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best tweak 2012?

75.101.27.227
Posted on December 31, 2012 at 07:25:35
Ric
Audiophile

Posts: 364
Joined: October 14, 2001
 Sadly, I haven't done much, but since I have yet to use Herbie's products, I am enjoying Barry Controls. These are vibration controls for military applications, now applied to tweakdom via Ebay. They come in different weight ratings and I am using them to good affect under cd, amp and speakers.
Curious to hear your best tweaks/applications from the past year.

 

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Best tweak 2012 - Ground Loops, posted on December 31, 2012 at 11:57:49
DaveT
Audiophile

Posts: 1126
Location: Mid Atlantic (Wash, DC Area)
Joined: September 25, 2000
 By far the most profound tweak I have ever tried is BudP's Ground Loops. The tweak has been around for a while, but I only tried it this year. After reading a suggestion by an inmate, here, regarding these loops; I went about trying the tweak.

My initial foray into this tweak was trying a 26-inch length of speaker cable doubled back on itself to form a loop. The two ends of the loop were stripped, connected together, and attached solely to the negative speaker terminal.

I was literally astounded at what I heard. This initial exposure lead me on an exodus in attempting to understand what BudP had discovered and has subsequently written about. I spent weeks reading and reflecting on what I had read.

I have since built any number of ground loops using various topologies. All work of them work. Some yielded greater returns than others. I demonstrated a set of these loops based on BudP's design to a number of persons at a family gathering. I conducted A/B tests using a boom box as the test platform. Not one member of the adults that listened failed to hear a difference. One was a professional musician all the others were just everyday people. At the end of the session I had to build quite a few sets of ground loops for family members.

I have an audiophile friend that I A/B'ed ground loops on his system. He insisted that I leave my ground loops with him. He has since had three more sets built for his system. He is convinced that there are ground loops secreted inside high-end equipment. Over the past, few months he has, repeatedly, commented on the "new" information he has heard on recordings he has had for years.

This is one of the simplest tweaks I have ever tried, but by far the most rewarding. What you hear is greater detail and a more "pronounced" soundfield (I grasp for words to describe the experience). Unless you are really perplexed by the underlying physics - just try it and enjoy the sonic results. Otherwise, join the quest for understanding this Ground Loop phenomena.

DaveT

 

It gets worse. Much worse., posted on December 31, 2012 at 12:35:35
geoffkait
 You can simply tie two adjacent cables or cords together in a square knot, assuming they're flexible enough. You can also tie a square know in a single cable or cord, even an electrical cord for a floor lamp or computer. If you see what I mean.

 

Basic physics, posted on December 31, 2012 at 20:26:22
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 rule of the right hand

High school stuff

Stu

 

RE: Basic physics, posted on December 31, 2012 at 20:48:34
Ric Schultz
Manufacturer

Posts: 852
Joined: August 7, 2000
 If you keep talking like that I am going to take the Ruler to your right hand......whack....whack....he he. bad boy...sit in the corner.

Happy New Year!!!! May the tweaks be with us! Love and Joy are nice too!

 

RE: Basic physics, posted on December 31, 2012 at 20:53:10
gbehappy2
Audiophile

Posts: 152
Joined: January 27, 2010
 I agree that the ground loops made a difference in my system. However, the tweak that was head, shoulders and waist above all the others was the addition of crystals to my system. The improvement was equal to many thousands of dollars in equipment upgrades. All of the vibration tweaks we discussed were second in line, including adding silicone to my carbon fiber disc mat. Uncle Stu's recend post on charcoal briquettes will rival the crystal tweaks and stand a good chance of surpassing them when all the results are tabulated. Happy tweaking.
kendo

 

Rule of the right hand, posted on December 31, 2012 at 21:01:12
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Actually, I find its application very important in audio. Its a very small thing, usually mentioned only in an incidental passage about currents, covered only in a paragraph, if you're lucky.

Still in building my own IC's and such I follow its principles and achieve a noticeable increase in sound quality. I have written about it before, particularly in my experimentation with ferro fluid filled wires. The winding, both pitch and directionality ( left hand or right hand twist) Is very obvious in my system.

Even in rewiring a tonearm, I observe the rule and it all helps.

Still, I hate when some employ mysticism to disguise basic scientific principles. The mundane does not make for good copy, but I believe establishing the explanation and a rational one at that, helps further the field and progress in audio.

YMMV, obviously....

stu

 

RE: Basic physics, posted on December 31, 2012 at 21:15:44
pixelphoto
Audiophile

Posts: 655
Location: So. Cal.
Joined: December 15, 2009
 Crystals rule!

