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Looking to go "full range"

64.102.254.33
Posted on March 5, 2011 at 12:06:29
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 I think this Spring, I'm going to sell all my current speakers and get my first pair of truly full range speakers. I already have the big Plinius amp/pre; the question will be what to match them with. I've been looking at:

Revel Ultima Salon 2
Joseph Audio Pearl 2
Kef Reference 207/2

The Josephs are outside my budget @ $28k, (but I loved them!). The Revels are pushing it at $22k. Ideally, I'd love to spend (a lot) less than that.

I know I've missed a bunch. Any suggestions? Comments?

Thanks in advance ....



Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

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B&Ws should be a contender., posted on March 5, 2011 at 12:51:57
free.ranger
Audiophile

Posts: 16985
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Joined: April 8, 2004
 The 800 Diamond sells for ~$24k/pair; the 802D ~$15k.

 

I'd love to spend (a lot) less than that. , posted on March 5, 2011 at 13:02:17
Craiger56
Audiophile

Posts: 5694
Location: San Jose CA
Joined: April 3, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 29, 2003

Me too, I'll say Vandersteen Quatro

 

RE: Looking to go "full range", posted on March 5, 2011 at 13:56:15
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 12510
Location: Fredericton NB
Joined: June 20, 2000
 A big Plinius amp should drive most speakers very well. I'm sure the Joseph Audio, Revel, and Kef speakers you mention are very fine. I can suggest a couple of others that cost quite a bit less.

PSB Synchrony One

Paradigm Signature S8

You could always look at another Merlin speaker.

-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

Tyler Acoustics, posted on March 5, 2011 at 14:10:32
B.Zak
 You'll get the same sound quality as the high priced spread..for much less. Plus you'll get to work with Ty Lashbrook..one of the real good guys in audio,today.

 

RE: Tyler Acoustics, posted on March 5, 2011 at 14:26:40
DKL
Audiophile

Posts: 1065
Location: Deland, FL
Joined: November 20, 2001
 concur - Ty is great and he makes a good product at reasonable prices...

 

In your price range, two or three speakers are really intriguing to me..., posted on March 5, 2011 at 14:45:24
genungo
 First, there's the VMPS RM50, at 12,900 a pair for the base model. Then, there's the Quad ESL-2905. Also, a bright red pair of Avantgarde Unos or Duos would be very nice.

 

RE: Tyler Acoustics, posted on March 5, 2011 at 14:50:12
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 I didn't get to hear the Tyler's at RMAF long enough to get an impression, sadly. They look pretty big. Which might be a problem? In my room, which is rather large, the config isn't optimal. So, while it'll support deep bass (40' deep), I am only sitting less than 10' back from the front baffle. And really big speakers, like the Legacy Whisper, I'm told are "best" when you're back a bit. Not sure about the Tylers in this regard .....


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

RE: In your price range, two or three speakers are really intriguing to me..., posted on March 5, 2011 at 14:51:17
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 I've never heard the VMPS. Seem interesting.

As for the Quad -- I love them. LOVE them. But not only is my amp "too much" for them, they're not even close to full range, esp "in room".


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

RE: Looking to go "full range", posted on March 5, 2011 at 14:52:46
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 I like the PSB -- heard that at RMAF. Quite enjoyed it. Not quite as deep or refined as I'm looking for, but for the price, a knockout.

Nothing wrong with Merlin, either. Have a pair and love them. But I'll be looking for a bit more on the bottom, if that makes sense.


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

RE: I'd love to spend (a lot) less than that. , posted on March 5, 2011 at 14:54:30
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 I forgot all about Vandersteen! I was originally thinking Model 5, but I'll need to circle back on either. Problem is, they're really hard to audition ....


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

RE: Looking to go "full range", posted on March 5, 2011 at 14:54:49
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 Thanks for all the responses! Keep them coming .....


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

System Audio, posted on March 5, 2011 at 14:58:59
Prisoners
Audiophile

Posts: 4494
Location: Chicago
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 Only problem is they are looking for a new distributor in the US. They had several dealers (one here in Chicago), maybe there are some in your area. The good news is they can most likely be had at big discounts and I think they sound fantastic. I bought almost $10k worth of demos but paid about 1/3 of the MSRP.

 

If $20k is your budget, posted on March 5, 2011 at 15:10:05
Mike K
Audiophile

Posts: 14063
Location: 97701
Joined: September 23, 1999
 and you have a big enough room, Magnepan 20.1s and 3.7s should be
considered, and they are well below your target amount.

I'd certainly also look at Martin Logans and Quads.

If you prefer box speakers, I think you must consider Avalons and
Harbeths. When I heard the Avalon Eidolons (not the Eidolon Diamonds)
a while back, I was positively enthralled, and I'm not typically a
box speaker type of guy.

Happy Hunting.

MK

Lack of skill dictates economy of style. - Joey Ramone

 

I'd be looking at the, posted on March 5, 2011 at 15:15:32
kavakidd
Audiophile

Posts: 20316
Location: Upstate NY
Joined: April 15, 2004
 Vandersteen 5a in that price range
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain

 

RE: If $20k is your budget, posted on March 5, 2011 at 15:17:06
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 I was actually considering the Maggies, sure. The 3.7 looks very tempting. Deep bass is apparently still absent, however -- and moving up to the 20.1 helps only a bit (I've auditioned these in the past). Anyway, the dealers should be getting their demo units in sometime in the next month or two.

Quads are great, and I've had good (but also mediocre) experiences with ML. Not sure I'm up for planars, though.


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

Don't forget to look at the big three..., posted on March 5, 2011 at 15:42:24
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 ...IMO in the under $20k price range:

Wilson Audio Sophia 3

Thiel 3.7

Vandersteen 5a (mentioned before)

Have fun.

 

how about Von Schweikert?, posted on March 5, 2011 at 15:59:00
troporobo
Audiophile

Posts: 1648
Location: Manila
Joined: June 6, 2003
 I'm no expert in this category, but I have been really impressed at demos of the Von Schweikert VR-5. I heard them back to back with Wilson Sophias at a show last year and (IMO of course) there was no contest

 

Add the Vandersteen Quatros to your list (nt), posted on March 5, 2011 at 16:01:25
Bill Way
 nt

 

RE: Don't forget to look at the big three..., posted on March 5, 2011 at 16:01:43
Jack D II
Audiophile

Posts: 1535
Location: Hot Springs, AR
Joined: June 17, 2009
 Two I would certainly include are the Maggie 3.7s and the NOLA Metro Grand Reference both of which have taken sound up a notch from the competition according to the latest reviews.

 

Near live, posted on March 5, 2011 at 16:15:09
tmsorosk
 There is no substitute for the live performance . Except maybe the Salons .

 

RE: System Audio, posted on March 5, 2011 at 16:37:03
srdavis2000
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Posts: 10986
Location: Deep South
Joined: January 11, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 16, 2004
 I have heard a few of the SAs and auditioned some for a friend who bought a pair to replace Merlins. They actually sound similar to Merlins to me and they are definately a lot of speaker for the money.

 

RE: Looking to go "full range", posted on March 5, 2011 at 17:27:16
Sunya
Audiophile

Posts: 595
Joined: July 11, 2007
 .

