Joined: April 13, 2010	of backfire effect ! LOL !

How odd, posted on February 9, 2013 at 16:46:11

geoffkait

Stu, you wrote,

"Incidentally, I am an American, but right now I am pretty much ashamed at your example of stereotypical bigotry. With a country like China with over 5000 years of history, you equate everything Chinese with feng shui?

I never suggested any such thing. Maybe you're just over-reacting, who the hell knows. Not sure we're on the same page. :-)

"If you had even read an inkling about David Bohm you would know that his interest was NOT feng shui."

Never said it was. As ocassionally happens in these discussions you're just having trouble following a particular line of logic. Moving right along...

"In addition, you simply do not understand, nor does it seem that you have made even the slightest attempt to understand such concepts of Chi or Ki in Japanese."

I am starting to get the distinct impression you really do think that feng shui is something difficult and mysterious from the East that cannot be penetrated by Westerners. So I was right! Lol

klaatu barada nikto, posted on February 9, 2013 at 17:08:54

Duster
Manufacturer

Posts: 17117
Location: Pacific Northwest
Joined: August 25, 2002

"I just this minute listened to a CD that I had listened to the other day. The dynamic range of the CD is about double, and the sound much more intricate, after putting Reef Knots in the living room and kitchen."

I'm now feeling even more queasy.

That is a jaw-dropping extraordinary claim which in no manner can be validated as a universal experience, even by extraordinary anecdotal evidence shared by credible reporters.

Eccentric audiophiles with esoteric ideas is one thing (I am amongst them), but it's quite another level to advocate extra-terrestrial reports with such a straight face. Face to face in the 3D world might be a daunting task.

Cheers, Duster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIaxSxEqKtA

Novus Ordo Seclorum, posted on February 9, 2013 at 17:58:03
geoffkait	Hell, I was being conservative. The sound is more coherent, more open, more realistic, with better rhythm, better pitch, faster sounding and has more information and impact in the bass and upper bass. The midrange and treble are rich but immaculate.

Seems like you're mocking audiophile listening cues (nt), posted on February 9, 2013 at 18:30:41
Duster Manufacturer Posts: 17117 Location: Pacific Northwest Joined: August 25, 2002	nt

Well, I can certainly understand why you would think so. Nt, posted on February 9, 2013 at 18:47:46
geoffkait	Nt

Someone...anyone, posted on February 10, 2013 at 06:45:39
geoffkait	Give Stu back his bullets. He's fresh out of ammo.

Hearing vs. Perception, posted on February 10, 2013 at 07:54:32
Tony Lauck Audiophile Posts: 13629 Location: Vermont Joined: November 12, 2007	"If you can't hear the Photos in the Freezer Tweak either you can't hear as well as you think..." Not to be too picky about words, but I don't believe this tweak is a matter of "hearing". If you were to substitute "perception" then I would be good to go. Tony Lauck "Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

RE: Hearing vs. Perception, posted on February 10, 2013 at 08:20:04
geoffkait	I dunno, kind of a silly semantics argument. The words Hearing and Perception are interchangeable in my book. Unless you're suggesting that "it's all in your mind," - in which case I certainly understand your hesitancy. Lol

RE: Sorry to hear that, posted on February 10, 2013 at 11:36:20
Tre' Industry Professional Posts: 17964 Location: So. Cal. Joined: February 9, 2002	"The dynamic range of the CD is about double" That would be easy to measure. Show me the measurements. Tre' Have Fun and Enjoy the Music "Still Working the Problem"

RE: Sorry to hear that, posted on February 10, 2013 at 12:10:55
geoffkait	I can hear 3 dB of dynamic range. Can't you?

RE: Sorry to hear that, posted on February 10, 2013 at 12:29:33

unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010

you can offer no explanation. In fact, prior you had mentioned that NASA should send photos up into space in a refrigerator. No explanation was forthcoming when it was pointed out that the average temperature in space outside the suns rays was a few dsegrees above absolute zero. IIRC you claimed the enclosure was important: but then you didn't specify the zipock bag or the non air tight refrigerator door.

I bguess we all have to wander and guess at the actual means necessary sionce you never define the necessary needs for the tweak. Sure gives you a means to bag out when trials are contradictory to your perceptions.

Keep on running and dodging... All the readers have already caught on to your modus operandi.

RE: Sorry to hear that, posted on February 10, 2013 at 13:23:28

geoffkait

"you can offer no explanation."

