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PASS J2 Vs Yamamoto AO8-S

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Posted on November 1, 2009 at 11:07:31
chopper87@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 942
Joined: September 2, 2001
 I gave up on solid state amplification many years ago. Let's see, it was about 1981 when I brought home an UGLY pair of Leak TL-25 Plus EL34 mono block 25 watt amplifiers to fiddle with. They were a trade in at an audio salon that I was managing at the time. I unhooked my Naim NAP 250 from my Chartwell LS3\5a's and (after manufacturing proper plugs) plugged in the Leaks. Never looked back, even though I still think that the bigger/better naim amps and some of the Levinson amps (23.5 and 27.5) are quite good at what they do best.
Years later I found an even more intriguing match, high efficiency speakers mated with singe ended tube amplification. My favorite flavor being 45 based set amplifiers. Of that genre, I found the Yamamoto AO8-S handily outperformed all others that I have tried (not saying that there is not better, I just have not heard it yet). My second favorites are actually various vintage 6BQ5 amplifiers, remarkable!
I never even considered solid state amps again until the Pass First Watt stuff hit the ground. I was fortunte to evaluate the F1 and F3 units in my own listening environment. In my opinion, not even close. The yamamoto was still in a different league. So, I really had no interest in the F4 or F5 because I felt them likely to be a slight variation on the previous themes.
The opportunity arose for me to play with the new PASS J2 amplifier for a couple of weeks at home. I packed it up and sent it back yesterday. No, I was not upset having to part with the J2. I did not feel the need to scramble to find the funds to keep this amplifier.
BUT, if I had owned the J2 and was evaluating the Yamamoto, I would feel the same way and returned the AO8-S. I found these two amplifiers to be sonically interchangable for my needs. Of course we are comparing a 2 watt amplifier with a 25 watt unit. But since I only need/use the "First Watt" or so with my high efficiency speakers, I did not give a hoot about the added power in the J2. What did matter was the J2's ability to bring the "Lit From Within" magical quality that my Yamamoto with EML solid plate 45's always did better than every other amplifier.
These two amplifiers just sound so much alike. The AO8-S actually offers a bit more dynamics within it's limited power band and certain aspects of vocals may be a tad bit more fleshed out with the tube amp, maybe.
This is the first time sinse I purchased the Yamamoto that I would have been perfectly comfortable sending it back and keeping the J2.
If I were starting over and could choose between these two amplifiers, then it would come down to price, reliability, serviceability and obviously power requirement which translates to flexibility.

The Yammy still costs less, even with a pair of EML's (but it's close). Tubes are going to ware out and need replacement. That's around $500.00 for a pair of EML's! I have no idea where I would have my Yammy serviced and the manufacturer does not supply a schematic. Now, two Vs 25 watts? I currently do not need more than two watts, but that dramatic difference in power flexibility WILL come in hany at some point. Right now I must bi-amp. A seperate more powerful amplifier to drive either my 12" Tone Tubby Alnico Hemp Cones, or my vintage (brand new Great Planes 16 Ohm cones) Altec 416 B's, and the two watt Yamamoto to drive my eight inch full/wide range drivers and sometimes tweeters. The J2 would give me the option of driving the whole works from one sonically contiguous amplifier! Or, Or I could experiment with something like a vintage pair of 15" Tannoy coaxials or Altec Model 19's etc.... while still retaining almost all of the magic derived from the little 45 SET amplifier. Get the point?

Lance A.

 

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RE: PASS J2 Vs Yamamoto AO8-S, posted on November 1, 2009 at 18:11:47
Eric B
Audiophile

Posts: 312
Joined: October 11, 2001
 Hi Lance,

How does the F3 and J2 compare to each other. It sounds like you liked the J2 better than the F3. It sounds like Nelson is going in the right direction and getting closer to the SET sound.

 

RE: PASS J2 Vs Yamamoto AO8-S, posted on November 2, 2009 at 06:20:54
chopper87@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 942
Joined: September 2, 2001
 ""Hi Lance,

How does the F3 and J2 compare to each other. It sounds like you liked the J2 better than the F3. It sounds like Nelson is going in the right direction and getting closer to the SET sound.""

 

RE: PASS J2 Vs Yamamoto AO8-S, posted on November 2, 2009 at 06:43:12
chopper87@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 942
Joined: September 2, 2001
 Eric,

Eric,

To be honest, the F3 did not come close to lighting my reproduced musical fire, so, I did not really commit it's sonic specifics to my long term memory. Hey, I have no idea what Nelson Pass's objectives are when amplifier designing. But, if it's to make a 25 watt solid state amplifier that sounds a lot like a very good 45 tube based set amplifier equipped with a pair of EML's (The EML tubes are at least half of the sonic equation in my opinion), then he has come pretty darn close.