 

RE: Looking to go "full range", posted on March 5, 2011 at 17:29:34
Bill the K
Audiophile

Posts: 8621
Joined: June 3, 2006
 Why spend so much.Go for the top Merlin floorstander.Loved by every single owner and a sense of belonging to the Family.Lovely finish too.

Cheers
Bill

 

RE: Looking to go "full range", posted on March 5, 2011 at 17:50:22
Pat D
Audiophile

Posts: 12510
Location: Fredericton NB
Joined: June 20, 2000
 You could always get a good subwoofer, many of which will blow away most full range speakers in the low bass.


-----
"A fool and his money are soon parted." --- Thomas Tusser

 

A fool an his money, posted on March 5, 2011 at 18:33:41
tmsorosk
 Pat .. This fool has a great hifi and listens to it every day . Do you think I would be happier with R.R.S.P.s .
" You can't take it with you , and the kids will only fight over it . " Tim Soroski

 

here's a few, posted on March 5, 2011 at 19:19:43
Joe Murphy Jr
Audiophile

Posts: 4424
Joined: February 3, 2001
 Worth considering, even if you buy used: Avalon Acoustics. Check out the Eidolon Diamond, Eidolon or even the Indra. I'll also suggest Legacy Audio for their Focus HD or Focus SE speakers.

 

RE: If $20k is your budget, posted on March 5, 2011 at 19:54:16
macmagman
Audiophile

Posts: 501
Location: NW Indiana
Joined: October 17, 2010
 Get the Maggies and add a subwoofer or two. I am running a Velodyne with mine and you would still be well under 20K.

 

RE: Tyler Acoustics, posted on March 5, 2011 at 20:11:24
DKL
Audiophile

Posts: 1065
Location: Deland, FL
Joined: November 20, 2001
 I owned almost the entire previous line of Tyler speakers from the Taylo, to the Linbrook monitor, the Ref 3 two-piece setup and finally the Linbrook Signature. All very good - the Ref 3 actually had the deepest bass...but I own Merlin VSM-MXe's now (with the Master BAM and RCs on the way) and I can tell you the Tylers don't hold a candle to the VSMs in term of musicality which is much more important to me than the ultimate in bass response. If I ever upgrade further it will be to add subs...

 

The Nola is over $20k....(nt), posted on March 5, 2011 at 22:57:32
mkuller
Audiophile

Posts: 38130
Location: SF Bay Area
Joined: April 22, 2003
 (nt)

 

"Full range" speakers, posted on March 6, 2011 at 00:32:20
Frihed89
Audiophile

Posts: 15703
Location: Copenhagen
Joined: March 21, 2005
 I don't own a pair, in part because my room is very small.

But my experience is that there are some 2-way speakers that can go quite low and present a far more enjoyable and relaxing presentation of recorded music than some "much heralded" full-range speakers, and also present much easier loads to drive to your amps.

I am not sure I have to say this and excuse me if it is insulting, but try to listen to the "whole package" before you count the drivers.

OK...If I had a big room, Ayre electronics, and I could only pick full range speakers in your price range, then based on my musical preferences, I'd get "the big" Vandersteen's, which were the most satisfying full range speakers i have heard in my 4 visits to RMAF. The most satisfying, over all, would have to be the Marten Coletrane or Audio Note AN-E SEC Signature, but both are out of your budget range ).

 

Check out his system., posted on March 6, 2011 at 05:00:47
srdavis2000
Audiophile

Posts: 10986
Location: Deep South
Joined: January 11, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 16, 2004
 Merlins is what he wants to replace. IMO, he may be in for a bumpy ride and a little disappointment unless he gets lucky.

 

RE: Looking to go "full range", posted on March 6, 2011 at 05:21:16
jazz1
Audiophile

Posts: 2891
Joined: October 30, 2000
 From personal experience and if big orchestral works are your type of music, a speaker that can move air is really important, I did not hear a 2 ways that can do that yet, they just cannot reproduce the scale of the music. It is not only how low down the speakers can go as a sub can always be added but a good 3 ways will always be better than a 2 ways.

 

RE: Check out his system., posted on March 6, 2011 at 06:24:52
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 Yes, I have the new Merlins right now.

They're excellent in every way that matters, and the only drawback I can point to with them has nothing to do with the speakers, it's the room: it's big.

I really value coherence, "clarity" and deep bass. Which makes a full-range speaker a must while my budget makes it a challenge.


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

RE: here's a few, posted on March 6, 2011 at 06:30:13
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 I've not paid much serious attention to the Legacy Audio speakers. I was initially drawn to the Whisper, but it's just a little bit huge. Not to say that this is a bad thing, but I'm not sure I am able to sit far enough back to make this a viable choice. That's a lot of drivers! My suspicion is that distance is required before they knit together well. As for their "regular" floorstanders, I've never heard them.

As for Avalon, I've not heard the Eidolons, but I recall not being a fan of the Indra. I think that system was being driven by an all-Macintosh system, and while all the blue lights were awesome, I remember thinking that those lights were the only awesome thing going on. On the flip side, I remember that the Transcendants sounded spot-on at RMAF last year. What to do.


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

RE: Looking to go "full range", posted on March 6, 2011 at 06:32:47
jimmyjames
Audiophile

Posts: 4284
Location: Raleighwood
Joined: February 20, 2001
 The original Revel studio and salon are 2 of the best sounding speakers I have heard in 40 years in this hobby. The newer models, not so much. For a lot less money, Aerial Acoustics model 7b, now the 7T are contenders. Of cousre the 20T is in a whole nuther class.

 

RE: Tyler Acoustics, posted on March 6, 2011 at 06:37:36
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 Interesting that you say that! I think that subs certainly add something to the Merlins, but integrating them when you're using a BAM is a bit of a challenge. Which is one of the main reasons I'm looking to get a different speaker for that big room of mine. Anyway, I've had some luck with Rythmik F12Gs for matching. I'd also recommend a preamp with a line out so that you can send the signal to an offboard processor like the Velodyne SMS-1 to reverse that roll-off the BAM introduces.


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

RE: Looking to go "full range", posted on March 6, 2011 at 06:43:32
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 I agree, but only up to a point. To move air, you need surface area. And a 2-way, by it's design, really can only do so much. That said, it's easier to screw up a 3 way than a 2 way.

For me, it's not a matter of the number of drives, but more one of coherence. I want seamlessness with extension. Which is really hard to do with a 2-way.


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

I beg to differ...., posted on March 6, 2011 at 07:50:08
B.Zak
 "Tylers don't hold a candle to the VSMs in term of musicality"

I take it you never heard the Woodmeres then...

 

RE: Looking to go "full range", posted on March 6, 2011 at 07:53:55
jazz1
Audiophile

Posts: 2891
Joined: October 30, 2000
 I am obviously refering to a high quality 3 ways being better than a similar quality 2 ways. I always find 2 ways speakers sounding small
In actual fact when going to a classical concert one of the obvious
fact is how big it sound.
Sure I've heard great 2 ways but IMHO unable to reproduce a big orchestra
as well as a great 3 ways or 4 ways.

