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Native DSD playback and Memory

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Posted on August 7, 2012 at 07:24:45
Mercman
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Michael Lavorgna just posted his review of the Mytek DAC at AudioStream.

He noted that for native DSD playback, he had to increase his memory from 4GB to 12GB in his Mac for successful playback of large files. Using Audirvana Plus or Pure Music for DSD native playback from memory, this should be considered. I believe Mytek suggests at least 8GB.

Perhaps Tony and Ted can add their experiences.

 

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Verifies, posted on August 7, 2012 at 08:52:37
fmak
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what I said about DSD, SACDs and the ESS9018 long ago.

Note:(From a purely practical perspective we have to ask—how many DSD titles are out there? And the answer in wallet-terms is a lot (see this post for a list of sources as well as some other DSD-ready DACs))

For those who puh puh SACDs for not having sufficient software.

 

RE: Verifies, posted on August 7, 2012 at 08:56:33
Mercman
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I have hundreds of ripped DSD titles at this point, but no DAC to play them back natively. I hope to be testing DACs with native DSD capability soon.

 

RE: Native DSD playback and Memory, posted on August 7, 2012 at 09:43:58
Tony Lauck
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Thanks for the link.


The review is consistent with my experience, at least where there is overlap. (I don't have a Firewire adapter yet, so I haven't tried that.) With regard to the required break-in time, I would say that the unit kept getting better for at least two months, and that was with it powered on 24/7, and playing music at least four hours every day. I run a Windows 7 64 bit system. Playback with a juli@ on this system was unsatisfactory with the initial 4 GB of RAM, with a general feeling of edgy sound coupled with the occasional obvious glitch in playback. It did not sound "right" until the RAM was upgraded to 12 GB, after which it sounded better than my previous WXP 32 bit system with 1 GB of RAM. Since this memory upgrade happened six months prior to getting the Mytek, I have not tried going back to a "mere" 4 GB of RAM, but I suspect there would be similar problems when using the Mytek. I have the "preamp" version of the Mytek and I have the analog outputs of the juli@ wired into the analog input of the Mytek, so I can monitor the output of my cassette deck when digitizing tapes.

The Mytek USB interface requires a special driver on Windows systems. This driver barely works with cPlay, because cPlay does not correctly implement the ASIO interface. In addition, cPlay doesn't support DSD, so this software has become obsolete and its icon no longer gets any space on my desktop. Instead, I have been using HQPlayer, which has no problem playing PCM and DSD files via the Mytek. I have found with this player that the best sound on PCM recordings is to use HQPlayer to upsample to DSD128 and send that to the Mytek. I suspect this is because I found some filters in HQPlayer's large inventory that work better with my system. Although the Mytek won't play 352.8 and 384 kHz PCM, files at these sampling rates can be played by upsampling to DSD64 or DSD128. Upsampling to DSD128 sounds smoother than upsampling to DSD64.

I have a number of DSD downloads from Blue Coast Records and Channel Classics. These have excellent sound when I use HQPlayer to send these directly to the Mytek in their DSD64 format. It was also possible to get Foobar2000 to play DSD directly, but there were glitches such as audible clicks when starting and stopping DSD tracks, so I abandoned use of foobar2000 for this purpose.

HQPlayer has a good convolution engine that I have been using for playing PCM files. My small listening room has three room modes and by measuring these I devised minimum phase equalization that removes these peaks, giving me flat response at my listening position. This works when playing PCM at all rates and doesn't add much CPU load with my first generation core i5 processor. Unfortunately, to get digital room correction when playing a DSD file it is necessary to convert to PCM. HQPlayer can be configured to do this, so it is possible to play DSD files by converting them to 176.4 PCM, applying room EQ, and then sending DSD128 to the Mytek. One can also listen to this conversion process with the room EQ disabled, and thereby hear the audible degradation when downsampling the DSD. At present, therefore, I have a tradeoff to make when playing DSD files. I can play them direct without any room EQ or I can downsample to PCM and apply room correction. Which way sounds better depends on the individual recording. In the case of the Channel Classic chamber music recordings I have found that the direct DSD method gives the best results because these recordings don't have a huge sound stage. For the Channel Classic orchestral recordings, such as the excellent newly released Mahler 1, there is a huge expansion of sound-stage when the room EQ is used, with the walls just behind my monitors disappearing. There is a chance that the next version of HQplayer will include digital room correction at 2.8 MHz and if this will work (depends on CPU speed) this will probably remove this quandary.