Lance



""Hi Lance,

How does the F3 and J2 compare to each other. It sounds like you liked the J2 better than the F3. It sounds like Nelson is going in the right direction and getting closer to the SET sound.""

 

RE: PASS J2 Vs Yamamoto AO8-S, posted on November 5, 2009 at 08:57:55
90493m
Audiophile

Posts: 69
Joined: August 1, 2002
 thanks Lance!
I have been extremely curious over the the questions you just answered.
I have Tannoy Westminsters and use a Korneff 45 (which i love) but need more power on the lower bass. Have wondered about the J2 as a good alternative.
Nice job

 

RE: PASS J2 Vs Yamamoto AO8-S, posted on November 7, 2009 at 11:49:15
chopper87@aol.com


 
I'm into the high efficiency Open Baffle thing myself right now, but Tannoy Westminsters! What a great speaker system. The J2 should definately flesh them out much more dynamically while retaining what you like about your 45 set amplifier.

Lance

 

RE: PASS J2 Vs Yamamoto AO8-S, posted on November 15, 2009 at 08:25:34
monch
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Joined: August 9, 2005
 Hi, Lance.

Very interesting to read your take on the J2.

Is it too soon to ask if you've formed any solid impressions of the Altecs vs. the Tone Tubbys in your OB set-up?

TIA,
Mark

 

Two Different OB systems, same amplification., posted on November 16, 2009 at 19:47:58
chopper87@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 942
Joined: September 2, 2001
 The 16 Ohm Altec 416-B's are on the bottom of Baltic Birch 3/4" baffles that are 21" wide by 49" tall. The Altecs are passsed at 212 HZ with a single toroidal 12 MH inductor. These baffles are also fitted with Supravox 215-2000 EXC's (non OB type) unfiltered. And a pair of RAAL 140-15D tweeters crossed at either 9 or 10K with a single capacitor.

The 16 Ohm Hemp Cone Alnico Tone Tubby's are fitted into the bottom of a 24" wide by 40" tall baffle. These TT's are crossed at 212 HZ using the same 12 MH inductors. Above is a Lowther PM2MKII Ticonal, unfiltered. No tweeters up top yet. However, I am contemplating filtering the Lowthers between 8-10K and adding the RAAL's or a pair of top O the line Fostex tweeters on top.

So you can see, it's a lot more complex than simply stating a definative comparative preference for either woofer. I will say, however, that the Altecs go deedper and seem fuller while the Tone Tubby's appear a bit leaner, faster and with more detail.

And these are just two of my current favorite OB's (and drivers) kulled down from three years and many very good projects and drivers.

Lance

 

RE: PASS J2 Vs Yamamoto AO8-S, posted on November 17, 2009 at 08:38:42
Phil Townsend
Audiophile

Posts: 72
Location: Santa Fe, NM
Joined: December 22, 2003
 My 45 vs the J2... My very lovely 45 was no match for the First Watt J2 as well. The J2 delivered in spades what the 45 did well but then push forward from there. Very fine bass control, a 45 like midrange and very smooth, clean clear uppers. No Noise at all!
The question is now what the hell am I going to do with my beloved 45?

That darn J2 solid state amp has sucked me in.

Phil
Santa Fe

 

RE: Two Different OB systems, same amplification., posted on November 18, 2009 at 05:10:01
monch
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Joined: August 9, 2005
 I recall reading somewhere that Jon Ver Halen said he found the TTs were good for about 60 Hz in his open baffle set-up. By your characterization, I guess the Altecs are more extended than that. But, as you point out, there are more factors to take into consideration. Integration with the main driver is probably more important than extension, to name but one. Thanks for taking the time to share your first impressions. Look forward to reading more installments.

 

RE: PASS J2 Vs Yamamoto AO8-S, posted on November 20, 2009 at 09:53:56
chopper87@al.com


 
Phil,

I am very happy for you because I am NOT a tube amplifier fanatic or fan of 45 set's in particular just because I like tubes. On the contrary, if I could find a solid state amplifier that OUTPERFORMED my Yamamoto AO8-S, then I would sell my Yammy and find a way to buy the solid state amplifier. After all, I have no affinity for equippment which uses tubes that slowly degrade over time and eventually (sometimes pretty comparatively quickly) need expesive re-tubing just to keep going. I feel the same way about turn tables and cartriges. If didgital stored on my hard drive and played back through a DA converter sounded just as good as the Turntable, then I would NO LONGER have a cumbersome turntable system.
However, unlike with your J2/45 set amplifier experience, the J2 DID NOT out perform my Yamamoto. It was close enough that I probably would not have made much of a fuss if someone took my Yammy and left me the J2. In my setup, the AO8-S still had a bit of a sonic advantage. But, it was close enough (for the first time) that I could probably live with either amplifier and would no longer need to stress over degrading tubes and $500.00 tube replacements.