 

RE: I beg to differ...., posted on March 6, 2011 at 08:14:21
DKL
Audiophile

Posts: 1065
Location: Deland, FL
Joined: November 20, 2001
 Correct - I've not heard the Woodmeres - but they all seem to have had a very similar house sound. Tylers are excellent - that's why I continued to upgrade through the line. Just not as realistic (to my ears) as the Merlins (and that also includes the smaller Merlin TSMs)

 

RE: Tyler Acoustics, posted on March 6, 2011 at 08:19:16
DKL
Audiophile

Posts: 1065
Location: Deland, FL
Joined: November 20, 2001
 Right - the VSMs aren't designed to fill a room of your size so you do have a challenge. I'm just saying that it will be tough to match the rest of the audio band (outside the low bass) anywhere near the price of the Merlins. Luckily I don't have a room your size, and don't plan to add a sub :)

Sounds like you're entering mega-priced speaker land, so it should be fun auditioning!

 

RE: Check out his system., posted on March 6, 2011 at 08:29:43
srdavis2000
Audiophile

Posts: 10986
Location: Deep South
Joined: January 11, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 16, 2004
 I know. I looked at your system. You say that you value coherence, clarity and deep bass. Don’t we all? I know that you have the first two and am not sure why you don’t have the third as you seem to have subs.

Before Merlins, I had full range speakers. The bass was problematic in my room in that I had bass nodes that dictated set-up and listening position out of whack with everything else we wanted to do with the room. Full range can present full range problems. I now use a JL Audio sub to supplement and it corrects for the worst bass node. Without the correction, I have the same problem as I had with the full range speakers. With the correction, I pretty much have full range sound without any of the drawbacks.

But here is what I have found. The Merlins produce most of the music that I listen to with no need of bass augmentation. Granted I’m no organ aficionado. There are passages in some music that I found missing with the Merlins that I had enjoyed with the full range speakers. That was what pushed me to get the sub. Certain passages that I was used to hearing just didn’t have the impact with the Merlins. Like everyone, I wanted it all. The surprise for me was that once I got the sub, I realized how few those times were when the bass actually extended below what the Merlins could do on their own. The sub is basically an addition to a once in a while gee whiz, did you hear that 15 second experience.

I have gotten to listen to quite a few full range speakers. Some of them have sounded quite good, but I can’t name any that have had the coherence and clarity that you mention being important to you when compared to the Merlins. I am sure there must be some out there, but as I said, IMO you are going to have to get a little lucky to find something to beat what you have without giving up something you have. If you don’t get lucky, you could experience a disappointing setback. But hey, that is what this audiophile thing is about for some people. Personally, I just want a system good enough to allow me to enjoy my music portrayed in a way that I prefer it. To be honest, I would probably jump around more if I had more money or less responsibilities. The point of diminishing returns is pretty personal in this hobby. Good luck, but be careful.

 

RE: Looking to go "full range", posted on March 6, 2011 at 08:49:40
srdavis2000
Audiophile

Posts: 10986
Location: Deep South
Joined: January 11, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 16, 2004
 You have a point about big sound needing big air movement. There are many speakers out there, and I have only heard a sampling, but the only ones that I have experienced doing justice to a full blown orchestra at high volume were the giant Wilsom MAXX XXs. On the other hand, they didn't do the smaller more intimate music as well as what he has. With the Wilsons, the treble midrange and bass could be clearly heard as separate entities on smaller music. On the big stuff, it was more about the power of the sound and the coherence wasn't noticable. The Wilsons may not have been set up optimally or we may not have been at the correct listening distance. They were great speakers, but out of his price range anyway.

Still, it's true that you can't pull a tactor trailer with a 370Z. But then you can't run a slalom course with an an eighteen wheeeler.

 

RE: Tyler Acoustics, posted on March 6, 2011 at 09:05:34
srdavis2000
Audiophile

Posts: 10986
Location: Deep South
Joined: January 11, 2003
Contributor
  Since: December 16, 2004
 The JL Audio sub I use is extremely flexible and mates well with the Merlins. It has a low bass boost control that can be finelt tuned to reverse reverse the roll off of the BAM. You can also remove the BAM, and get a pretty seemless integration with the JL, but it is a poor trade off as from the midrange up the sound deteriorates without the BAM. It leans out and lacks fullness. I prefer the BAM in and the sub turned nearly off.

In my room, with the music I listen to, the sub isn't worth what I paid for it. At this point, I have it so use it, but very judiciously.

 

room size , posted on March 6, 2011 at 09:05:37
Joe Murphy Jr
Audiophile

Posts: 4424
Joined: February 3, 2001
 Re: the Focus vs the Whispers, the Focus will fill a large room, in the bass area, better than the Whispers. Each speaker was built with different design goals. If you can get to a dealer for an audition, it would be worth it to see what each speaker can do. The sensitivity of the Focus (96 dB @ 4 Ohms) allows them to play nice with lower powered amps, but they'll really kick it up a notch when fed from a bigger amp. I own an earlier version of the Focus than what is shown on their site.

I met Bill Duddleson in Orland FL several years ago when one of Legacy Audio's dealers was sponsoring a demo of their line at a hotel. I got to chat with him for a while before the main part of the event started. Once it did, it was cool being able to not only get a demo, but have the person who actually designed the speakers explain the differences and give you the background on each speaker. He shared some things about his design principles, speaker sensitivity, speaker construction, etc. A cool demo he did was lining up four different model speakers and moving the speaker cables from one to the other, basically showing you the effects of increased sensitivity and more air-moving capability as you moved up in their line. I also paid a visit to their factory in Springfield IL about a decade ago when my wife and I were visiting some of her relatives outside of Chicago. Just showed up and to say "Hi" and was treated to a complete personal tour: met the staff, listened to some music in the demo room, checked out the testing/designing area (they even showed me some potential designs for the then poto-type of their Point One sub) and got to see where they built the speakers.

As for the Eidolons, they sounded impressive to me in a brief dealer demo. I wasn't able to listen for an extended period of time, but what I heard was interesting. They had a very live sound, an immediate sound. They do take some power though, as their sensitivity isn't all that high.

 

RE: Looking to go "full range" - got it!, posted on March 6, 2011 at 09:55:57
JerryS
Reviewer

Posts: 2045
Joined: February 24, 2001
 I have no idea what you might like or what would work well in your room. For the past few years, I have achieved excellent sound with smaller speakers and subwoofers. This allows each to be placed in their optimal positions since the best location for the main speakers is usually not the best location for even bass - in my room.

I am currently using YG Acoustics Kipod Main Modules and a pair of Gallo TR-3 subs in my 19 x 12 room and the sound is VERY satisfying.

Good luck with your search and happy listening.

Regards,
JerryS

 

In addition the Legacy Whisper is not truly full range, posted on March 6, 2011 at 10:23:47
Robert C. Lang
Audiophile

Posts: 3586
Joined: March 1, 2001
 Here is an excerpt taken from a post I made last summer after listening to the Legacy Whisper at the California Audio Show.