Do you mean no explanation of the Reef Knot? If so, that's true, I offer no explanation. Get over it.

"In fact, prior you had mentioned that NASA should send photos up into space in a refrigerator. No explanation was forthcoming when it was pointed out that the average temperature in space outside the suns rays was a few dsegrees above absolute zero."

What good would it do to explain the freezer in space? I have already explained it to you many times, and each time you don't get it. If you're trying to convince me that you are dense you're doing an excellent job. There comes a time to fish or cut bait. Five years is long enough. :-)

"IIRC you claimed the enclosure was important: but then you didn't specify the zipock bag or the non air tight refrigerator door."

In your particular case, you should never start a sentence with IIRC. :-) This is an excellent example of "can't see the forest for the trees." The reason why I suggested NASA take some photos out in space was that it would be an easy way to measure the speed of the effect. It's a thought experiment. Now do you get it?

"I bguess we all have to wander and guess at the actual means necessary sionce you never define the necessary needs for the tweak. Sure gives you a means to bag out when trials are contradictory to your perceptions."

The details of the photos in the freezer tweak have been provided many times over on Iso. Must be one of those IIRC things.

RE: Coming soon! - how to make a reef knot device. With photos. Nt, posted on February 10, 2013 at 18:46:23

gbehappy2
Audiophile

Posts: 152
Joined: January 27, 2010

Pixelphoto, I found that adding too many loops changed the sound. IME the sound became somewhat duller, but slightly better balanced.

After thinking about it for a while, I wondered if the reef knot application would benefit the ground enhancement tweak. I tried it on speaker placements and got a slight improvement in brightness. I th'ten ran a string of Amazonite beads through the top knot over the reef knot and down each leg of the ground enhancement tweak. HOLY MOTHER OF GOD!!! Improvement was like the reef knot and ground enhancement tweak on steroids. I won't bother to describe the improvements in sounds because the are so obvious and strong that there is no need. Only experience will suffice.
kendo

RE: Coming soon! - how to make a reef knot device. With photos. Nt, posted on February 10, 2013 at 20:02:33
pixelphoto Audiophile Posts: 655 Location: So. Cal. Joined: December 15, 2009	Hi gbehappy. I'm thinking along the same line you are. I've got seven reef knot units on seven audio cables and the improvement in the sound is shocking. I plan on experimenting with crystals as you did. I have both diy and store bought ground control tweaks but they are not that effective in my system. Right now I'm just enJOYing the great sound. More tomorrow. Best to ya, Marvin

RE: Coming soon! - how to make a reef knot device. With photos. Nt, posted on February 11, 2013 at 03:46:12

geoffkait

Just for grins try reef knots on non audio cords and cables in the listening room - but especially in other rooms of the house. Things like iPad or IPhone charger cables, TV cables, Verizon or cable service cord, cable box cords, refrigerator cord, electric cord for heater/AC, cords for kitchen appliances, alarm clock radio cord, extension cords and power strip cords, cords for fans or air purifiers, all lamp cords. I'd be curious to hear what you think.

It's even worse than that. Much worse., posted on February 11, 2013 at 05:14:24

geoffkait

Since the reef knot can be used effectively on unused audio cables, refrigerator power cord, a room purifier cord, a floor lamp electrical cord, alarm clock radio cord, Venetian Blind cords and TV antenna wires. even when the thing to which the cord ismattached is normally OFF. I think we're starting to form a picture that it's not the audio signal that's being affected. And it's not the audio system power that's being affected. In fact - and I do so hate to judge these things before all the facts are in - it's not current, voltage or power - DC or A/C - anywhere in the house that's being affected!

"Because that's what I choose to believe." - Dr. Elizabeth Shaw in the movie Prometheus when asked why she believes as yet undiscovered aliens gave us life (a claim completely unsupported by any evidence),

~ Cheers

RE: Hearing vs. Perception, posted on February 11, 2013 at 09:10:16

May Belt
Manufacturer

Posts: 681
Location: Leeds UK
Joined: March 16, 2005

>>> "Not to be too picky about words, but I don't believe this tweak is a matter of "hearing". If you were to substitute "perception" then I would be good to go." <<<

Can I introduce an all encompassing descriptive sentence instead ?:-

"The experience of resolving more of the musical information".

Because this is what most people are describing after trying various different and unusual 'tweaks'.

The word 'hearing' implies hearing the ACTUAL musical information changing whereas the word 'perception' (in some people) implies a 'feeling', an 'impression' that the music has changed.