This setup has a few interesting features that don't directly add to musical enjoyment, but which do provide useful diagnostic features when trying to fine tune a computer audio system. HQPlayer does PCM upsampling at a high level and when playing very loud PCM recordings there is the possibility of digital clipping. The user interface keeps a counter of the number of times this has happened during a playback session. In the event this counter increments one can then choose to apply digital volume reduction with the player's volume control. The Mytek USB driver has counters of interface errors. These enable you to tell if the computer is failing to service the DAC in time. If one hears a glitch in playback this is sometimes useful to examine, i.e. one can tell if the glitch was due to a system problem or just a bad recording.



There are a lot of options with the Mytek DAC that can be set from the front panel. It took me about an hour to sort through how the menu system works, but this was not easy without applying the RTFM remedy. I run the Mytek direct to my powered Focal speakers, so I use the built in volume control. I have the DSD filter configured to the 70 kHz bandwidth as any high frequency crud from DSD doesn't seem to bother my Focals. I have the PCM filter set to the slow setting, which works well when playing hi-res PCM directly. I use HQplayer to upsample 44.1 material to 176.4 or DSD128, so I haven't done any critical listening of filter settings at this sample rate.

Since I got the Mytek I have doubled my time spent listening to music as nearly all my recordings sound wonderfully musical. I also use this setup to do mastering of new recordings and remastering of old analog recordings, and this setup is very revealing of any defects in recordings. What is almost magical is the ability to reveal the defects in a recording while still producing musically enjoyable sound. About the only thing I don't like about the Mytek is that it makes a loud noise when switching in/out of DSD128 mode. This can be a bit scarey if the analog gain in one's preamp is cranked up loud. Starting and stopping in PCM mode is completely silent and there are only quiet noises when starting and stopping in DSD64 mode. I am told that there were similar noises in earlier firmware when starting and stopping in DSD64 mode and that the remaining problems with DSD128 will be removed with a future release of firmware.



Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

You , posted on August 7, 2012 at 10:11:15
fmak
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should have persisted with your SACD players and not gone to 44.1 k, SLOWLY going up to 192 k over years.

 

RE: You , posted on August 7, 2012 at 10:14:27
Mercman
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Well things are going to be on a very fast pace now.

 

RE: Native DSD playback and Memory, posted on August 7, 2012 at 12:40:10
play-mate
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Dear Tony Lauck,

-thanks for your (always) great contributions to this forum.

Just a little remark from me regarding cPlay.

cics told me once that cPlay actually can playback at 352.8 and 384 kHz samplerate. The only limitation is the ASIO protocol driver.

If the ASIO software supports higher rates, so can cPlay !
One merely change the configurationfile for this.

I would love to experience cPlay at 384kHz !


kind regards
Hysolid // Mytek Brooklyn // Spectron Musician III // Analysis Audio Omega

 

This excerpt from Mytek is also interesting, posted on August 7, 2012 at 12:59:22
fmak
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Both FW and USB serve as asynchronous data pipeline, we tried NOT to have differences, even if FW is actually a better, more efficient interface that was designed for streaming while USB is kinda forced to do this.

Also USB on a typical computer has to service the DAC but also mouse, keyboard, maybe harddisk and other stuff all on the same bus requesting interrupts.

As far as why did we include both USB and Firewire, when I was designing the DAC I knew customers like choices (a given in any business) and this way we were appealing to everybody without forcing them to decide prior to buying. If someone wants FW they have it, same for USB. In addition that FW solution has an excellent on chip JET clock PLL which we use for ALL digital inputs (Weiss advertises it with their FW DACs). Having both is also redundant and covers more systems.