*****One demonstration disc I had on hand never that was unable to find a suitable home among the 4 systems I auditioned with it, was the Widor: Mass Op. 36, for choruses and organs. Most systems, at only moderate levels, were simply over matched, not just in the bass where conventional wisdom might expect special challenges, but also in the lower treble and midrange, too. In places the organ is prodigious from the lower treble down to the low 20 Hz. A big surprise for me on this disc was the inability of the large Whisper Legacy to really provide "grunt force" with the organ, and, in fact sounded anemic. But when I walked behind the speaker I immediately learned why. I had no idea the Whispers had dipole bass, that clearly have wonderful virtues, but reproduction of the lowest organ fundamentals not being one of them. *But* to his fullest credit the Legacy demonstrator made no excuses, didn't imply that I was some "organ freak" or "bass junkie" (which sales representatives may be so inclined to do to hide behind the conspicuous lack of low bass ability of gear they purvey), but instead readily acknowledged that these aspects of the lowest frequencies are not a strong suit of the Legacy speaker and that many are sold with the company's own subwoofers for that very reason.*****



Robert C. Lang

 

RE: Looking to go "full range", posted on March 6, 2011 at 10:44:56
JerryS
Reviewer

Posts: 2045
Joined: February 24, 2001
 "I want seamlessness with extension."

3-ways almost always have a crossover near middle-C which is 262 Hz. For me, this usually hurts seamlessness. Using a 2-way (preferably sealed) eliminates that crossover point. Adding a pair of good subs provides the extension.

Also, the power requirements of a 2-way are often less than a 3 (or more) way speaker.

 

RE: Looking to go "full range" - got it!, posted on March 6, 2011 at 11:12:14
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 Hey, Jerry. Great to see you posting here. Love your site, BTW.

In theory, I agree with you. A good monitor, an active crossover, and a pair of subs should really work a treat. Of course, this is something easier said than done.


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

Ignoring your budget for just a minuet.., posted on March 6, 2011 at 13:43:36
Craiger56
Audiophile

Posts: 5694
Location: San Jose CA
Joined: April 3, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 29, 2003
 The PTE's at RMAF left us with a lasting impression of true, effortless, full range sound and capable of unlimited levels without strain.

Now, back to your budget.

Have fun.

 

Polymer Audio Research Co., posted on March 6, 2011 at 16:27:26
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001




Hello Socrates7!

If I could ever afford to purchase speakers in the $20K to $30K ballpark you're speaking about this would be the very first speaker I'd want to go and listen to! As far as I can tell it's simply called the Polymer Audio Speaker. From their website ---{see link below}--- they state: Polymer Audio Technologies is a new company from the founders of DK Design Group. The scientists of Polymer Audio Technologies, under the vision and direction of Daniel Khesin, have created a loudspeaker product that has never been possible – until now. It is also, unquestionably, the very best loudspeaker in the world. Don’t believe us? Then read on…

I can tell you from what I've read on their site, the drivers used consist of the $430ea modified Supravox TG1 tweeter, completely hand made in France, it utilizes a titanium dome covered in a pure layer of solid gold. The $12,350ea diamond midrange cone in the Polymer Logic currently exists in only one commercially available loudspeaker system, the $250,000/pr Marten Design Coltrane Supreme and the $595ea hand-made vapor deposited titanium woofers were previously available in the highly used in the Magico Mini.

The Specs are:

Nominal impedance: 5 ohms (minimum impedance 4.1 ohms)
Woofer: Two 7 inch vapor deposited titanium
Midrange: One 2.5 inch diamond cone
Tweeter: One 1 inch gold coated titanium dome
Sensitivity: 91dB @ 1 watt (2.0V at 1 meter)
Minimum amplifier power: 12 WPC
Frequency response: 30Hz – 40kHz
System weight: 285 lbs each tower
Approximate shipping weight: 820 lbs for complete system
Height: 48.75” (including supplied supports)
Width: 13”
Depth: 15”
Price: $25,000/pr.

If you do nothing else click on the Value link on the right of the opening page. They do a direct comparison of the prices of the drivers used in many of the other VERY EXPENSIVE speakers in this price catagory, such as: $35K/pr Peak Consult Zoltran, $24K Joseph Audio Pearl, Wilson Audio $28K Watt/Puppy plus 3 other very famous models. This page is worth checking out just to see what drivers are used and what they cost in the other models vs the Polymer Audio Audio Speaker.

Granted the cost of drivers alone won't indicate how good a speaker will sound so I'd read the review by Jim Olson of Positive Feedback at the link below. Jim ends the review by stating;

"There is certainly no loudspeaker in my experience that can provide the type of resolution, purity, visceral presence, mirco and macro-dynamic authority, and liquidity all the while being completely relaxed and simply disappearing with 3D images floating in the room. This is goose bump city and absolutely jaw dropping territory. So is this the best over-all loudspeaker I have heard? I have to say that despite its dynamic limitation (i.e. ability to play at extremely loud, tenant eviction levels without compression), the over-all performance of this speaker is tops and the very best in my experience. Pop open a nice bottle of Chateau Margaux, sit back, and enjoy the world's best midrange performance.

At the beginning of this review I mentioned that ultimately this was an unfortunate undertaking because now I have no choice other than to figure out how to fork over $24,990 to keep these speakers. I am putting my money where my mouth is and buying the review pair. And there is no reviewers' discount; Polymer Logic operates on margins that are razor thin. However, it is impossible not to see the amazing bang for the buck this loudspeaker offers."

I'd read the entire review and if they sound like something that interests you, go give them a personal listening audition!

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue34/polymer_logic.htm




Tom Scata (thetubeguy1954)
===============================================================
--- SETriodes Group --- Central Florida Audio Society --- Space
Coast Audio Society --- Fullrange Drivers --- Front & Back Loaded Horns

Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

deep bass isn't their strong point, posted on March 6, 2011 at 18:05:15
Joe Murphy Jr
Audiophile

Posts: 4424
Joined: February 3, 2001
 The Whispers are designed "to take the room out of the equation". Obviously this wasn't meant to be, and shouldn't be, taken literally. But in the process, deep bass suffers unless you add (a) subwoofer(s). Even their designer, Bill Duddleson, talked about this when I spoke to him years ago. He explained that in the demo I attended in Orlando and even there the Whispers were augmented with a sub (though it was a Home Theater setup).

As I said below, the Focus is the better choice if you have a large room or if you prefer stronger bass energy.


 

RE: deep bass isn't their strong point, posted on March 6, 2011 at 19:03:52
Robert C. Lang
Audiophile

Posts: 3586
Joined: March 1, 2001
 My brief time with the Whispers was a very positive experience. It is an excellent sounding system. I figured out that deep bass isn't intended as their strong point when immediately following my audition I walked around to behind the speaker and saw the dipole bass configuration with so few (for full range dipole bass) bass drivers. And the Legacy representative confirmed that for a truly full range system one should mate them with a sub, preferably a specific Legacy model. I would love to hear that combo.

Robert C. Lang

 

How about considering a dark horse?, posted on March 6, 2011 at 22:00:24
Robert C. Lang
Audiophile

Posts: 3586
Joined: March 1, 2001
 You have received some great suggestions, with excellent diversity. Most have been geared to right around the price point that you specified, which is also good. When you narrow things down a bit you might want to at least consider one dark horse, something that you may never otherwise consider, something that could be significantly below your price point but on paper and what I have read might actually be a legitimate contender. One such speaker may be the Ohm Walsh 5 (or Walsh 4 depending on room size).