But, what is the important take away about our differeng experiences with the J2 compared with two different 45 set's? Our 45 amplifiers likely sound nothing alike. The J2 clearly bested your 45 set while it nearly held it's own when compared with mine.

Keep in mind that the Yamamoto AO8-S is the BEST sounding amplifier that I have ever used. It emberrased and replaced another far more expensive and well known 45 set amplifier in my system. Nothing has come close to it until the J2! And I could live with either amplifier. There are a few sonic improvements that I would like to hear incorporated, but my next amplifier purchase may well be a First Watt thingie (first solid state main amp purchase since 1980).

 

RE: PASS J2 Vs Yamamoto AO8-S, posted on November 20, 2009 at 21:23:01
ddriveman
Audiophile

Posts: 212
Joined: March 22, 2003
 Lance and Phil,

Thanks for posting your impressions and opinions about the First Watt J2 versus the Yamamoto A08s and Phil's 45 SET amp (may I know what make/model or if DIY what is the tube compliment & OPTs). I have been seriously considering getting into the 45 SET camp for something. So, I have a few questions for both of you, if you can help out:

Lance, may I know what was the 45 amp that you had before the Yamamoto A08s which you consider to be the BEST amp you have heard.


Phil, was there any areas in whihc you feel your 45 amp was better than the J2, in other words, any areas of weakness of the J2 compared to 45 SET amps?

How do both of you rank the J2 versus the Korneff and Fi 45 SET amps?

Some background: I have had experienced with various 300B and 2A3 SET amps and wanted to go into the low power single plate Triodes. I have a 71A SET amp that sounds nice but with only 1W output, its a bit limited in the range of speakers it can drive. Likewsie the 2W for a general 45 amp has been holding me back somewhat(although I live with the 71A amp for my 5" D5nf Feastrex but it can clip driving my bigger (9" D9e Feastrex). I am now using a 3W amp using the rare Pedersen U4AB tube (3W is what I found to be about the miniumum power of what I needin my larger system) but what has really got me intrigued is the J2. From your postisng above, it looks like the J2 can really perform right up there with the best of the 45 SET amps and importantly with more power which imporves its flexibility with a wider range of speaker. SO the big question is whether I plunge in for the Yamamoto A08s, Wavelength Gemini, Korneff, Fi or the First Watt J2.

Albert

 

RE: PASS J2 Vs Yamamoto AO8-S, posted on November 21, 2009 at 10:33:46
chopper87@aol.com
Audiophile

Posts: 942
Joined: September 2, 2001
 Albert,

First, If you would like me to discuss specifially which other (Big) brand name 45 based set amplifiers that my AO8-S trounced, then you will have to use my personal email. I have not listened to any of their latest amplifiers. So, I would rather not potentially poison the waters for a brand when my findings may no longer be relevant. You know, kinda like my reiterating how awful the First Watt F1 and F3 sounded next to my Yamamoto AO8-S without qualifying my Extremely positive comparative impressions of Nelson's latest J2 amplifier.

Albert, you kind of already asked and answered your own question concerning wheather you should invest in another amplifier with less than three watts. You stated that three watts is barely adaquate for your 9" full range drivers (Feastrex's). If I were you then I would already have a J2 on it's way to my home.

However, funny thing is, I expected the J2 (with it's 25 watts) to dramatically improve the dynamics of my Supravox 215-2000 EXC/RAAL 140-15D's OB as well as my Lowther PM2MKII/Fostex T90A-EX's OB.(All driven by the 2 watt Yammy) Woofers in each OB's are driven by seperate tube amps.

In my 13'.6" wide by 20' long by 8'.6" high room, the AO8-S may have actually been a bit more dynamic than the J2. And I listen pretty damned load with absolutely NO filtering on either full range driver. I have little doubt that a larger room would display the J2's greater power and dynamic capabilities.

Lance






 

RE: PASS J2 Vs Yamamoto AO8-S, posted on November 21, 2009 at 23:33:32
sed
Audiophile

Posts: 28
Joined: February 24, 2009
 Does this amps 25 watts compare to a tube/set amp 25 watts? I have a 845 16watts which is plenty but an 300b is border line. I'd really like to try this or the F5 but I can't get a good read from anyone on how the power really acts on a 92db speaker load.