 

I shared the same experience , posted on December 31, 2012 at 21:48:17
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 That you had. I couldn't believe that a simple loop of wire could make any kind of difference at all. And then, being an old man, I remembered the extra wire running in the ground path of the Tara Lab's Space and Time cable. And then I remembered that the Kimber PBJ has two ground wires and only one hot lead......

Bud has speculated that the surface of the wires in the loop contributes more electrons to the circuit, hence his recommendation of the use of Litz wire. I couldn't find my litz, so I used four inch wide copper foil tape. That worked quite well although a bit cumbersome. I also used Cardas hook up wire, which is a litz type although the gauges are different. That also worked extremely well, although I am not sure if that was due to the fact that Cardas used better copper.

I certainly believe that Bud Purvine's tweak and the simple fact that it works, opens up a new field and era in audio ( and electronics, for that matter).

Incidentally , have you tried it on your video gear? It is particularly effective on the source material, DVD players and thier ilk, as well as cable boxes. My DVD/SACD player is often mistaken for being a blue ray machine or my conventional 1080 P plasma for a three D set.

I often use the TV set for testing as what you can see often translates to audio, but is sometimes easier to notice on video.

Again, YMMV

Stu

 

I continue to sing the praises of..., posted on January 1, 2013 at 03:13:51
BS64
Audiophile

Posts: 2483
Joined: July 17, 2000
 ...Vib-x. I bought a sheet back in 2002 and have cut small pieces from it for a variety of applications on my system. Most notably to support my Cary 303/300 cdp. With the stock feet the bass was bloated. I now use 3-piece stacks of Vib-x, 2 near the rear corners and one underneath the cd drawer.

Also, over the past few weeks I have been slowly tweaking speaker position to great affect. A fellow 'phile enlightened me on the 5th's/7th's/11th's placement guide. I also covered the windows behind my rear-ported speakers with 2" fiberglass panels to tame some lingering bass notes. All worthwhile tweaks. And time is of the essence with kids and a job...

 

Reading comprehension alert, posted on January 1, 2013 at 04:48:54
geoffkait
 At the risk of repeating myself - The sound will be improved by tying a square knot in any single wire or cord or cable in the room, including UNUSED cords and cables, even ordinary electrical cords or computer cables or TV cables. Or tying any adjacent cables together in a square knot. Ditto for any cables and cords NOT in the listening room. Basic high school physics, indeed. HA HA HA

 

Crystals, posted on January 1, 2013 at 04:55:42
geoffkait
 One wonders how many crystals can be in a room before some sort of limit is reached. I had a customer 10 years ago with a $100K system that doubled his system performance with about one pound of crystals distributed around room corners. Let's see, how many thousands of dollars of an improvement is that?

One also has to wonder why crystals have not become more, you know, mainstream. Could there be that many neophobes?

:-)

 

RE: Reading comprehension alert, posted on January 1, 2013 at 05:24:13
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 Did you try granny knots?

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Reading comprehension alert, posted on January 1, 2013 at 05:44:25
geoffkait
 Granny knots are for little old ladies. Symmetrical square knots are for real men. Also called Reef Knots.

 

RE: Square knots, posted on January 1, 2013 at 07:55:30
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 I recall May saying that granny knots didn't work, but I can't recall if that's it or if they made things worse.

I want to believe...

Happy New Year!

Rick

 

RE: Square knots, posted on January 1, 2013 at 09:02:10
geoffkait
 Sheepshank prolly won't work, either.

 

We are all guilty of Confirmation Bias, posted on January 1, 2013 at 09:14:00
johnmil
Audiophile

Posts: 527
Location: Texas
Joined: December 21, 2002
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

If the Tweak Gremlins stole all our tweaks during the night, most
of wouldn't realize they were gone in the morning.

I wish all of you a Healthy, Safe, Happy Year,

John

 

You prolly meant the Backfire Effect, posted on January 1, 2013 at 09:24:48
geoffkait
 Good luck to everyone.

 

I believe sheep shanking is illegal in some states., posted on January 1, 2013 at 18:10:27
uptown fred


 
Possibly not Texas.


 

how many neophobes is it best to try and where?, posted on January 1, 2013 at 18:15:47
uptown fred


 
I was advised the best use of them was to put them all outside the house, evenly split between the bottle shop and the Indian Take Away where their effect would be noticed within about 30-40 minutes.