I have never heard it, only heard about it. One meaningful advantage that it may have over most of the other suggested speakers is that you will be able to listen to them in your home for up to several months before making a final decision. (I realize that you are a seasoned audiophile, but I would never commit to any speaker, especially a high end speaker without a lengthy in home audition, especially since you want to better the excellent speakers that you currently own).

FWIW, a few (speaker) generations ago the Walsh 5 received stellar reviews in "Stereophile" and/or "Absolute Sound" I think the price is $6500, which can make a lot of "high enders" look away without any consideration. So, no prestige there. But a lot of the price reduction can be attributed to it being sold direct from the manufacturer.

In any event, I have learned over the years that some of the best sounding gear I have heard and the some of the best value out there is stuff that fly beneath the radar. Since their advertising is limited you have to be on the look out for them.

P.S.

Regarding room size, I believe you have mentioned that your room was quite large. In your Inmate System description the room listed is more medium size (2200 cubic ft).

Robert C. Lang

 

deep bass has improved, posted on March 6, 2011 at 22:51:13
Joe Murphy Jr
Audiophile

Posts: 4424
Joined: February 3, 2001
 At least according to the site below (it's been 7 or more years since I last heard them) and it seems they now come with their own amps -- the XD version -- or not -- the HD version:

Oct 2009 article from dagogo
"Previously the Whisper had not the deep end of the more affordable Focus SE (shown with great effectiveness in the Ayon Audio room). That has changed, as Bill Dudleston has now upgraded the woofer drivers on the Whisper and it digs deeper, deep enough to remind me of the Helix’s bass capabilities. Now, in every respect, the Whisper is a fitting intermediate between the Focus SE and the Helix. Recording engineer Steve Hoffman has ordered a pair."

Who's this Steve Hoffman guy? Some new wet-behind-the-ears upstart?
:-)


Then there's Legacy Audio tooting their own horn about the Focus SE winning the 2011 CES Best of Show award:

"On January 6th, thousands converged upon Las Vegas to discover the latest electronics from the world's leading companies. Legacy Audio proudly displayed their Focus SE loudspeaker system and was awarded best of show. This marks a back to back win for Legacy- their Whisper XD was awarded CES Best of Show 2010."

 

RE: Ignoring your budget for just a minuet.., posted on March 7, 2011 at 03:29:14
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 To be fair they are active (something I approve of) so you get your power amps included in the price but the Phoenix seems a bit expensive for what it is ($360 worth of drivers in a pair) and the woofers are too far apart. For that money I would at least expect them to mill down the tweeter front plate to get the woofers closer.

On the other hand there are some really good alternatives for less money.
Not least the ATC SCM300A SL Pro. You get Class A power (ATC amps run in Class A up to 2/3 of rated output), two of the best 15" underhung woofers, the best mid-range for less than £22k ($37k) in a black box for soffit mounting (highly recommended) or £28k for a veneered box.

Probably the most accurate speaker around. Somebody measured them and they can produce 121dBSPL at an astonishing 0.3%THD.

 

RE: Polymer Audio Research Co., posted on March 7, 2011 at 06:24:31
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 Ok, that may well be the niftiest pair of speakers I've ever heard of. Unfortunately for me, they are probably too big for my room -- and might require me to sit too far back to enjoy them.

Still, very, very interesting! Thanks for the referral!


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

RE: Looking to go "full range" - got it!, posted on March 7, 2011 at 08:01:11
JerryS
Reviewer

Posts: 2045
Joined: February 24, 2001
 Thanks for your kind words about my site. Regarding matching a sub, it seems that sealed main speakers are better because there is less phase shift at the bottom of their frequency range. Also, it is usually possible to use a sealed speaker without a separate high-pass crossover because although the voice coil can become hot with increasing power, it is difficult to exceed the cone travel limits (Vmax) as the air spring inside the cabinet naturally limits over-excursion. This is not the case with ported speakers.

The ear is less sensitive to frequency and phase anomalies as the frequency decreases, which partially explains why blending a sub with main speakers in the 50-70 Hz range can be less obvious, intrusive and harmful than a crossover in the 200-500 Hz range which is common in 3-way speakers.

With ported speakers, one can usually plug the port (put a sock in it?) and achieve similar results.

JerryS

 

an "out the box" suggestion, posted on March 7, 2011 at 08:48:12
Joe Murphy Jr
Audiophile

Posts: 4424
Joined: February 3, 2001
 Keep what you have for now, but embark on a journey -- build your own speakers. There's so much information out there (books, online speaker building sites, software, etc) that you should be able to build your dream speakers for that $20k.

 

That's one of the problems with shows, posted on March 7, 2011 at 08:54:24
Craiger56
Audiophile

Posts: 5694
Location: San Jose CA
Joined: April 3, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 29, 2003
 Didn't get to hear the Phoenix, only the Statement and for us only the all MBL room at the LA show (06?) was as impressive.

I remember a ATC at RMAF with exposed framework in front of the woofers, but not memorable sound, wich means nothing of course.

Best,

 

RE: That's one of the problems with shows, posted on March 7, 2011 at 09:29:33
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 I agree that shows are not best suited for evaluating speakers. Probably ok for a rough pre-selection.

I also agree that ATCs are not particularly memorable.
On the other hand almost all memorable speakers I have ever heard were memorable because there was something wrong with them. All the most transparent speakers I've heard were not immediately impressive, not until one has the chance to sit down undisturbed and then realizes how much detail is present and how much distortion is absent.

At the prices we are at right here I would expect at least a weeks auditioning at home which I find necessary. This would also allow me to perform two of my favourite speaker test:
A recording of a very familiar female voice (wife, gf, mother, daughter) at life-like levels and how do the speakers sound when turned up a fair bit and I am in ANOTHER room.

 

RE: Looking to go "full range", posted on March 7, 2011 at 09:33:17
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 Well depending on your room and all that but I would look at several speakers all under $20k.

Usher Be 10 http://usheraudiousa.com/products/loudspeakers/dancer-series/be-10 - very under the radar for big floorstanders and sound better than the bigger name players I have heard over the years. Very natural on vocals too which is really nice.

Audio Note E (two way standmount needs to be placed in corners but will have bass in the league of bigger floorstanders like the Wilson Sasha and for less - it's in my top 5 speakers made - any model at any price if you value music over sex appeal and sonic feats. And they have many options at many price points from $7k to $125k. http://www.audionote.co.uk/products/speakers/an-e_01.shtml

Acoustic Zen Crescendo $14k http://www.acousticzen.com/crescendo.html sounded really very good should have enough bottom end to please - nice mids and open extended highs. They ran with nice tube amps to boot which to me is a must.

Trenner and Freidl RA Box is one helluva loudspeaker - I don't know how deep it goes but it goes deep and plays at incredible levels with the wow factor live thwack factor that few speakers possess. For instance none of the Wilson's, Revels, PSB, Paradigms, or B&Ws have it so it's high praise when a little known maker gets it. And it beats the big boys on Beethoven too - so open natural and clean sounding. But it's $25,000. http://www.trenner-friedl.com/index2.php?menu=ra&sprache=en

I am always so amazed when boring old rectangle boxes like the RA Box and AN E sound better than virtually all of the big tall slim multi-driver fancy tweeters and high tech woofer systems out there - and generally not just a little better but "other worldly" better.

