Speaker Asylum

General speaker questions for audio and home theater.

Return to Speaker Asylum

Message Sort: Post Order or Asylum Reverse Threaded

External Crossover For ATC SCM19's

65.96.137.241
Posted on November 27, 2015 at 17:23:03
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1403
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008



I've enjoyed listening to a pair of ATC SCM19's for a couple of years now. When the V.2 version came out, was tempted to sell my 19's and get the V.2.

Instead, after conducting research, decided to re-do the existing crossovers. For some reason, many of the higher end speakers seem to have pedestrian parts for their expensive drivers.

The results have been amazing. Overall clarity has gone way up. Vocals sound like the folks singing are in the room. Some instruments, like piano also sound very real. The treble is especially improved, much cleaner. In fact, I would put these up against the stock V.2 version.


" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

Hide full thread outline!
    ...
RE: External Crossover For ATC SCM19's, posted on November 27, 2015 at 20:26:58
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4528
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 And getting a microphonic crossover away from the interior of a speaker plus moving it further away from the driver magnets doesn't hurt either.

By the way your 5 watt Klipsch comment certainly doesn't apply to the inefficient ATC speakers. And I am a big ATC fan.

 

RE: External Crossover For ATC SCM19's, posted on November 28, 2015 at 06:17:04
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1403
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
 Good point. Didn't even consider the microphonic aspect. My primary motivation was to clean up the sound as best as possible, given the fact that the SCM19 has top shelf drivers, but the crossover parts didn't match the driver quality. Just using non inductive Mills resistors alone helps out a lot compared to the stock resistors. The Mundorf caps and foil coils also help.

Many of my favorite recordings sound as if a "master recording version" was suddenly discovered. Much bigger difference for the better than I thought it would be.


BTW, the Paul Klipsch reference harkens back to the golden age of audio. There still is something special about listening to a tricked out set of K-Horns (or high end horn setup) through a single ended triode amp. Not practical for many living conditions. Therefore, monitor/sub solutions work well.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

Excellent, posted on November 28, 2015 at 06:57:12
hawkmoon
Audiophile

Posts: 918
Location: cleveland
Joined: July 11, 2003
 Excellent! Plus you can change things down the road if you want!

 

RE: External Crossover For ATC SCM19's, posted on November 28, 2015 at 09:19:30
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 Nice. I was an ATC dealer and saw the x-over many years ago a pic of all that was removed would be nice for comparison.

ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: External Crossover For ATC SCM19's, posted on November 28, 2015 at 13:48:32
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1403
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008



Here is a picture of the stock crossover. As can be seen, there is a large difference between the stock unit and the outboard crossover.

Seems like high end speakers should provide the option of outboard crossovers.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: External Crossover For ATC SCM19's, posted on November 28, 2015 at 19:09:36
MikeCh
Audiophile

Posts: 1115
Joined: November 16, 2002
 Why not leverage what ATC already knows and go fully active?

 

Good Question..., posted on November 29, 2015 at 05:35:58
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1403
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
 No question that ATC active speakers sound outstanding.

I am a tube guy at heart. Own a couple of higher powered tube amps, tube preamp, and a Mac SS preamp, along with a high powered McIntosh SS power amp with autoformers. The combination of the ATC with the updated crossovers and any of the above amps is also outstanding.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: Good Question..., posted on November 29, 2015 at 08:18:19
MikeCh
Audiophile

Posts: 1115
Joined: November 16, 2002
 >> No question that ATC active speakers sound outstanding.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that.

ATC has acknowledged that multi-amping with electronic crossovers produces better sound than the same speakers that they sell with conventional, high-level, passive crossovers.

I would have thought you would have gone down that route with your crossover rebuild, especially now knowing that you own multiple amps.

Anyway, congrats w/your upgrade.

 

No worries.., posted on November 29, 2015 at 09:12:48
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1403
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
 I didn't take offense. Your observation is spot on. :-).