 

RE: I shared the Ground Loop experience , posted on January 1, 2013 at 20:57:20
DaveT
Audiophile

Posts: 1126
Location: Mid Atlantic (Wash, DC Area)
Joined: September 25, 2000
 I have made litz wire ground loops per Bud's instructions. I purchased the litz wire. In addition, I have made loops of comprised of multiple loops of magnet wire and of CAT5 Teflon clad wire.

I have placed the loops on audio sources as well as speakers. I have yet to try ground loops on video sources. When I do I will report back.

DaveT

 

RE: You prolly meant the Backfire Effect, posted on January 1, 2013 at 22:53:25
djk
Manufacturer

Posts: 6135
Joined: June 17, 2000
Hmmm, sounds too much like religion for my taste.

 

Reading , WRITING and rithmetic, posted on January 1, 2013 at 23:08:26
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Please show in the your previous post where you wrote that. Most readers of the forum are not mind readers, but I know you probably are.....


LOL!

Stu

PS. the right hand rule applies everywhere, too, BTW.

 

LOL !, posted on January 1, 2013 at 23:12:45
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 You ask for credibility but do ever re read your explanations ?

Hardly convincing for mainstream users: channelling time is a good example that would discredit pretty much everything you say.

AA readers have a lot more knowledge than you would suspect.


Stu

 

By all means, posted on January 1, 2013 at 23:14:36
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Please do report back

Stu

 

RE: You prolly meant the Backfire Effect, posted on January 2, 2013 at 07:00:54
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 "Hmmm, sounds too much like religion for my taste."

The backfire effect applies to science as well as religion.


Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Reading , WRITING and rithmetic, posted on January 2, 2013 at 07:36:07
geoffkait
 That's what I like about you, you catch on so fast.

:-)

 

I'm just curious. Do you continue to have both actual speaker wire hooked up? nt, posted on January 2, 2013 at 07:53:02
Norm
Reviewer

Posts: 31024
Joined: September 6, 2000
 a

 

RE: Square knots, posted on January 2, 2013 at 07:58:23
May Belt
Manufacturer

Posts: 681
Location: Leeds UK
Joined: March 16, 2005
 >>> "I recall May saying that granny knots didn't work, but I can't recall if that's it or if they made things worse.

I want to believe..." <<<

Rick m,

It is that Granny knots don't work. It HAS to be a Reef Knot !! And, as Geoff points out, you can make a Reef Knot in passive (unused) cables, anywhere in the listening room, and have a very effective improvement in the sound.

The technique of tying Reef Knots in cables was first demonstrated in the UK (and written about in Hi Fi Answers audio magazine) some 20 years ago.

Regards,
May Belt.
Manufacturer

 

RE: Best tweak 2012 - Ground Loops -photo?, posted on January 2, 2013 at 10:45:30
adaug
Audiophile

Posts: 723
Location: chicago
Joined: December 4, 2007
 thanks for the interesting idea. can you post a photo of a ground loop hook up? i am not clear on whether you are using the same terminals to which your speakers are hooked or an unused set of terminals.


-andre d

 

According to Bud, posted on January 2, 2013 at 11:25:03
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Yes, you can leave the speaker wires hooked up as normal


Stu

 

Have both actual speaker wire hooked up, posted on January 2, 2013 at 11:58:59
DaveT
Audiophile

Posts: 1126
Location: Mid Atlantic (Wash, DC Area)
Joined: September 25, 2000
 Ditto!

The ground loops are added to the negative terminal of the speakers. The wires from the amplifier to the speakers remain in place.

If you like what you hear with the application of the first set of ground loops; then try adding another set of loops to the amplifier end of the speaker wire negative terminals. The effect seems to be cumulative. I have ground loops attached to the RCAs of my sources, as well.

Naysayers, it is easy enough to try out for oneself. The experiment takes less time than making a snide comment in this forum. Maybe the explanation for what is going on is to be had by someone who has yet to try this tweak.

Happy 2013.

DaveT

 

RE: Have both actual speaker wire hooked up, posted on January 2, 2013 at 12:07:50
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 I believe Bud's ideas are correct, or at least his working hypothesis is. It is from Bud's idea I developed the battery ground tweak based on his hypothesis.

The only instance where the application is of limited effect is on balanced components, but here I believe the negtiuve signal path is being fed by a separate negative supply thus ameliorating the need for more electrons as in an unbalanced unit.