Sony's flagship speakers you should also consider as a big floorstander and run about $20k. I don't have the model number but it was shown at CES 2010 by Ray Kimber who claimed it was the best $20k speaker he had heard. And I was very impressed - so don't judge Sony because of the name - they have more "resources" to throw at something than most anyone if they choose to actually do it and to me they were one of the best sounding speakers at CES 2010. It may be closer to $30k now though but I believe it is called the AR-1. To me it sounds a LOT better than the Revel Ultima or the Diamond B&Ws. Though I can say that about the Usher B-10 as well.

I also enjoyed the flagship from JM Labs Focal but it did have a noticeable treble ping which I suppose some will view as "accurate" while I view it as a treble ping. Still sounded good and might have been the Boulder gear. Still had some balls though.

Despite my previous comment - I did like the Wilson Sophia 2, Sasha, as well as Reference 3a's Grand Veena, Gershman Acoustics' Swan Diva, among many others.

Bottom line for the money you are sinking into this I would highly highly recommend you put $2000 aside and attend an audio show and keep an open mind and simply listen - without the eyes and the marketing. If it was not for an audio show I would not have heard several of the very best systems I have ever auditioned and from companies I barely heard of or never heard of. Silbatone Aporia Full Range, and Trenner and Freidl and while I heard of them Acapella isn't in my town and the High Violoncello II is pretty awesome even a not so great room. King Sound is also an ESL maker that has to be the budget king of the ESL panel world.

The fact is I like all of the speakers I mentioned above and not all of them sound all that much alike. And they're all good. So really it comes down to your ear and since it's your investment - the more you audition the less likely you will have regret that you missed out on the green grass over the fence. An Audio show puts all the manufacturers on an even playing field. The makers get the blue-prints of the room so they can't use the room as an excuse since speakers are "supposed" to be designed to work in many rooms not just an anechoic chamber.

And there are shows all across the US almost every other month. Dagogo's CAS show will be in San Francisco in July. CES is every January (easy to get in - just pretend you are a company and you will get a pass to get in for free), other magazines have shows and then there is RMAF, Expona and maybe Vacuum Tube Vally in Washington/Oregon or somewhere.

 

RE: Looking to go "full range", posted on March 7, 2011 at 09:47:23
RGA
Reviewer

Posts: 15177
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: August 8, 2001
 I agree with your assessment and that's what I heard from the big Wilsons - you could hear each driver rather than a cohesive whole. But judging by magazine reviews and what is rated Class A or editors choice cohesiveness and balance is ranked dead last on the things they find important. I rank those as the most important thing because for $70,000+ I need to believe there is a band in the room and not a box with a bunch of drivers and show off to your friends logo on the front to one up my buddies on how much I spend on loudspeakers.

The Trenner and Freidl Ra Box had the thwack factor of the Acapella High Violoncello II - the Ra Box is cohesive but big sounding like a big horn but I didn't detect horn foibles. It is ported but they can be plugged - so they are room friendly - near wall or corners or free standing. $25,000. The Audio Note E is another of the big sound from a two way with cohesiveness that is second to none from a two way.

Single drivers like the Teresonics could be included but they really don't have the bass at level or perhaps the depth or organic sensation - but a sub might work. And the bonus is the huge sensitivity and efficiency.

 

RE: That's one of the problems with shows, posted on March 7, 2011 at 13:20:10
Craiger56
Audiophile

Posts: 5694
Location: San Jose CA
Joined: April 3, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 29, 2003
 I don't know anymore about PTE than I learned at the show, but I feel you are dismissing them unfairly.

Have you heard them?

Having heard them I'm confident they would impress during your first test, and absolutely ace your second test.

I know how to listen to components, I know why people like Quads, and single driver's and why I don't.

Our local dealer carries Quads, EAR, SME, Airtight and Ayre and allows 'weekend' home demos.

 

RE: Or to drive your audiophile friends crazy, posted on March 7, 2011 at 14:05:15
BigguyinATL
Manufacturer

Posts: 3475
Joined: April 10, 2002
 and enjoy music the Diapason Ensemble by Shahinian Acoustics
"The hardest thing of all is to find a black cat in a dark room, especially if there is no cat" - Confucius

 

RE: That's one of the problems with shows, posted on March 7, 2011 at 15:59:35
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 I'm not dismissing them, I'm just saying that for the price they are not necessarily the first ones I'd consider. Also I like the ATC mid, applied properly there is no equal except may be the Volt VM752.

As it is I make do with my active 4ways based around classic Tannoy DualConcentrics and MC2Audio amps.

 

Negotiate a home trial, posted on March 7, 2011 at 17:32:22
Robert C. Lang
Audiophile

Posts: 3586
Joined: March 1, 2001
 I would *never* (I know never say never) purchase a speaker system, especially an expensive one, without some guarantee that I could return the speakers to the dealer or manufacturer for full refund after a reasonable (at *least* a week) home trial period. I just would not do it. I have always opted for several weeks.

Of course, For more than a week to be fair you would probably need to fully purchase the speakers. Also, you would need, again to be fair, to bear the shipping cost (which ain't cheap) for the return fare. This shows good faith effort/commitment on your part.

But for the cost of the speakers you are talking about the monetary risk would be minimal. Otherwise, it can be a virtual crap shoot to purchase an expensive speaker without actual experience in your system, in your room, with your music. Plus it can provide you a unique opportunity to make short term direct comparisons


I would think/hope that any dealer worth its salt would accept what I believe to be such a balanced arrangement.

The closest place I could listen to the speakers I currently own was about 900 miles away. I made a deal with the manufacturer to purchase the speakers with the clear understanding that if I did not want to keep the speakers for *any* reason I could notify him within 30 days and send them back for a full and complete refund. I offered to pay the return (only) shipping (not cheap). That way the "risk" was shared between both of us.

It worked out great!!





Robert C. Lang

 

Regarding matching a sub, it seems that sealed main speakers are better because ...., posted on March 7, 2011 at 22:16:04
Robert C. Lang
Audiophile

Posts: 3586
Joined: March 1, 2001
 Thanks for your explanation. The designer of my speakers, that employ mains and a two (stereo) sub configuration, had given me a similar explanation but your post gives sharper focus to his words. My external crossover allows for use as a highpass filter and/or a low pass filter but I have opted to go low pass only and allow the sealed mains to run full range (they are designed naturally fall off below 70 Hz. The blending is as seamless as I have heard. Of course, it helps that all components (mains, external crossover, and bass module are designed with each other in mind to work as a system.

Robert C. Lang

 

RE: Negotiate a home trial, posted on March 7, 2011 at 23:48:17
jazz1
Audiophile

Posts: 2891
Joined: October 30, 2000
 You're lucky that you are in the US, here they are very few 20000$
loudspeakers that you could try at home, I can only think of B&W and Kef
and I have to admit that in general you cannot go far wrong with these 2 which also have a good resale value which is not the case for lesser known brands.
During the last 20 years I've imported a few loudspeakers based on reviews in 50% of the cases it was a big mistake but also got some good ones but then the amount involved was relatively small and always got them wholesale as they was no local representation, thus I never really lost any money.
I had my present speakers designed by a clueup friend and did the assembly myself, doing it this way allowed me to have something to my specifications such as size, part quality, sensitivity etc.
Sure it took nearly a year to finalize the speakers but now I am in audio heaven.