I am of the opinion that with most people's experiences with the majority of the 'tweaks' they try, it IS the actual musical information which is being better resolved.

On Propeller Head Plaza section I posed the following question to awe-d-o-file:-

>>> "Would the people who describe hearing an improvement in their sound after fitting such as the ground loops describe the improvement as "resolving more of the musical information" ?" <<<

To which awe-d-o-file replied.

>>> "The last sentence you wrote in your post "covers" what many might say word for word or in other ways regarding the implementation of that particular tweak or other tweaks that make an improvement." <<<

That reply seems to confirm that the expression "resolving more of the musical information" might encompass most people's listening experiences after trying different 'tweaks'. As soon as the descriptive word 'perception' is used, people are wont to come in immediately with the retort "Oh, it's auto-suggestion at work, or the placebo effect, or bias, or imagination, or audio faithhealing, or effective marketing etc."

Regards,
May Belt,
Manufacturer.

RE: Hearing vs. Perception, posted on February 11, 2013 at 10:40:17

Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007

While I appreciate the terminology "resolving musical information" this is also a highly ambiguous phrase. My late wife was a musician and to her all she cared about was forming an impression in her mind of what the musicians were thinking while they were performing, plus of course the notes. She could memorize a classical piece from hearing a recording once or twice, but normally obtained this musical information from reading and memorizing Braille music. She was pretty useless at commenting on quality of stereo playback, so after a frustrating afternoon auditioning amplifiers I never asked her to do this again. Other people consider hearing various subtle details of the musical performance, such as two guitars doubling a part, to be "resolving musical information".

The problem with all of these definitions is that information (and indeed all knowledge of this mundane world) is relative. After hearing some piece of information, such as that doubled guitar part, on a good system then it may be obvious on a cheap boom box. This is one of the problems with some blind testing protocols, and helps account for "everything sounding the same" once the testing begins. Other aspects involve much more subtle operation of the mind, e.g. how perception may not reach the level of conscious perception, but is still present and can be observed by certain unconscious behavior or by PET brain scans.

It is also very easy for a system to "resolve" non-musical information and fool people into believing that there has been a positive change for the better. (The classic example is boosting the treble and revealing things going on in the recording, but at the expense of early listening fatigue. This effect is common on systems set up by people who don't listen to acoustic recordings and who don't have any idea of what acoustic instruments sound like in real concert venues.)

I'm not sure there can be good, consistent understanding of definitions of these terms, for these and other reasons.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

RE: Coming soon! - how to make a reef knot device. With photos. Nt, posted on February 12, 2013 at 11:40:23

pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009

Hi geoffkait. Beyond the seven reef knot gator clip units on the audio cables I did tie five reef knots on cables in the living room. I can't say if I hear, imagine, feel, etc. any difference in my environment. I'm usually very sensitive to changes of any type but but I'm missing this one. The clips units are staying. I'm still adjusting to the positive changes they've made. Especially the sweet treble that wasn't there before.

Marvin

RE: Coming soon! - how to make a reef knot device. With photos. Nt, posted on February 12, 2013 at 12:02:10

geoffkait

Not sure I follow, when you say you tied a reef knot on the cable, do you mean you tied the cable into a reef knot? Why didn't you use clips on the latest cables since we had a report here that tying the reef knot in a cable might not be nearly as good as clips?

Gbehappy2 wrote,

"Knotting the speaker cables did not work well, but applying the tweak as Geoff posted worked great."

RE: Coming soon! - how to make a reef knot device. With photos. Nt, posted on February 12, 2013 at 16:09:50
pixelphoto Audiophile Posts: 655 Location: So. Cal. Joined: December 15, 2009	Sorry, should have said I tied reef knot IN the cable. I'll be making more reef knots with clips soon. Marvin

RE: Coming soon! - how to make a reef knot device. With photos. Nt, posted on February 12, 2013 at 16:14:25
geoffkait	Marvin, that's what gbehappy did, too. Cheers

RE: Coming soon! - how to make a reef knot device. With photos. Nt, posted on February 12, 2013 at 16:53:18
pixelphoto Audiophile Posts: 655 Location: So. Cal. Joined: December 15, 2009	I'm old and sometimes slow but I always get there. Marvin

RE: How to make a reef knot device. With photo 1, posted on February 13, 2013 at 11:21:07
Nirmala Audiophile Posts: 168 Location: Arizona Joined: December 4, 2002	Here is another cord tweak: http://www.head-fi.org/t/621465/tweak-your-iems-and-headphone-cable-with-normal-solid-core-silver-audio-cable-can-improve-the-sq-from-your-iems-and-headphones-believe-or-not-please-try-it I have not tried it yet, but plan to order some bare silver wire and give it a go.