YMMV

Stu

 

well I went and tried it, posted on January 2, 2013 at 13:48:22
uptown fred


 
I have come to this discussion late and have missed a lot of talk, but I noticed mention of loops of about 30 inches and I just happened to have two lengths of some old Kimber Kable of that length so I tried it and it certainly seemed to improve things.
Removing the loops was noticeable as well.
So then it occurred to me that I have some old jumpers from when I had a bi-wire arrangement and that of course matched my speaker cable even if they were much sorter lengths.
In they went with just the slightest bit of convincing due to not being hugely flexible over a short length.
The results were immediate and positive.
Taking them out and putting them back in confirmed the improvement.

Which was...

An apparent drop in the noise floor (?) resulting in a sense of greater dynamics and tiny notes decaying for longer.
The bottom end seemed better which was odd because I hadn';t touched the sub-woofer but I am presuming it is to do with a cleaner attack on notes, although this is purely supposition.

Anyways round, it was quick and definite.

Now I will wait a week and then try removing them to finally double check the results.


 

Ain't , posted on January 2, 2013 at 13:57:31
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 it the damnest thing ? Theoretically nothing is supposed to happen, as it is only a loop of wire and nothing is connected to it.

Stu

 

is the ... length... supposed to be important?, posted on January 2, 2013 at 14:29:56
uptown fred


 
I hesitate to mention "girth"...

Is it important to use the same wire as the main speaker cable?

What is the "wire connected to the negative of a battery" tweak?
I missed it through being shipwrecked on a dessert platter for 3 years and I have so much to catch up on.

 

GOOD GREEF! nt, posted on January 2, 2013 at 14:34:55
uptown fred


 
.

 

RE: is the ... length... supposed to be important?, posted on January 2, 2013 at 15:03:45
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 The length is unimportant except for practicality.

Bud used a 6 inch loop, but longer is fine. Too short and the effect is lessened, apparently because there is not enough "electrons" on the wire surface.....

Based on my experience with Bud's tweak, and accepting his explanation of a "surplus" of electrons, I figured a hook up to the negative terminal of a battery would serve the same purpose. It most certainly does, and I augment the battery by hooking up a 10K uF cap to the battery. I've posted on the mod here on the Tweaks asylum, just enter "battery ground tweak" and you should get a bunch of posts about it.

Stu

 

photo, posted on January 2, 2013 at 19:36:04
uptown fred


 

Which means I hope I have gotten the right idea about this... it certainly seems to work.

 

The ... length... supposed to be important?, posted on January 2, 2013 at 19:43:39
DaveT
Audiophile

Posts: 1126
Location: Mid Atlantic (Wash, DC Area)
Joined: September 25, 2000
 I have done a number of approaches to these Ground loops. The length and the girth of the cable have something to do with it, but what I don't know. I have tried building cables based on my computation of the surface area of the ground loops.

I have used various gauges of wire and lengths. All seem to have some effect on the sound. You will either have to direct your queries to someone with better understanding of the phenomena (Bud Pervine, aka BUDP in this asylum); or conduct your own experiments in an nattept to gain greater understanding for yourself.

I am glad to read that such a simple test yielded positive results.

Experimenter 1 Naysayers 0.

DaveT

 

Thanks, posted on January 2, 2013 at 19:47:07
uptown fred


 
The jumpers I have used are just long enough to bend round comfortably.

 

Damn !, posted on January 2, 2013 at 21:12:23
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Those are expensive ends !

Don't recognize the label, are they Kimber ?

Stu

 

RE: photo, posted on January 3, 2013 at 06:41:03
adaug
Audiophile

Posts: 723
Location: chicago
Joined: December 4, 2007
 thanks much for the photo. as usual, worth 1,000 words. until seeing the photo i had a different conception of the loop in mind. will give it a try.

regards


-andre d

 

RE: Best tweak 2012 - Ground Loops -photo?, posted on January 3, 2013 at 11:19:42
Thirsty Ear
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Location: New Jersey
Joined: August 3, 2001
 what if my speakers are Bi-Wire? do i do a loop for bass & treble separate or connect the negative of both to each other? (meaning one end to bass & other to treble binding post)

 

Yes they are indeed Kimber..., posted on January 3, 2013 at 12:17:35
uptown fred


 
... Kimber KS 9033.

I had a lucky eBay buy of the full cables and then happened upon a pair of the jumpers to replace the brass things that had come with the speakers I had back then to biwire.
Now I have a pair of Revels and they don't biwire so the jumpers have been sitting in their rather lavish case for damn near 5 years.

 

If , posted on January 3, 2013 at 13:22:33
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 running single amp, try it on the amp's terminals


Stu

 

RE: If , posted on January 3, 2013 at 13:57:59
Thirsty Ear
Audiophile

Posts: 58
Location: New Jersey
Joined: August 3, 2001
 Stu, im using mono blocs , does that make a difference ?
so if my speakers are bi-wire it wont work on the speakers binding posts?