 

You're Welcome! (nt), posted on March 8, 2011 at 09:13:39
thetubeguy1954
Audiophile

Posts: 6112
Location: Orlando, Fla
Joined: January 7, 2001
 a
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom)

Central Florida Audio Society -- SETriodes Group -- Space Coast Audio Society
Full-range/Wide-range Drivers --- Front & Back-Loaded Horns --- High Sensitivity Speakers


 

RE: That's one of the problems with shows, posted on March 8, 2011 at 10:17:51
Craiger56
Audiophile

Posts: 5694
Location: San Jose CA
Joined: April 3, 2002
Contributor
  Since: December 29, 2003
 If you don't like the way they look that's fine, but writing you like one speaker you've heard better than one you haven't is illogical.

 

The Pearl 1 , posted on March 8, 2011 at 18:19:59
badman
Reviewer

Posts: 8801
Location: Tustin, CA (Orange County)
Joined: March 10, 2001
 Were the speakers in probably the finest show-environment rig I've ever heard. Others had better spots- acapella's ion tweeter is very special... and Edgarhorn titan+seizmik bass is out of this world...

But the Pearls with Manley, Cardas, and some other goodies at HE2002 (IIRC) were probably the best overall show sound I've ever heard.





Bass is supposed to sound big. 6.5" is not a woofer size.


 

Open baffle/subwoofer, posted on March 8, 2011 at 22:16:46
Scott Woebcke
Audiophile

Posts: 1051
Joined: October 27, 1999
 Get a nice driver...a really nice set of drivers, cut a hole in some wood, plop the driver in and enjoy the music. The bigger the baffle, the better the bass.

Open baffle, single driver, no cross over. It's the best you can get if you do it right...Okay so the subwoofer crossed at the right frequency is cheating...You might not need a sub if the baffle is large enough.

 

Pearl, posted on March 9, 2011 at 06:50:17
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 I'm happy to hear you say that. I've heard the Pearl 2's, both at shows and at a dealer studio, and have been quite taken with them. They don't seem to get a lot of love or respect from the audio crowd, for some reason, however.


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

RE: Negotiate a home trial, posted on March 9, 2011 at 06:51:47
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 Home trials for speakers with a 200lb per cabinet weight seems a bit unlikely. I'll ask, but I've never heard of such a thing.


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

Thanks for the thoughtful response, posted on March 9, 2011 at 07:03:38
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 RGA, this was really nicely put together. Appreciate the effort and thoughtfulness.

I really do like to go to the audio shows, but I've only been to a couple so far. "Show conditions" aside, it's a fast and efficient way to see and hear a lot in a short period of time. There are lots of downsides, of course, but it's still better than just guessing based on reviews.

I have a couple of dealers locally that I'll make the rounds of to see what I can see and hear. Some of the big boys, like Revel, Wilson and Avalon, are easy to find. Others, like those that have been suggested from KEF, Vandersteen, Acapella, Trenner & Friedl, Usher, & Acoustic Zen are all much harder, but there's a variety of reasons for that. Still, it's a journey, right? ;-)

Anyway, thanks again.


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

RE: Negotiate a home trial, posted on March 9, 2011 at 07:05:12
jazz1
Audiophile

Posts: 2891
Joined: October 30, 2000
 The local B&W agent did it with some 802D to a friend of mine.
Within a week they got a sale, but then again B&W have distributors in all major centers.

 

RE: Looking to go "full range", posted on March 9, 2011 at 07:17:11
David Yost
Audiophile

Posts: 967
Location: Atlanta
Joined: May 12, 2006
 I would put my money into these:

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrplan&1304795403&/Genesis-200/201

 

RE: Negotiate a home trial, posted on March 9, 2011 at 13:10:09
Robert C. Lang
Audiophile

Posts: 3586
Joined: March 1, 2001
 Clearly bulk and weight factor into the feasibility of a home trial, but my speakers weigh in at over 500 pounds and it never occurred to me not to have a home trial. As I said above, you would probably have to spring for the cost of return shipping if you were not satisfied. That can be costly. But it would be expontentially more costly if you paid $20,000 for speakers that did work damn near perfectly in your room.

Also, I consider such ancillary costs, especially when considering the purchase of "best in class" that you are seeking, as a requisite part of the process. I remember when deciding on a speaker system I purchased a season ticket to the San Francisco Symphony just so I could have a live regular reference when I went to audition speakers. I also ramped up my attendence at jazz venues, too. Heck, even when I attended church I had an ulterior motive to listen more purposefully to the choir and pipe organ. It was all part of the process, part of the cost, part of the learning experience, part of the fun!!!

Robert C. Lang

 

"full range" begins in the lower bass and midrange, not with a sub., posted on March 9, 2011 at 17:19:13
Robert C. Lang
Audiophile

Posts: 3586
Joined: March 1, 2001
 *****You could always get a good subwoofer, many of which will blow away most full range speakers in the low bass******.


I have found that at a truly full range system is designed to be that way from the top down.

It takes far more than a good subwoofer to make for a speaker that is truly full range. I've been that route and have learned that "full range" begins in the lower bass and midrange.

Much of the music I listen to is "power" late Romantic/early 20th century classical music such as Mahler and Stravinsky and *huge* scale organ and choral music from Bach to Widor played at *speed* (important). This is the most demanding, with respect to system resources, especially with respect to the lower registers, of any genre I am familiar with, including rock.

It has been my experience that a smallish monitor+sub combo no matter how well endowed the sub may be cannot adequately handle this music at full force. This is because much of the shear force of this music is not confined to the sub range as many assume. On the contrary, much of the audible power is most heard in the range between about 100 Hz and, say, 500 Hz. This the Achilles heel of many speaker systems and is above where the typical sub works. The sub is working below the fray of where most speakers need the most help in demanding situations.

Moving from classical music to jazz music, the most authentic and most challenging recording (with respect to sound fidelity) of drums I have in my collection is the Hank Jones Trio "July 6th, Live at Birdland New York". This recording, played at realistic levels, presents a singular challenge never before experienced by my system by a drummer due in large part by the challenge to the mid-range. At times the rim shots, especially, are absolutely explosive and are of greatest challenge to midrange reproduction (and to the amp, too).

I have had the opportunity to play this recording, at speed, on several systems. Some form of mid-range compression with "July 6th, Live at Birdland New York" was the "norm". Except that the listener does not realize that is what has occurred because it does not sound necessarily "bad", just "normal". It may not be readily appararent that compression has occurred until the same disc is heard on a system that does not exhibit that sort of compression.

The paramount importance of the mid-range in reproducing the "power" aspects of recorded music, such as the pipe organ, for example, is too often given short shrift. Adding a subwoofer and crossing it over at 50hz, to a speaker that has a mid-range that cannot otherwise handle the power workload with minimal distortion, almost entirely misses the point as you have added reinforcement *beneath* the fray of what is often the greatest need; the mid-range.