RE: How to make a reef knot device. With photo 1, posted on February 13, 2013 at 11:26:14

Nirmala
Audiophile

Posts: 168
Location: Arizona
Joined: December 4, 2002

How about the lazy approach:

http://www.amazon.com/Elenco-TL-6-Standard-Alligator-10-Piece/dp/B0002JJU28/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1360784252&sr=8-4&keywords=alligator+clips

Excellent, excellent.... Nt, posted on February 13, 2013 at 13:35:29
geoffkait	Nt

RE: Coming soon! - how to make a reef knot device. With photos. Nt, posted on February 13, 2013 at 19:50:34
pixelphoto Audiophile Posts: 655 Location: So. Cal. Joined: December 15, 2009	My final thoughts on this tweak. It works for me. I've been rewarded with a quantum leap in clarity and detail. I can't wish for more than that. Now I think I'll go play with some charcoal. Marvin

Follow-up on my experimentation, posted on February 14, 2013 at 04:33:36

theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000

Earlier I asked where should one put one of these things. No consensus emerged so I experimented. First off these reef knots do Make a difference...sometimes a very big difference IMO. I did not try on signal carrying cables just power cables. The 1st biggest change was on my Logan power supply cords. Strange to me because these cords carry very little current but the voltage is significantly stepped up in the monolith internal power supples. But here the sonics (above 125 hz) were tremendously clarified...clearer, purer just right for me. The other place was on my p24 power supply to my pc motherboard, let me explain that I have pi filters all over the p24 wires. So I bunched 2 large groups of wires, banded them with copper tape and connected a reef knot with alligators. Again tremendous improvement in across the board clarity. I need to get more alligators to continue this quest but so far so good. Any other experiments with 'where to put them' by other inmates? If so please share. Other places I tried it seem to dry up the music too much. So after initial up uphoria I eventually retreated.

I still don't understand the 'how it works' but really it doesn't matter ... It does affect the sound. Uncle Stu where do you get these strange, wonderful ideas?

RE: Follow-up on my experimentation, posted on February 14, 2013 at 05:01:09

geoffkait

You wrote,

"Uncle Stu where do you get these strange, wonderful ideas?"

Just for the record, i am the author of this Reef Knot Device thread. I think you'll find Unc Stu is not quite on board this particular tweak and is still a little bit confused about it. Thanks for the sentiment, anyway.

As I have already mentioned, you'll find the RKD works on ANY cable or cord equally well - floor lamp electrical cords, air purifier electrical cord, PC cords, including mouse cable, TV cables, cable box cords, refrigerator cord, etc. You can treat two adjacent cables with one RKD by attaching one 'gator clip to one cable and the other 'gator clip to the second cable.

Significant improvements to SQ can be obtained by using the Reef Knot Device in other rooms of the house. Make sure each Reef Knot is tied properly - I.e., not a Granny Knot. Do not use more than one Reef Knot per cable and not more than one RKD when connecting two cables.

Cheers

RE: Follow-up on my experimentation, posted on February 14, 2013 at 05:36:00
theob Audiophile Posts: 3180 Location: ann arbor michigan Joined: November 4, 2000	Sorry Geoff, kudos to you. But where do you get the ideas?

RE: Follow-up on my experimentation, posted on February 14, 2013 at 05:51:52
geoffkait	Theob, as I stated earlier the original idea for the Reef Knot in audio applications is the domain of PWB Electronics, I.e., Peter Belt. The Reef Knot is one of the free tweaks described on the PWB Electronics web site.

RE: Follow-up on my experimentation, posted on February 15, 2013 at 03:11:01

theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000

Thanks again. As additional follow-up I applied the rkd (reef knot device) to interconnects out of my dac , to ic's out of my crossover to my amps and it was finally balanced in a way I did not achieve before. Always had trouble with the bass being either overly tight or too loose. Now it is tight, weighty, clear and airy. The biggest thing though is the sound stage and the dynamics both ffff and pppp. Very very nice. All I can recommend is keep trying different locations for the rkd, your experimentation will pay off.