 

No, it'll work, posted on January 3, 2013 at 16:14:41
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 What I menat was that if you ran a pair of amps perside, then you wuld need a lot of loops. A monoblock running one side is no issue. and a loop mon the amp terminals will definitely work.

If you were to place the loop on one set of speaker terminals the effect will be concentrated on the speaker hooked up to those terminals, although the difference may not be very noticeable. Hooking up a loop to the amplifier terminal affects the whole speaker.

Have fun


Stu

 

I know that, posted on January 3, 2013 at 19:00:32
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 You and Geoff get into it here from time to time. But usually you try stuff that many consider BS. Are you saying by your comment above that you don't believe in and/or haven't tried crystals? I would think you'd be open to them as its well known they passively absorb RFI/EMI. Of course maybe something went over my head here...........


ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

Ground Loops-I just remembered I forgot to try these......., posted on January 3, 2013 at 19:03:53
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 so off to the parts room and I fetched four bananas (once cryo'd by Lee R.I.P.) and soldered 12 ga loops onto them w/WBT silver solder. Put them on my speakers and was quite impressed. I see no logical reason for any improvement yet my ears are not wrong and its not a "maybe I hear something" situation. It's a large difference. I like the fact "we" know less than "we" think we do. Humility is almost always good.


ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: Kimber..., posted on January 3, 2013 at 21:49:57
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 is not true litz construction but they do employ seven different gauges per insulated strand, so in a way they act as a litz wire.

Yours must be the most expensive ground loop tweak I have seen to date !

Enjoy !


Stu

 

Oh Yes...., posted on January 3, 2013 at 22:08:28
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 I have been playing with crystals since 1992 or thereabout. I had been presented with some Shun Mook discs, and they worked ! I bought a few, had them x rayed and then cut one apart, only to find a small faceted 2 mm red stone. Th stone made a greater sonic difference than the wood did, although I eventually lost the stone.

I believe I was the first to post about the crystalline effect over a decade ago, although I got the basic ideas from both Shun Mook and Shakti. I can not take credit for their use.

However the principles upon which I apply the crystal are very different from what Geoff claims. I claim the piezo effect, Geoff claims mechanical resonance, tuned to about 350 Hz, which I find hard to swallow when his rocks are loose in a plastic bag. No doubt when Geoff claims crystalline deformation he is merely referring to what the piezo effect is doing to the crystalline structure, but without having to admit that the mechanical
theory of his is very secondary.

When I posted about crystals, the field was wide open. Most know about the typical piezo crystals like tourmaline and the quartz family, but there are many other crystals with similar properties. It is impossible to try every crystal. Simply researching crystalline properties yields very limited information even with the internet.

I have attempted to be more open about sharing information because it is my firm belief that the field advances faster and further with the collective consciousness being pooled. There will be many who would rather buy a finished product rather than to spend time experimenting so there is still room for the entrepreneur.

Often times I do not quibble with the sonic effects, but rather the explanations offered.


Of course, YMMV


Stu

 

Good post!, posted on January 4, 2013 at 04:30:05
theob
Audiophile

Posts: 3180
Location: ann arbor michigan
Joined: November 4, 2000
 'I have attempted to be more open about sharing information because it is my firm belief that the field advances faster and further with the collective consciousness being pooled. There will be many who would rather buy a finished product rather than to spend time experimenting so there is still room for the entrepreneur.'

Totally agree. Beside your contributions think cmp^2. There was Cics initial magnificient work that has been improved upon by Serge and Jack and countless others. Cheers to 'open sharing of information' as it relates to computer audio.

Good post!



















































I have attempted to be more open about sharing information because it is my firm belief that the field advances faster and further with the collective consciousness being pooled. There will be many who would rather buy a finished product rather than to spend time experimenting so there is still room for the entrepreneur.

 

RE: Best tweak 2012 - Ground Loops, posted on January 4, 2013 at 12:26:56
Sylvio


 
I usually don't post on forums but this subject rings a bell. I have done something similar to this in the past and still use the trick today. The way that I have done is drilling a hole in the frame of the speaker and grounding it on the negative speaker terminal. The results that I have noticed is more details and space. The theory behind this eludes me but I figure that if you increase the ground plane the positive push should have more help while reducing EMI/RIF at the speaker itself. Who knows. I can't prove it but I can hear the difference.