Robert C. Lang

 

RE: "full range" begins in the lower bass and midrange, not with a sub., posted on March 9, 2011 at 18:08:07
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 "The paramount importance of the mid-range in reproducing the "power" aspects of recorded music, such as the pipe organ, for example, is too often given short shrift. Adding a subwoofer and crossing it over at 50hz, to a speaker that has a mid-range that cannot otherwise handle the power workload with minimal distortion, almost entirely misses the point as you have added reinforcement *beneath* the fray of what is often the greatest need; the mid-range."

My thoughts pretty much exactly. Thanks for elucidating.


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

I'm looking now myself, posted on March 12, 2011 at 10:32:51
Bill Musgrave
 I'm considering especially PMC EB1i, PMC IB2i, and AZ Crescendo, all of which are transmission line and produce exceptional bass. I should have the EB1i in house next week. PMCs get little notice over here but they're popular in Britain. The IB2i is an old-style stand-mount monitor that reaches to 25 Hz and has the exceptional PMC midrange driver. Worth a look.

 

Gallo Reference Strada, posted on March 13, 2011 at 10:00:36
mr_bill
Audiophile

Posts: 170
Joined: August 20, 2001
 Jerry,
I read your review of the Gallo Reference Strada and it seems that they are very very close to your YG Acoustics speakers?
Maybe they are worth a mention too with a sub?
Thanks,
Bill

 

RE: Gallo Reference Strada, posted on March 13, 2011 at 10:30:54
JerryS
Reviewer

Posts: 2045
Joined: February 24, 2001
 Hi Bill,
Maybe a key sentence in the review is, "The $17,000 Kipods pull more metallic sheen from the brass, and are cleaner and smoother in the upper midrange and treble, but the Strada's sound is quite true to the recording..."

Actually the difference is large enough that it would be more correct for your comment above to read "they are close to your YG Acoustics..." While the Strada are good speakers, The Kipods are really in another league completely.

I think the sub issue is covered in both the Strada and Kipod reviews. Those TR-3s are mighty good!

Happy listening.

Regards,
JerryS

 

RE: "Full range" speakers, posted on March 15, 2011 at 00:05:39
musicalchap
Audiophile

Posts: 177
Location: Texas
Joined: July 22, 2004
 I agree with the previous poster. It is wise to look at the whole picture. I liked the Omegas' midrange clarity but missed the top end and low end of my vandersteens and eventually I sold the Omegas and still have the Vandies. I did watch Last Tango in Paris through the omegas and it sounded like what I heard was really happening in the room so it just depends on what your listening tastes are that matters. It is fun just trying different speakers out anyway too!

 

A lot less...., posted on March 18, 2011 at 15:45:13
idiotec
Audiophile

Posts: 629
Location: California
Joined: December 4, 2007
 If you can find a local audition or at a show, make sure you check out Salk....

 

RE: A lot less...., posted on March 25, 2011 at 19:54:48
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 I wanted to like the Salk's more, but I haven't heard them sound particularly memorable at either opportunity I've had.


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

RE: Looking to go "full range", posted on April 1, 2011 at 10:43:21
Socrates7
Reviewer

Posts: 251
Location: DC Metro
Joined: February 28, 2010
 Do things change radically I we lift the price cap to $32k?


Scot Hull
Publisher, Part-Time Audiophile

 

Eggleston, posted on April 3, 2011 at 09:20:46
Bigby
Audiophile

Posts: 90
Location: Southern US
Joined: May 28, 2010
 Try Eggleston Andrea III. Beautiful full range speakers.

 

ATC SCM150 AT or SCM300 AT active speakers...., posted on April 3, 2011 at 21:34:54
darkmoebius
Audiophile

Posts: 18780
Location: Los Angeles, California
Joined: December 28, 2000
 True reference level speakers used in many of the top recording/mastering studios in the world. Each driver crossed over to and driven by it's own internal amplifier. So, no need to do the search for matching amps and it saves on a set of cables, too. If you want save significant money, buy their Pro versions of the same speakers.

Do some web searches about ATC's and what recording artists, mixers, and producers think of them.

SCM150ASL
Amplitude Linearity ±2dB :
60Hz - 17kHz
Frequency Response -6dB :
25Hz & 22kHz
Matched Response
±0.5dB
Dispersion :
±80° Coherent Horizontal
±10° Coherent Vertical
Max continuous SPL @1m :
117dB SPL
Crossover Frequency :
380Hz & 3.5kHz
Amplifier Output :
HF 50 Watts RMS
MF 100 Watts RMS
LF 200 Watts RMS



If you really want to spend money and swing for the fence, go for their largest speaker. BTW, soffit-mounting the ATCs will result in a 10Hz improvement in LF extension, from -6 dB at 30 Hz as a floor mount system to -6 dB at 20 Hz in soffit mount. Although, I'd bet your is probably too small for these.

SCM300 AT : 3-way active

Amplitude Linearity (±2dB) :
50Hz-12kHz
Cut-off Frequencies (-6dB, free-standing) :
20Kh z
Horizontal Dispersion :
±80°, Coherent
Vertical Dispersion :
±10°, Coherent
Max. Continuous SPL (1 metre) :
121dB
Crossover Frequencies :
380Hz, 3.5kHz
Amplifier Output :
Bass 275+275W, Mid 200W, High 100W





 

RE: B&Ws should be a contender., posted on May 14, 2011 at 02:18:03
aaudioman@hotmail.com
Audiophile

Posts: 43
Location: New England -USA
Joined: February 23, 2008
 The B&W 802 are probably B&Ws most balanced big speaker.

The best speakers Bar None is the Salk Soundscape 12 or even 10 it will beat a wilson sasha or B&W as a total package and for sure in tunefull Bass It uses the Raal Amorphous Ribbon Tweeter ,the Superb Accuton ceramic midrange, and a custom Bass driver with a special dual rear passiver radiator system unlike any in the Market and will do 20hz-60khz not to shabby for a speaker under $15k and the wood finishes are second to none.

 

Vandersteen 5As. $17K/pair. (NT), posted on May 14, 2011 at 13:52:27
jeffreybehr
Audiophile

Posts: 5790
Location: Phoenix, Arizona
Joined: December 10, 2004
Contributor
  Since: December 13, 2004
 .

 

RE: Vandersteen 5As. $17K/pair. (NT), posted on May 14, 2011 at 21:10:42
the old school
Audiophile

Posts: 764
Location: marin county
Joined: April 9, 2011
 At the 2010 CAS, my two favorite rooms were the Audio Note and the Teresonic. The Teresonic had plenty of deep bass, plus it's got to be the best-looking speaker I ever saw. Driven by a 2 1/2 watt SET amp!!! The Audio Note also goes quite low, but doesn't look like much (not really important to me). I'm a huge analogue fan, and the Audio Note room only had digital, so I may be underrating their sound. I asked 5 women at the show what their favorite room was, and 4 replied: the Audio Note room! Once, when I was in the AN room, a wife , after hearing her big band jazz CD played, turned to her husband, and said: "honey, you HAVE to buy those speakers"!

 

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