 

RE: This excerpt from Mytek is also interesting, posted on August 7, 2012 at 13:26:16
Mercman
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From Michael's review:

"In my setup with a MacBook Pro acting as front end music controller being served music from a NAS, the Firewire connection sounded better than USB with the Mytek DAC."

Be it good or bad, I'm not seeing much offered in firewire in many of the high end dacs. It seems that USB has become very popular with manufacturers.

 

Sacd playback in cplay, posted on August 7, 2012 at 13:33:20
theob
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I have about 500 sacd's the hybrids of which are ripped by EAC. Just recently I engaged another audiophile who has the hw capability to convert about 80 of these sacds to dsd files. Using Korg I was able to convert these to 24/176 pcm files which can be played on cplay. I also d/led a free file from Mytek (?) at 24/352 which cplay will play but I believe will downsample to something lower in resolution.

 

It seems that USB has become very popular with, posted on August 7, 2012 at 14:26:51
fmak
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Only because some of you guys go gaga about it.

There ARE no lack of motherboards from Gigabyte and Asus with Firewire. They don't appaear in run of the mill PCs simply because they are $35 or so more expensive.

The propaganda often posted here that they don't exists any more, or that Apple 'are dropping them' has no doubt hepled to popularise USB audio devices.

 

RE: It seems that USB has become very popular with, posted on August 7, 2012 at 15:13:07
Tony Lauck
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When it comes time for me to update the firmware on my Mytek I will have to get a Firewire adapter for about $35 and plug it into the PCI-E slot in my computer. At that point I will try the Firewire connection to the Mytek and see if it sounds better. At present, however, I am told that direct DSD operation only works over the USB interface. I would rather not have both connections plugged in at the same time, as it is trolling for EMI/RFI.



Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: This excerpt from Mytek is also interesting, posted on August 7, 2012 at 15:28:48
John Swenson
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This is interesting, they have to use a PLL on an asynchronous interface? That seems like it's defeating the purpose of an async interface.

John S.

 

RE: This excerpt from Mytek is also interesting, posted on August 7, 2012 at 17:36:18
Tony Lauck
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The PLL is used on the SPDIF interface. It is also used on the USB 1.1 interface. It is not used when the DAC is clocked internally, as it is with the USB 2.0 interface and when it is used with AES or SPDIF with the transport slaved to the word clock that the Mytek outputs.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Sacd playback in cplay, posted on August 7, 2012 at 22:53:39
fmak
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Not possible, DSD to PCM perhaps.

 

RE: Native DSD playback and Memory, posted on August 8, 2012 at 10:43:02
ted_b
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Steve,
I have 8 GB on my mid-2009 Mac Mini, and it plays DSD flawlessly. And I concur 100% with Tony on all his main points. I won't reiterate cuz I said all of this in my Mytek review months ago.

BTW, a minimalist Auraliti (linux MPD) PK90USb setup also plays large DSD files without a hiccup, so huge onboard RAM is not always a necessity, depending on the architecture.

Fred, ripping ones own SACDs increases the personal DSD choices out there, of course, but it seems the commercially available downloads are starting to ramp up nicely. Jared (Channel Classics) is even doing mutlichannel DSD dl's now.

I will be beta testing some new hardware and software changes that Michal and team have come up with. That's all I can say at this point; l I will report back.

 

RE: Native DSD playback and Memory, posted on August 8, 2012 at 10:57:45
Mercman
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Thanks Ted. I hope to be reviewing a very nice native DSD capable DAC very shortly. We are such busy fellows!

 

RE: Native DSD playback and Memory, posted on August 8, 2012 at 11:04:42
ted_b
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Great! So far I have eval'd (but owe reviews for all but Mytek):
Meitner MA-1 (now own)
Mytek (now own)
Sonore/eXD (USB only but great value DSD DAC for $1200!!)