 

RE: Best tweak 2012 - Ground Loops, posted on January 4, 2013 at 14:44:46
banpuku
Audiophile

Posts: 1009
Joined: January 19, 2006
 I just tried BudP's Ground Control tweak using a 6' length of speaker cable (roughly 12 gauge). I was amazed at the sound. I have only listened to 2 LPs so far, but from what I can tell (and the difference was immediately noticeable) the soundstage got wider, deeper and the micro detail was great. I suspect all of these noticeable improvements were due to a reduced noise floor. Once again, easily discernable.

 

RE: Oh Yes...., posted on January 4, 2013 at 18:21:19
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 OK, I see where you are coming from. I love crystals and what they do myself. I finally did the ground tweak and thought that it did much much more than the wire to negative side of a 9V or in my case I tried a 9V and 6AA in a holder too. Cheers.


ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

I wonder why the negative terminal is used only. As long as you don't short the terminals, I don't see what , posted on January 5, 2013 at 10:23:23
Norm
Reviewer

Posts: 31024
Joined: September 6, 2000
 difference it would make.

 

best tweak I have tried let alone 2012!, posted on January 5, 2013 at 12:01:26
Baffled1


 
I have bi wired Nola's . I have hooked up 30" stranded copper wire loops to both negative terminals on each speaker...results are immediate and not subtle:

much lower noise floor
better micro dynamics
better resolution top to bottom in frequency range
huge improvement in soundstage

Wow thanks for this one!

 

That's the weirdest thing......, posted on January 5, 2013 at 13:15:32
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Intellectually there shouldn't be any difference at all.

Bud's theory is that the surface of the wire provides "extra" electrons to the circuit, and because electrons are negatively charged, you need to hook up the wire to the negative terminal.

what this means to the DIYer is that we must all rethink the importance of grounding and how we route the wiring and such (gauges of wire used, etc.).

Carrying all this one step further, sort of "explains" the use of the pyroelectric tourmaline, as in the thread a while back about using the tourmaline hair dryers and haur curlers to improve sound. Tourmaline, when heated, generates electrons.

In light of this "sudden" acceptance of the effect, we all need to go back and look at other tweaks, many of which were deemed to be more psychological rather than based in reality.

Of course YMMV

Stu

 

Have you tried it on the positive side? nt, posted on January 5, 2013 at 13:27:03
Norm
Reviewer

Posts: 31024
Joined: September 6, 2000
 a

 

I guess it depends on what you call a tweak, but this is quite significant. I agree about what improved., posted on January 5, 2013 at 13:30:40
Norm
Reviewer

Posts: 31024
Joined: September 6, 2000
 I think you would have to be deaf to not hear the benefits.

 

Yes, posted on January 5, 2013 at 14:48:47
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 and the effect has not been universal. Worked on a friends headphone set, but not on his speaker (although we were experimenting with the battery ground tweak, so I am extrapolating the results).

Another acquaintance claims good results on the positive terminal only. That has not been my personal experience, however. It's hard to verify as that guy lives about 3500 miles from me......

Why not try it, it can't hurt the components, as long as you use the wire loops and you don't short anything.

Stu

PS Incidentally, Bud's recommendation that you use Litz wire, is interesting. Litz wire, with its stranded, insulated construction, would naturally have a higher capacitance.

I have also tried the tweak but using a large choke with both terminals connected to the negative terminal. That also works quite well. although the choke we used was huge: something like 15 henries and weighing over 20 pounds.

I believe the effect has also a lot to do with electromotive force: copper, silver, platinum and gold are the strongest elements, electromotively in that order. I have noticed just adding a very thin strand of silver to a copper loop improves sound to a degree unexplainable considering how small the silver strand was ( I was using 125 micron pure silver wire, which I normally use for rewiring tonearms).

Hanging my friend's wife's golden wedding ring on the negative speaker terminal also produced a rather startling leap in sonic performance. She , of course, didn't take to the idea of leaving her ring on the terminal....

 

Battery ground tweak, posted on January 5, 2013 at 17:08:53
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 needs a large capacitor to balance tonality. Just the wire to the battery tends to brighten things up, but the 10K uF cap I use restores the bass response, I do have to bypass the cap, much like a power supply applicatin, however.

with the caps, the effect is even greater than the plain ground wire\, at least IMHO.

Of course YMMV

Stu

 

Is the capacitance of litz wire higher on a single strand?, posted on January 5, 2013 at 17:25:54
Norm
Reviewer

Posts: 31024
Joined: September 6, 2000
 I have some around here somewhere. If I can find it, I'll try it.