Excellent analysis. Nt, posted on February 15, 2013 at 05:40:46
geoffkait	Nt

RE: Coming soon! - how to make a reef knot device. With photos. Nt, posted on February 15, 2013 at 14:40:07

Nirmala
Audiophile

Posts: 168
Location: Arizona
Joined: December 4, 2002

Well I ordered ten prewired alligator leads from Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002JJU28/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1), tied them into reef knots and applied them to cords around my system, and around my nearby computer and TV. I used cable ties on power lines as suggested because the alligators I got have sharp little teeth. I also tied reef knots in several other cords, or between two adjacent cords when convenient.

Well it is pretty obvious that there is a noticeable increase in clarity and detail across the frequency range when listening to my Sennheiser headphones, along with a more natural tone.

Thanks Geoff for reminding me of this tweak and inspiring me to give it a more thorough test. And I see you are selling the prewired clips on Audiogon. Any reason why yours might work better than the ones on Amazon? Mine seem to be doing the trick. Would it be worth my while to treat each reef knot with the PWB Cream Electret?

PS: I love how the description of the leads on Amazon says " Keep these handy leads ready for those special tasks"

Alligator leads

Nice!, posted on February 15, 2013 at 16:40:16

geoffkait

Nirmala wrote,

"And I see you are selling the prewired clips on Audiogon. Any reason why yours might work better than the ones on Amazon? Mine seem to be doing the trick. Would it be worth my while to treat each reef knot with the PWB Cream Electret?

That's an interesting question. I think it's safe to say that Cream Electret can be used on any cables and wires, among many other things. It's also probably safe to say I would not wish to overlook any means at my disposal to optimize the hand-made Reef Knot Device. Sorry to be somewhat evasive.

RE: Nice!, posted on February 16, 2013 at 16:11:24
Nirmala Audiophile Posts: 168 Location: Arizona Joined: December 4, 2002	I can understand why you do not want to reveal everything you do on here. Maybe someday I will try your knotted wires and see if I can hear a difference by swapping them with three of my wires.

Sorry, Charlie, posted on February 21, 2013 at 04:44:31

geoffkait

Alain Aspect's famous experiment actually has nothing to do with RFI or EMI and (because it does not) is neither evidence nor proof of any of your wild claims regarding crystals and RFI/EMI, or magnets and RFI/EMI for that matter. You know, dropping names as much as you do is not really a very good game plan if you can't grasp their ideas.

What Alain Aspect's experiment actually demonstrated was that no matter how far apart two elementary particles, such as electrons - which at one time were intimately connected - eventually become, they are still in "communication" with each other - in terms of spin, direction or some other measurable property of the particles. Even if the two particles are light years apart! This was the proof of the Theory of non-locality, a concept in quantum mechanics, a concept closely related to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and the subject of the famous EPR paper. It has nothing to do with how RFI or EMI diminishes over distance as you, for some bizarre and unfathomable reason, gather.

Paul Davies summarised the result of that experiment as follows:

"The Universe is not a collection of objects, but is an inseparable web of vibrating patterns in which no one component has reality independently from the entirety. Included in the entirety is the observer."

Anyway, maybe you'll have better luck next time, Grasshopper.

Princeton - EPR Paradox

The Laughing Goat Award for the most ridiculous post of the month, posted on February 21, 2013 at 05:56:35
geoffkait	Congratulations, you earned it.

RE: The Laughing Goat Award for the most ridiculous post of the month, posted on February 21, 2013 at 14:42:47
mehrdadb_gd Audiophile Posts: 83 Location: tehran Joined: December 20, 2010	Smoother for harsh vibration !

RE: The Laughing Goat Award for the most ridiculous post of the month, posted on February 21, 2013 at 15:44:45
geoffkait	That's rather cruel and unwarranted, don't you think, Megadeath?

RE: The Laughing Goat Award for the most ridiculous post of the month, posted on February 22, 2013 at 12:45:06
mehrdadb_gd Audiophile Posts: 83 Location: tehran Joined: December 20, 2010	Cruel !!!? just a small joke, not jokefight ! Your sense of humor remind me our AC line condition . :-)

RE: The Laughing Goat Award for the most ridiculous post of the month, posted on February 22, 2013 at 13:11:54

geoffkait

Sorry for any misunderstanding. My father always said I should have been a comedian.

:-)

Tweakers' Asylum

Coming soon! - how to make a reef knot device. With photos. Nt

184.188.185.246