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My Latest DIY Draft (Beta) Build - Resurrected Sansui AU-111

83.99.228.190

Posted on December 27, 2010 at 15:51:21
LinuxGuru
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Posts: 582
Location: European Union
Joined: November 11, 2008



Hi, tube folks!

Finally I've made very nice Christmas and New Year gift for myself - a push-pull amplifier based on legendary Japanese masterpiece of 60th - Sansui AU-111. This is draft (beta) build, without chassis, preamplifier and other things currently under construction.

After quite long and time consuming debugging process amp works really well (in some areas exceeding original specification). 40W RMS per channel (with 6L6GC & 485V B+ voltage), 20Hz - 50KHz frequency response, +/-0.15dB within 20 Hz - 20KHz, 0.2% THD at 10W, 0.8% THD at 40W, 95 dB S/N ratio.
Amp is very stable, even with very long B+, BIAS, 2 pairs of filament cables thrown all across my table, uncut 35 sm transformer leads, there is no oscillation or RF noise pick up.

Output tubes in rolling process - 6L6GC (used in original design), 6550, and 6P3S-E (with 6P3S-E output power is about 30W only). Quite possible I will design another pair of output transformers built for KT88 in order to squeeze out 50 - 60W (there is also another reason for this - I found 6550 sonically superior to 6L6GC, IMHO the same will apply to kT88).

Preliminary listening tests meet expectations in every aspect. Very clean, transparent, warm tube sound. Amplifier is dead silent, no hum even with my head very close to speakers with 98 dB/W/m sensitivity (at 5W they make furniture vibrating in my room). True CFB design allowed triode-like behavior without considerable loss of output power (not pity-shitty imitation with awkward connection of tapped secondary as CFB).

As one can imagine, non-standard output transformers appeared to be a really bad headache. Replicas of original Sansui AU-111 output transformers are available in Europe from Hashimoto at staggering price - 485 EURO/pc (~$638). Its $1276 just for a for a pair transformers! No matter what, this is nothing but crazy.

So, after all, I used output transformers of my own design, custom built on custom sized high-quality GOSS core, 5K primary with separate CFB (104 Ohm R(dc) plate-to-plate), 88H primary inductance at 1V/100Hz, 4/8 Ohm secondary, linear response for up to 100KHz (this is upper limit of my low output impedance generator, I don't have another one to test above 100KHz and don't think it is really necessary).
Despite contrary belief, these toroids can sustain 15mA imbalance of output tube idle current (60mA and 45mA respectively) without any drop at 20Hz/40W power (not even a single dB - seriously). Additionally, I run transformers with the most difficult load imaginable - 20Hz sine-wave (largest flux density B), 36W output RMS at 8 Ohm, 1 hour continuously (enough time to get heat distributed across entire volume of core and winding). Temperature raise of output transformer was only 7 degree C ! They become just barely noticeably warm. ALL vintage output transformer I had within the same time frame get very hot, 80 - 90 degree C or may be even higher, just with music playing at moderate volume.

In final assembly I used double layer PCB, 2 mm thick, with double dielectric layer, and top silk-screening. I built both point to point and PCB units at first, and disbanded p2p as inferior in virtually every aspect (except cost of course, and cumbersome mounting process of tube sockets on PCB).

For debugging and bench testing I assembled stabilized regulated 360-490V/0.5A power supply (shown on the photo on top), with custom power toroid and 5H fixed air gap choke. 60s startup time delay is not working yet as expected but it is not critical at the moment.

Chassis is under construction, I hope to get it in January for acceptable cost price.

I will post update and more pictures at my blog at
http://www.vacuum-tube.eu/wp/?p=423
sometime later.

 

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My Latest DIY Draft (Beta) Build - Resurrected Sansui AU-111, posted on December 27, 2010 at 15:52:26
LinuxGuru
Audiophile

Posts: 582
Location: European Union
Joined: November 11, 2008



PCB - Top

 

My Latest DIY Draft (Beta) Build - Resurrected Sansui AU-111, posted on December 27, 2010 at 15:53:10
LinuxGuru
Audiophile

Posts: 582
Location: European Union
Joined: November 11, 2008



PCB - Bottom

 

6P3S-E Output Power, posted on December 27, 2010 at 22:12:35
Triode_Kingdom
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Posts: 10391
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
How do you account for the limited ouput power produced by the 6P3S-E outputs? Based on your anode voltage, I would have expected 50W+.

 

RE: 6P3S-E Output Power, posted on December 28, 2010 at 01:02:19
LinuxGuru
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Posts: 582
Location: European Union
Joined: November 11, 2008
For 6P3S-E I had to lower B+ voltage to prevent overheating. 6P3S-E have only 20W anode dissipation rate.

 

RE: 6P3S-E Output Power, posted on December 28, 2010 at 05:48:48
Triode_Kingdom
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Posts: 10391
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
I seem to remember several people claiming the 6P3S-E to be closer to 25W dissipation. Also, many are running them close to the 450V level that you noted in your post. How far did you reduce the anode voltage? Were you using fixed bias? What was the OPT primary Z?