 

RE: PASS J2 Vs Yamamoto AO8-S, posted on December 2, 2009 at 03:00:57
Bob Mc
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Joined: August 4, 2001
 I've decided to take the J2 plunge, thanks (or curses) in large part to the discussion here (along with Srajan's articles and the DIY audio thread). Mark @ Reno has a generous offer to demo the amp for 30 days with only re-stocking fee and return shipping. I have been debating my sound preferences. I have Warren Gregoire's Ikonoklast speakers (95-98db sensitive) which I love and have allowed me to try some SET amps. I mostly switch between Korneff 45 SE and SunAudio 300B PP. I also have a WECO 91A that Gordon McGarvey built. The Korneff and Suns are stunning devices. The WECO is an amazing amp for its price with a lot of WOW to the sound - great detail and dynamics, but too sharp edged and forward ultimately. (I'll ask about possible changes I can make to WECO in another post.)

I really like the purity of the mid-range on the Korneff, the body of the Sun, and get something of that balance with the WECO 300B SET but it lacks the tonal and timbral nuance (and the more relaxed presentation) that the Sun and Korneff have. I'm hoping the J2 extends the 45's mid-range purity across a wider frequency range and gives more body to overall presentation. The Suns add more body by increasing distortion/harmonics, which only lately I've wondered if I can get without so much distortion. It seems from discussions that this isn't an unreasonable hope for the J2.

Thanks to all here for your informative discussions. You've helped this fool and his money be parted from one another on several occasions. I'll let you know my thoughts after I get a chance to listen.

Bob

 

RE: Two Different OB systems, same amplification., posted on December 4, 2009 at 10:26:24
monch
Audiophile

Posts: 11
Joined: August 9, 2005
 Given your experience, how important do you find the Qts rating of a driver to be?

Conventional wisdom suggests that one should get a high-Q driver for use in open baffles. The Altec spec sheet rates the 416 at .21, which is very much on the low side. Do you find this a problem or have you found a good fix?

I can't find a Q rating for the Tone Tubby, but I'm inclined to favor the Altec driver anyway for its greater extension.

Thanks,
Mark

 

RE: PASS J2 Vs Yamamoto AO8-S, posted on December 8, 2009 at 23:00:29
BlkNotes
Audiophile

Posts: 81
Joined: March 24, 2007
Hello Lance;

What value and type of capacitor are you using to cross over the RAAL 140-12D to the supravox 215-2000?

Are the bass, mid-range and tweeters spaced equally on the baffle ( i.e. at 16.3" intervals)?

Was there a reason you selected the RAAl tweeter vs. others?

Cheers;
BN

 

RE: PASS J2 Vs Yamamoto AO8-S, posted on December 26, 2009 at 07:15:42
Bob Mc
Audiophile

Posts: 194
Joined: August 4, 2001
 First, let me put in a shameless plug for Mark at Reno Audio. I have no association with him other than buying the J2 from him with his generous demo offer. It's my first dealing with him and he was tremendously helpful, communicative, understanding and professional in every way. (I hope I'm not violating any group protocols by saying this.)

I mostly compared the J2 to Jeff Korneff 45SE, hoping that it would bring more body overall to the musical presentation and bring more lower end at the same time maintaining the tone and musicality of the 45. I have to say that the J2 is the best solid state amp that I've heard in my recent system. It does have some of the tonal warmth of the 45SE and Sun 300B and it has better bass extension than the 45SE. I however thought that in my system, which is fairly dry (Monbrison pre, Sony 777 cd player, MHDT Havana DAC, Ikonoklast speakers), and for my musical tastes (classical chamber and solo instrumental music) the J2 emphasized instrumental attack more than harmonics and timbre. The upper region was a touch thin. Solo violin (Julia Fischer's Bach Partitas & Sonatas) was too screechy (a combination of thinness, attack-oriented presentation, and high level of detail). The bottom end was very solid and commanding. (I listened to Vanska/Minnesota Orchestra's performance of Beethoven's 7th and thought the J2 did a great job of capturing the power and inner details. I hardly ever listen to orchestral music but the J2 is really good at large scale music.) The mids ultimately lacked the tonal richness and timbral palpability of the 45SE and 300B. As I mentioned before, there was tremendous detail to the J2. It wasn't clinical but it did have a hyper-real quality to it. The musical presentation is fast and lively - there were times I felt like the music was coming so fast I couldn't keep up. Staging and scale of various ensembles (from solo to orchestra) were well represented.
Like others have said, the J2 seems to be moving in a direction that's congenial to tube lovers. For me, however, I'm still too imprinted on the Korneff 45SE and Sun Audio 300B to shift to the J2. I just wish the Ikonoklasts were a bit more sensitive because then the Korneff would be the perfect all-around amp for me. As it is, I sometimes need more power so I'll continue to switch in the Sun and search for other alternatives. The Korneff, as others have repeatedly said, is a wonder.

Bob

 

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