 

Ground Loop - Bi-Wire, posted on January 5, 2013 at 17:29:58
DaveT
Audiophile

Posts: 1126
Location: Mid Atlantic (Wash, DC Area)
Joined: September 25, 2000
 Up until very recently had ground loops applied in a Bi-Wire configuration. My system has a set of woofer modules and a set of MTM modules.

I had one set of ground loops on the negative speaker terminal of the MTM speaker module; and a set of ground loops on the negative speaker terminal of the woofer modules.

In addition, I had a set of ground loops on the negative terminals of the speaker connectors at the amplifier.

I also have ground loops on my sources.

I have since bi-amped my system and I only have ground loops on the terminals at the woofer modules. I had to check the system in preparation for posting this message. This is when I noticed I did not have ground loops on the amplifier end of the woofer amplifier. I am building a third amp so I will be tri-amping my system. I will have to build more ground loops for the extra amp and speaker cables.

DaveT

 

RE: Yes, posted on January 5, 2013 at 17:47:24
LewinskiH01
Audiophile

Posts: 234
Joined: December 7, 2008
 Thank you all for posting about the loops. I went ahead and gave it a try, twisting two 2mm diameter magnet wires, 8 inches long each, then connected in loop to the negative speaker post. I'm amazed by the improvement!

So if Litz wire is claimed to be better, maybe taking the guts out of several pieces of CAT5 cable, then soldering the ends together should be better than my large gauge twisted pair, right?

Stu: is the effect cummulative if I have the loops on the speaker terminals and then add a loop on the amplifier's speaker terminals?

A very nice tweak indeed!

 

RE: Battery ground tweak, posted on January 5, 2013 at 18:35:35
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 Actually I had no sense of increased or imbalanced HF, it was more of just not hearing much of anything. Loops are really nice though. Just on the negative speaker terminals 2 per speaker as I bi-amp/bi-wire.


ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

Sorry, posted on January 5, 2013 at 19:41:20
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 I'm not sure I understand your question.

Litz construction usually means fine individually insulated wires in an insulated bundle. so if you asking what I think you are ( dangerous assumption), a single litz strand has more capacitance than a single solid core wire.

However even with a full litz construction, capacitance will not that grea, not as freat as adding a capacitor

Hope you're having fun with all of this....


stu.

 

Yes, posted on January 5, 2013 at 19:44:05
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 I haven't tried it, but I imagine simply soldering the ends of a cat 5 cables all together will be an improvement over a simple twisted pair.

I solder my loops to the negative of an RCA end and simply plug it in to unised jacks on a preamp or DVD player: works wonders. And it is extremely easy to AB


Stu

 

An imporasnt thank you , posted on January 5, 2013 at 19:46:36
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 Should go out to Bud Purvine, who generously wrote about and disclosed this tweak.

Thanks, BUD !


stu

 

What does a twisted pair have to do with it? I used just a single wire in my loop. , posted on January 5, 2013 at 20:24:56
Norm
Reviewer

Posts: 31024
Joined: September 6, 2000
 I had an experience that no one else has reported. After about four hours the high end fell off. It returned and was great after about eight hours. It is hard to explain breakin on a wire that does nothing.

 

RE: Is the capacitance of litz wire higher on a single strand?, posted on January 6, 2013 at 02:33:17
LewinskiH01
Audiophile

Posts: 234
Joined: December 7, 2008
 Norm,

Unclestu referred to Budp's earlier posts, and the "surpluss electron supply" notion. I have no idea why this works, but if I follow that concept, more copper means more electrons...so I thought of adding more runs. I had rather thick magnet wire lying around so that was the quick and dirty way to try the tweak out. That's the only reason for the twisted pair.

Budp did mention Litz and dielectric, and I have CAT5 cable (super cheap), so building a Litz-type cable sounds yet like another iteration.

Regarding your comment about sonics improving, then degrading, then back to improved again, one of the many posts I read did mention something like this and the guy was speculating weather-related. He had a very dry few days in Texas, then rain, and he was speculating too-dry an air might be affecting it...just as a cable doing nothing improves sound, might weather affect this tweaks? I'm starting to loose it!!

 

RE: Yes, posted on January 6, 2013 at 02:52:40
LewinskiH01
Audiophile

Posts: 234
Joined: December 7, 2008
 "I solder my loops to the negative of an RCA end and simply plug it in to unised jacks on a preamp or DVD player: works wonders".

Good idea! Will try it out. Do you use it on the preamp unused RCA outputs or inputs?