 

RE: 6P3S-E Output Power, posted on December 28, 2010 at 07:23:47
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
Jack
The 6P3SE are actually 25 watts dissipation but,you can safely run them at 30 watts. I run 540v on them in the Scott 280s with 350 on the screens but I am making 88 watts out of a pair of amps that were designed with EL34s.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

Rated dissipation, posted on December 28, 2010 at 07:52:28
Mike, I've heard that the issue is when ppl look for data on the Net, often the 6P3S data is listed. NOT the 6P3S-E data. I have never seen the "plain" 6P3S, in use. Have you ever used this tube? Apparently, its plate and screen ratings are much less than the "-E" version.


Thanks!

 

RE: Rated dissipation, posted on December 28, 2010 at 08:05:58
Triode_Kingdom
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Posts: 10391
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
"I have never seen the "plain" 6P3S, in use. Have you ever used this tube?"

One of the used HK stereo amps I bought a couple years ago had them installed in place of 6L6GCs. The plates show color at less than 20W dissipation, and IMO, they sound like garbage. The OP did say he's working with the 6P3S-E though.

 

RE: 6P3S-E Output Power, posted on December 28, 2010 at 08:10:05
Triode_Kingdom
Audiophile

Posts: 10391
Location: Central Texas
Joined: September 24, 2006
Michael, I thought I remembered someone saying the 6P3S-E would show plate color at continuous 25W dissipation. Are yours running black at 30W? Wow, 540V, you must have been a saint in a previous life. :)

 

RE: 6P3S-E Output Power, posted on December 28, 2010 at 08:19:45
TK, the only amps that I've used the 6P3S-E in are older Fenders (OEM dual-6L6GC's). I tried running the Russian tubes at stock RCA 6L6GC settings & they didn't sound too good. Overdrive was too early. Like around "4" on the volume (instead of OEM "6-7"). Tone was very compressed.

The Russian tubes sound the best, in these guitar amps, at around total 36-38 watts of dissipation (for two tubes). That is with about 425-445 VDC on the anodes. Then, they had a nice tone with more headroom. Warmer mids, than usual 6L6GC. But, not as loud or powerful, for obvious reasons.

Believe me, 36 watts is still LOUD. And I tend to run power tubes more conservative in guitar amps than hi-fi, as they are run at higher volume settings for longer periods of time. And they sound better, too.

8^)

 

RE: 6P3S-E Output Power, posted on December 28, 2010 at 09:35:03
LinuxGuru
Audiophile

Posts: 582
Location: European Union
Joined: November 11, 2008
> I seem to remember several people claiming the 6P3S-E to be
> closer to 25W dissipation. Also, many are running them close
> to the 450V level that you noted in your post. How far did
> you reduce the anode voltage? Were you using fixed bias?
> What was the OPT primary Z?

According to 6P3S-E datasheet, max anode dissipation is 20.5W, max cathode current 90mA. You can overdrive 6P3S-E, but it will not survive 5000 hours as expected.
My setup was 420 - 430V, idle current 40mA.
Yes, BIAS is fixed, look at 4 small trim pots on PCP.
Primary Z + CFB = 5K

 

RE: 6P3S-E Output Power, posted on December 28, 2010 at 13:02:16
Michael Samra
Dealer

Posts: 36118
Location: saginaw michigan
Joined: January 30, 2005
Im running black at 30 watts as long as they are matched.Even running them with a slight glow doesn't seem to affect them in a negative way. The 540 is because I am running much lower voltage on the SG and regulating the screens.
"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong" H. L. Mencken

 

RE: Rated dissipation, posted on December 28, 2010 at 18:25:01
Jim McShane
Dealer

Posts: 5928
Location: Chicago
Joined: January 13, 2003
I routinely run them at well over 20 watt dissipation, even over 25. I do this when matching/testing/etc. They've run over 20 watts in Ampeg B-15Ns for hours at a time in the recording studio in the hands of a Grammy winning bassist (Phil Palombi) who does not baby it by any stretch....

I have NEVER had one show any plate color even at about 27 watts.

I suspect you had some bad examples there.

 

Jim, just to be sure..., posted on December 28, 2010 at 22:43:40
You are talking 6P3S-E tubes and not 6P3S (no "E") in that sweet Ampeg amp. Correct?

 

RE: Jim, just to be sure..., posted on December 29, 2010 at 08:19:55
Jim McShane
Dealer

Posts: 5928
Location: Chicago
Joined: January 13, 2003
You are correct Steve! 6P3S-E are the tubes used in the Ampeg.

 

RE: Rated dissipation, posted on January 3, 2011 at 12:29:25
twystd
Audiophile

Posts: 2723
Location: Austin,Texas
Joined: December 9, 2000
I've used the plain old 6P3S, and I second Triode_Kingdom's opinion, they do sound pretty bad. I had high hopes for them, as they were 1964 production, pretty disappointing!8-(

twystd

 

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