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Thinking about triamping

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Posted on August 7, 2023 at 10:37:50
ketchup
Audiophile

Posts: 641
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: February 29, 2004
 I'm currently biamping my 3.6Rs with Rogue M180s on the mids/tweeters and a Nord Class D on the bass panels. I'm using a 2-way Marchand XM44 that I will have Phil Marchand update to a 4 way model if I decide to do this (I will go with a 4-way so I can easily add subs later).

If I go through with this, I'll use the M180s on the mids and buy another pair of tube mono amps for the tweeters. How important is it to have the tweeter amp match the sonic characteristics of the mid amps? Another pair of M180s seems like overkill for the tweeters. How would a pair of smaller Quicksilver amps work on the tweeters? Would it be too much of a sonic mismatch between them and the Rogues? What about a SET amp for the tweeters? Has anyone done this? I'm just looking for some ideas at this point and would appreciate any thoughts.

 

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RE: Thinking about triamping, posted on August 7, 2023 at 18:16:39
josh358
Industry Professional

Posts: 12376
Joined: February 9, 2010
 Depends entirely on the amp. If it's very colored exotic tube amp, you may hear the difference, otherwise, no. The mid and tweeter already sound different, anyway.

However, I don't think there's as much advantage to putting a separate amp on the tweeter as there is to separating the woofer and midrange. You need a high-level highpass filter on the ribbon for protection, so the active crossover will be of limited use.

Maggies do love biamping. My theory (guess, more like, LOL) is that it's because the amps are able to exert control over the drivers outside crossover's passband, but at high frequencies, that shouldn't be an issue because acoustical rather than electrical damping predominates.

Satie here triamped his Tympani IV's, but went back to bi-amping because he said it wasn't worth the effort.

 

AndyR triamped his Frankenpans, maybe he'll chime in, posted on August 7, 2023 at 19:42:08
MaggiesAndCats
Audiophile

Posts: 755
Location: Central NY
Joined: August 31, 2009
Contributor
  Since: July 16, 2010
 You can search on tramping but I don't think three amps had nearly as much impact as two to Andy.

Regards,

Steve

 

RE: My 3.6Rs are biamped, and frankly,..., posted on August 8, 2023 at 07:43:32
MWE
Audiophile

Posts: 2424
Location: Burlington, NC
Joined: June 8, 2000
 I can't even tolerate listening to them with the stock single-amp setup anymore. Among other improvements, it allows adjusting the balance between the bass and M/T levels to suit the room situation.


Mark in NC
"The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon

 

RE: Thinking about triamping, posted on August 8, 2023 at 11:42:53
DustyC
Audiophile

Posts: 999
Joined: November 4, 2000
 Used the XM44 with a pair of CJ-tube amps on the mid/highs and a Sonographe SS on the woofer panels. Never considered going further than that because of the surgery needed to access the ribbon directly.
(although I was intrigued about a fellow on the DIY/Audio site who modified a pair of 3.5's with a Hypex 3 way plate amp and custom crossover solution and loved it)

 

RE: Thinking about triamping, posted on August 8, 2023 at 11:50:23
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008



My personal 'noodle' which sort-of addresses your problem / question......

I was thinking NCore amps and PS and integrating a MiniDSP HD into the mix......
So after build? You address crossover numbers than test. It should be possible to do anything from duplicate (or fairly close) the panel crossover OR go all the way to FIR filters and who knows WHAT else?


Too much is never enough

 

RE: Thinking about triamping, posted on August 8, 2023 at 17:58:57
emailtim
Audiophile

Posts: 7765
Joined: July 2, 2017
 There is improvement to be had, but that improvement includes improving the off-axis response between the Midrange and Tweeter where human hearing is the most sensitive.

The Midrange is physically closer to the Bass panel than it is to the Tweeter. This is the exact opposite of what should be based on frequency wavelengths. As you see in the first plot, the 3kHz dip gets worse the further off axis you get.

I quad amp, but did the following to improve the Mid/Ribbon integration:

- Changed the XO to get rid of the V-dip/House Curve in the XO region (re-voice the speaker flat).

- Physically moved the Ribbons much closer to the Midrange which improves off axis response (minimizes the crossover region cancellation/smearing by minimizing the physical Left/Center/Right distance deltas).

- Used a steeper Mid/Tweet XO which does 2 things. 1) Narrows the XO region which causes the summation/cancellation dip. 2) Takes the low frequency stress off the Ribbon so it plays more relaxed.

I think these changes made more of an improvement than tri-amping alone.

Getting the Midrange off the Bass panel is another improvement that AndyR can attest to.

YMMV
Fig.1a: Magnepan MG 3.6, pseudo-anechoic horizontal response at 45 degrees (red) and 60 degrees (blue) relative to tweeter axis; off-axis measurements taken on tweeter side.



.

2022/03/30 Historical Records CENSORED

 

Check out Elliot Sound Products , posted on August 8, 2023 at 18:57:30
Ozzie
Audiophile

Posts: 3964
Joined: August 1, 2002
 They have some excellent articles on bi and tri amping. I am running active tri with a couple of Marchand's crossovers. Once I got the levels between the drivers set right I eliminated the knobs on the front.

 

RE: Thinking about triamping, posted on August 9, 2023 at 19:48:11
triamp
Audiophile

Posts: 782
Location: USA
Joined: August 6, 2008
 I tri-amp my MG 3.6's, I use a DEQX so I am able to use a 90 dB per octave crossover between the mid and tweeter. Since I am tri-amping, and using the DEQX I can also use individual filters for each driver, correcting for amplitude response, phase and group delay. Without tr-amping I wouldn't have as much ability to employ these complex per-driver corrections.

I think it's important to use AT LEAST a 48 dB per octave filter between mid and tweeter, and even at 48 dB per octave it's wise to move the crossover point up from the stock 1,500 Hz.

I have also recently added a second DEQX in order to add subwoofers; I cross over from the woofer panel below 45 Hz to a pair of dual 12-inch open baffle servo subs.
Science doesn't care what you believe.

 

RE: A few people have commented about my tri-amping ..., posted on August 10, 2023 at 04:54:34
andyr
Manufacturer

Posts: 12655
Location: Melbourne
Joined: September 2, 2000
 I think I would probably agree that the major improvement is actively bi-amping.

Going to tri-amping, yes, is an advantage IMO - but nowhere near the improvement you get from going from passive XO between bass panels & mid/ribbons ... to active.

I can't comment on the effect of using different amp 'flavours' - as all my amps were ss, from the same designer.

And yes, not having the mid panel on the same sheet of mylar as the bass panel is a significant improvement! :-))

Re. a SET amp for the tweeters - I would think this would be risky ... as SET amps don't have much power. The last thing you want to do is get into clipping on the tweeter amps - in my last incarnation, I was using 40w into 4 ohm Class A amps (stable into 2 ohms) on my ribbons.

 

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