I hope to hear the bigger brother to the MA-1, the DAC2X, but hate the thought of loving it. :)

 

When you do that, posted on August 8, 2012 at 12:17:18
fmak
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you will realise how imporatnt the usb and firewire cables can be.

 

RE: When you do that, posted on August 8, 2012 at 13:05:41
Tony Lauck
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Should these cables seriously matter it will speak ill of my DAC. Both USB and Firewire are packet interfaces and as used with the Mytek are not clocking the audio samples. In other words, these cables are not in the audio signal path in any way shape or form. If there is a difference it will be due to ground pollution or other secondary effects.




Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Keep an open mind;, posted on August 8, 2012 at 13:38:12
fmak
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theorising desn't work in high quality audio reproduction.

 

Open mind, or empty mind?, posted on August 8, 2012 at 13:50:24
AbeCollins
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"theorising desn't work in high quality audio reproduction."

But apparently, uninformed guessing and speculating does? ;-)

 

RE: Native DSD playback and Memory, posted on August 8, 2012 at 14:13:57
Kenny B
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I purchased the Mytek DAC a few months ago after reading the good things many had written about it - including Ted who had referred to my former DAC (Weiss Minerva/DAC2) in one of his posts. The Mytek was a big step up from the Minerva with PCM. But, DSD playback takes it to an even higher level.

I use Audirvana Plus running on a Mac mini equipped with 8 GB of RAM, which has seemed sufficient. The DAC is connected via Firewire.

I'm curious about Tony's mention of using HQPlayer to upsample PCM to DSD128. I will have to try this.

I recently attempted to play some DSD128 recordings I made of vinyl using a Korg MR2000s recorder, but didn't have much luck. I'm guessing DSD128 may not be supported via Firewire. I switched to recording in DSD64. These recordings sound fantastic. It's amazing how much of the natural timbre is retained - a credit to both the Korg and the Mytek. I think it's the Mytek's reproduction of timbre that has me the most impressed.

I'm crazy to enough to have recently paired the Mytek with an interconnect retailing for almost twice as much (MIT Oracle V3.2). The reproduction of timbre became even more impressive - jaw-droppingly-so on better recordings like the Esoteric remaster of Curzon's performance of Mozart's Piano Concerto No. 20.

The Mytek seems to me to be a steal at its current price.

 

I'm not sure that is the point, posted on August 8, 2012 at 14:42:07
bwb
.

If a change in cables makes your DAC sound seriously better would you refuse to use it just because in your opinion it should not have mattered?

.

 

Empty are those whose posts here get moved, posted on August 8, 2012 at 23:22:56
fmak
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as being irrelevent to audio

 

RE: Keep an open mind;, posted on August 9, 2012 at 05:57:22
Tony Lauck
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Obviously, if the Firewire connection works better than the USB connection I will use that where possible. There are also differences in the many ways the Mytek Stereo192-DSD DAC can be set up and I will explore the new combinations, which include various clock modes, driver and application buffering settings, etc.. The level display can be switched on/off, there are filter choices, there are analog and digital gain control options, etc. If a particular interface is sensitive to digital cable my tendency will be to avoid that interface, just as I did 20 years ago when I discovered (to my amazement) that the optical ST interface in my two box Proceed CD player sounded worse than the coax.

Tweaking the computer and digital cable is a poor substitute for a better DAC, as the need to do so indicates that the sound could have been better if the DAC had been better designed or built. Hence my comment that if the differences I heard were significant I would consider getting a better DAC. It is also possible that any differences I might hear would be due to interference with my powered speakers or their cabling, hence the need for experimentation to isolate this possibility. One has to understand the root cause of a problem if one wants to make the largest possible improvement. Operating incrementally on a "cut and try" basis without proper instrumentation and theoretical understanding can be an immense waste of time, something I learned over 50 years ago when tweaking a Dynaco amplifier. (This is particularly true when the differences are marginal, i.e. cannot be heard 100% of the time when doing blind tests, as the psycho-acoustic noise turns the search process into a random walk.)



Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

It seems, posted on August 9, 2012 at 06:13:42
fmak
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that you are just starting on a journey that some of us started 10 years and more back with digital audio in its many forms. We have learnt to keep open minds simply because cause and effect cannot be established with proper theoretical understanding in some matters in audio.

I have the equipment to measure, the theoretical knowledge in acoustics, measurement and control, and the interest to pursue the hobby of audio, and have done those things that you talk about with many high end dacs, players and computers. I therefore have felt it unnecessary to answer the kinds of questions you pose to which there are no real answers.

I have come to the firm conclusion that the kind of conviction that you promote as the starting point is pretty useless in terms of getting the best sound from a system. A simple example is cabling for which we can speculate on cause and effect, but that is all. Some talk about metallurgy, others dielectric, others geometry but if you start with the conviction that cables don't matter and not allow yourself to try them out, then you will never get the best balance of components in your system.

 

"... uninformed guessing and speculating does?" - it seems that...., posted on August 9, 2012 at 08:20:33
carcass93
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... you are much more appropriate - by far - person to answer that question.

Like, for instance, when you convince yourself that something (USB cables) doesn't matter to sound quality, and then start guessing/speculating as to what theoretical basis could be behind that "sameness"...

 

RE: Keep an open mind;, posted on August 9, 2012 at 09:09:38
rick_m
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"if you start with the conviction that cables don't matter and not allow yourself to try them out, then you will never get the best balance of components in your system."

Oh yea?

Well, from my very own experience I know that you are right about cables and in hindsight I wish I had payed more attention to them decades before I did. It's tough safely assigning "don't care" status to audio things but there are infinitely many things and we only have a finite life.

But where do you draw the line? My current solution is to read AA. One person, say Enid L. may simply be a nut case but if dozens of listeners find massaging their speaker cables with olive oil or somesuch helps the sound, well...

Regards, Rick

 

RE: Keep an open mind;Yea, posted on August 9, 2012 at 09:32:05
fmak
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Some here go on and on about clocking and dacs. Yet with every high quality dac and sound card I have used (quite a few), even the clock cable and impedance matching affect SQ significantly.

As dCS suggested years ago in their manuals, don't always clock as per theory and sometimes recovered clocks can sound better than transmitted clocks.

In other words, cabling and clocking arranagements for a particular hardware set should be to listening and enjoyment purposes and not on the basis of whether transports should be clocked to the device or to a word clock. It may be that are cancelling or additive effects going on but theorising and not trying is no help at all to get better SQ.

 

It seems, posted on August 9, 2012 at 11:16:11
fmak
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Posts: 13158
Location: Kent
Joined: June 1, 2002
that you are just starting on a journey that some of us started 10 years and more back with digital audio in its many forms. We have learnt to keep open minds simply because cause and effect cannot be established with proper theoretical understanding in some matters in audio.

I have the equipment to measure, the theoretical knowledge in acoustics, measurement and control, and the interest to pursue the hobby of audio, and have done those things that you talk about with many high end dacs, players and computers. I therefore have felt it unnecessary to answer the kinds of questions you pose to which there are no real answers.

I have come to the firm conclusion that the kind of conviction that you promote as the starting point is pretty useless in terms of getting the best sound from a system. A simple example is cabling for which we can speculate on cause and effect, but that is all. Some talk about metallurgy, others dielectric, others geometry but if you start with the conviction that cables don't matter and not allow yourself to try them out, then you will never get the best balance of components in your system.

Note: I posted this in response but soemhow the text apeared in response to my own post as can be seen below.


 

Yes, you ARE the audio GOD. I bow before you -nt, posted on August 9, 2012 at 11:34:30
AbeCollins
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Contributor
  Since:
February 2, 2002
.

 

Are you talking about me?, posted on August 9, 2012 at 12:17:15
Tony Lauck
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"It seems that you are just starting on a journey that some of us started 10 years and more back with digital audio in its many forms."


Are you talking about me? I think you might have misplaced this post. (I have over 40 years experience with high quality audio and over 30 years with digital audio.)

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

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