One day, will likely go down the active crossover road. Need to research the task more first. Also, the extra gear would be a challenge in the current room it's in.

I've talked to a few friends who tried the active bi-amp route. They told me it was not as easy as it sounds, and they were not sure it was worth the expense and effort. Certainly, a ATC speaker already engineered to do just that addresses the problem quite nicely.

Still, at some point, will likely try a active crossover bi-amp setup.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: No worries.., posted on November 29, 2015 at 13:59:23
hahax@verizon.net
Audiophile

Posts: 4528
Location: New Jersey
Joined: March 22, 2006
 Going to an ATC active speaker is the way to go. The biggest mistake many make is using a generic active crossover which assumes ideal drivers. No drivers are close to ideal and good crossover designers design crossovers to compensate for this so their crossovers are never classic generic. The same thing needs to be done for active crossovers. Different drivers need different adjustments. The big advantage of active crossovers is spreading the load among amps(can also be done with passive multi-amping) and especially better coupling to the drivers. The amp only has to see the inductance of the driver it's hooked to, not the complex combination of inductance and capacitance with a passive crossover.

 

RE: No worries.., posted on November 29, 2015 at 15:13:00
MikeCh
Audiophile

Posts: 1115
Joined: November 16, 2002
 If the time ever comes to go active, the OP would need to replicate the transfer curve of his passive crossover, so an off-the-shelf unit would not be suitable. Fortunately there are a good selection of DSP units available that would be up to the task (some better than others).

 

RE: No worries.., posted on November 29, 2015 at 15:41:57
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1403
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
 I was looking at the First Watt B4 active crossover. From reading the website, looks like it could be set up to replicate the passive crossover rather easily.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: No worries.., posted on November 29, 2015 at 17:34:26
MikeCh
Audiophile

Posts: 1115
Joined: November 16, 2002
 It "will work" but it won't replicate the transfer curve of your ATC crossover.

 

RE: External Crossover For ATC SCM19's, posted on November 30, 2015 at 16:54:13
Coytee
Audiophile

Posts: 95
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: May 19, 2010
 If going active could be a consideration for someone (not specifically directed at you Freo), why not simply contact the manufacturer and see if they have the parameters that you'd need for an active?

I understand they might not give any info....then again, they might and if they did (like Klipsch did with their Jubilee) then it simply becomes a matter of plug & play.

Believe me.....if a dolt like me can go active (literally) overnight, anyone can.

 

RE: External Crossover For ATC SCM19's, posted on November 30, 2015 at 19:56:16
Awe-d-o-file
Dealer

Posts: 21037
Location: 50 miles west of DC
Joined: January 10, 2004
 Thanks,yes a big difference. Not many speakers use foil inductors but they are great. Good resistors make a big difference and we all know caps and their importance. I upgraded crossovers a few times.

ET
ET

"If at first you don't succeed, keep on sucking till you do suck seed" - Curly Howard 1936

 

RE: External Crossover For ATC SCM19's, posted on December 1, 2015 at 15:50:51
Davey
 Either ATC doesn't consider the crossover parts pedestrian, or they don't have an appreciation for non-pedestrian parts. Or, another conclusion.... :)

You've demonstrated that higher-end crossover yielded significant improvement.

Considering the price point of these speakers, it makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Dave.

 

I don't think they are alone..., posted on December 1, 2015 at 16:01:16
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1403
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
 The ATC's used Bennic parts. They are OK, but not the quality of the parts being used now. They also won't fit inside the cabinet. :-)

My buddy has worked on many speakers over the years. He has told me that he has worked on a lot of high end speakers that had pedestrian parts. The cabinets are expensive, drivers are expensive, but crossovers, not so much. He told me about a Dali two way monitors that were very expensive. After building an external set of crossovers with high quality parts, the speakers sounded much better (more in line with their cost).


Honestly, don't know why so many high end speakers don't have higher quality parts.

" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

RE: I don't think they are alone..., posted on December 1, 2015 at 16:37:11
Davey
 I know why. Because it directly affects the profit margin. :)
The question that remains is.....why don't they include higher quality parts and elevate the price accordingly?

Bean-counters and/or engineers trump the serious listeners at ATC?

I hope you made your crossover modification reversible. Weird to say, but this type of modification will drive down the value should you go to sell them.

Dave.

 

RE: I don't think they are alone..., posted on December 1, 2015 at 17:16:36
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1403
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
 I was thinking that keeping the product to a specific price point might be involved with the final product. Their drivers have to cost a small fortune to make. The magnet on the woofer is as big as the driver itself, and weighs over 9KG.

It is easy to re-install the stock crossover if/when they get sold.


" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

Or another conclusion!..., posted on December 1, 2015 at 17:53:11
Steve O
Audiophile

Posts: 13242
Location: SE MI
Joined: September 6, 2001
 ...not meaning to butt into an interesting thread near the end of its life, but......have you considered that ATC "voiced" the speakers to sound the way they do with the "pedestrian" passives? IOW, the Xover/driver/box design is an overall system where less than ideal performance in individual components are designed to offset each other so that the net result approaches the ideal. By replacing original "flawed" components with less flawed versions, the balancing act has been upset. That the revised Xover sounds better could be real or it could be just that ATC's original (and intended) voicing wasn't ones cup of tea in the first place. Or it could be expectation bias. Or some combination.

I bring up this possibility because I've heard more than a few speakers whose essential character was significantly changed and not always for the better, when "crappy" high ESR NP electrolytics were replaced by top notch film-n-foil caps of same basic value. What wasn't accounted for in the upgrade was the fact that the designer was aware of the cap's shortcomings and compensated for them in the OA speaker design.

 

RE: I don't think they are alone..., posted on December 2, 2015 at 08:24:55
Davey
 Yeah I understand about meeting a price point, but the price point is fairly high in this instance. I understand they make their own drivers and are not sourcing them from off-shore, but it seems they are not prioritizing other parts of the systems adequately.
It would seem that better crossover parts (at a slightly higher cost) could be incorporated and provide a significant value increase?

You've noted that other speaker manufacturers do the same thing. It seems you're concluding this is an inherent problem with the designs of many commercial systems and that questionable decisions are being made. I don't think you're alone in that opinion, but it does raise the question(s) that I have been alluding to.

Cheers,

Dave.

 

A good post. (nt), posted on December 6, 2015 at 15:35:25
kuma
Audiophile

Posts: 10414
Location: IN
Joined: July 8, 2001
 .

 

RE: Or another conclusion!..., posted on December 8, 2015 at 14:42:04
Freo-1
Audiophile

Posts: 1403
Location: Florida
Joined: June 14, 2008
 Interesting observation. I own two sets of the SCM19's, so I have been able to compare the stock sound vs. the updated crossovers.

The overall tonal balance between the two seems to remain very similar. The bass on the updated crossover seems slightly fuller. Where the differences are noted is primarily one of increased clarity across the entire spectrum. Vocals and stringed instruments sound closer to a live source. The treble is where the most improvement is noted.

My take regarding the difference is that the Mills non-inductive resistors may have more to do with the clarity than the caps. Some years ago, had a vintage Threshold which was re-done with Mills emitter resistors. That made a marked difference in playback.
" Don't look back. Something may be gaining on you"

Satchel Paige

 

Page processed in 0.039 seconds.

[ Top Top of Page ] [ Contact Us ] [ Support/Wish List ] [ Copyright © 2025, Audio Asylum, all rights reserved ]
[ General ] [ Speakers ] [ Tubes ] [ Vinyl ] [ Digital ] [ Hi-Rez ] [ Video Asylum ] [ Cables ] [ Tweaks/DIY ] [ Music ] [ Films ]