Regarding the battery ground loop:
I see you use 10,000 uF caps across the battery + and -. Any other characteristics of the caps being used?
I have seen posts about regular 9V batteries and 6V 4Ah batteries. The latter are much larger, therefore more challenging to hide. Have you noticed the 6V 4Ah batteries to perform better for this application?
In your experience, battery ground loops have had more impact placed on your speaker terminals, amp's speaker terminals, or preamp's unused RCAs? Source is not an option for me as it's only a Metrum Octave with no unused RCAs.

Thanks a lot for sharing all this!!

 

RE: What does a twisted pair have to do with it? I used just a single wire in my loop. , posted on January 6, 2013 at 07:00:38
DaveT
Audiophile

Posts: 1126
Location: Mid Atlantic (Wash, DC Area)
Joined: September 25, 2000
 I am not quite sure what you mean by a twisted pair. However, I recall when I used my Teflon clad CAT5 there was some instability in the sonic imagery for a period of time. Teflon is well renown in the DIY audio community of requiring a break in period. My experience with Teflon clad ground loops substantiates that notoriety.

DaveT

 

My loops are ribbon jumpers with no insulation. nt, posted on January 6, 2013 at 07:34:06
Norm
Reviewer

Posts: 31024
Joined: September 6, 2000
 a

 

Having been at this hobby for 45 years, I have often been past the "losing it border." , posted on January 6, 2013 at 10:46:46
Norm
Reviewer

Posts: 31024
Joined: September 6, 2000
 In my case, however, the weather remained cold and rainy throughout the day. I just checked on the sound today. It remains rainy and cold here. I think the ease of the music and the sense of the soundstage is somewhat improved over last night.

When I get back from CES, I'm going to experiment with other cables as loops.

 

RE: System changes over time, posted on January 6, 2013 at 11:05:53
geoffkait
 Weather is undoubtedly responible for ups and downs in audio performance as is time of day and day of the week. I'm pretty sure most audiophiles have experienced better audio performance late at night or early in the morning. Sunday morning might be the very best time for critical listening. Unfortunately, there are other reasons why audio systems might exhibit up and down performance, some of which are pretty obvious, like break-in of components, cables, break-in of contact enhancers. Also changes one makes to the system, even subtle changes, over a period of time; some changes we make we forget, and some are not obvious, innocent things like bringing new books and magazines into the house. All these variables make it difficult to get a bead on what is going when evaluating anything.

 

How close to, posted on January 6, 2013 at 12:50:17
Mungo Jerry
 the audio system do the new books and magazines (that are brought into the house) have to be, to have an effect on the sound?

 

RE: How close to, posted on January 6, 2013 at 13:49:01
geoffkait
 Ideally there should be no books, newspapers or magazines anywhere in the house. I suppose you could at least keep them out of the listening room. Unfortunately, the situation is actually much worse, since ALL media is bad for the sound, including video DVDs, LPs and CDs, if you see what I mean....

 

RE: How close to, posted on January 6, 2013 at 14:41:36
Mungo Jerry
 I can dig all the levels you're coming from.

 

My apologies, posted on January 14, 2013 at 00:30:19
unclestu
Dealer

Posts: 5851
Joined: April 13, 2010
 for being so late in answering.

In my experience, which includes running a few lead acid battery types, I did not notice asignificant difference sonically. I did notice with greter cpoacitance tht the effect is increased, and am running as much as 100KuF on my DVD player. when running tha much capacitance, it becomes very much like a power supply and you need to add a bypass cap to suit your taste. while I use electrolytic caps for the basic uF's I bypass with a 1.5 uF film cap.

You can plug in the battery ground tweak into any RCA jack which is not used, or a phono ground, or a negative speaker terminal with out suffering any harm. Source components seem to benefit the most.


Stu

 

RE: I shared the Ground Loop experience , posted on March 19, 2013 at 23:24:18
Dry Ginger
 Many thanks for this tip of using Ethernet cable. I gave up on the ground loop tip weeks ago after having tried heavy-gauge, single-strand wire to no audible effect and have just had the delight of hearing the quietness after installing the multi-Lutz Cat 5 cable loops on my amp's negative speaker terminals. Next comes Cat 6 cable loops on the speakers' negative terminals. The only challenge is what to do with these floppy spaniels' ears resting behind the amp:-)!

 

RE: I shared the Ground Loop experience , posted on March 20, 2013 at 01:59:01
Dry Ginger
 FYI - The eight wires of Category 6 Ethernet cable, being slightly thicker than those of Categegory 5 cable, are less prone to break on being stripped but I doubt their installed ground loop use conveys any comparative sonic advantage.

 

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