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Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?

209.240.200.91
Posted on June 4, 2000 at 01:07:22
Mark


 
What compresion/horn speaker are you listening to and does it sound warm or does it sound bright with midrange honk?
Just tyring to figure out why some people call horns the next best thing to live sound and why other people call them a dynamic nightmare. (The negative TAD post for example from a while ago)

Thank you very much!
-Mark

 

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Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 4, 2000 at 10:39:22
JoshT


 
Mark,

You're not going to get an objective view on this question. Horns have a distinctive sound, and most people either love them or hate them. I both love them and, sometimes, am disappointed by them, depending on the source.

For example, I think my Klipsch KLF20s sound beautiful with jazz, blues, funk, soul, swing and some types of rock (e.g. Beck, The Who, Pearl Jam). I think vocals sound very life like and sweet, while others think they sound unnaturally "shouty". I do think the KLF 20s can be too "hot" for most busy symphonic music and for some types of rock (e.g. Red Hot Chili Peppers, Aerosmith). Of course, the KLF20s are not representative of all horns. There are some who love horns generally, but hate the KLF 20s because they have direct radiating and (gasp) ported woofers.

So, while it's very interesting to share opinions on this topic, ultimately no one is going to pursuade you one way or the other until you've listened to horns for an extended period. Then you'll join one sider or the other side of this debate. Lordy, it goes on and on and on!

--JoshT


 

Re: I agree, quite subjective, posted on June 4, 2000 at 11:06:47
Doug Eisemann


 
i would have to agree with the comment that there are plenty of variables when you ask about the sound of horns. It really depends on what kind of sound/music combination one likes and the kind of horn used. I am most familiar with the Altec equipment that I am just beginning with and I can say I really enjoy the sound of an ALtec 802/902 compression driver on a 511b horn, aside from the peakiness caused by the ringing aluminum horn. I have heard quite a few beautiful sounding pro audio speakers as well, using horn loaded high and low frequency drivers.(Bag End, some good JBL, EAW) Then again, some horns out there have that horrible "gymnasium PA sound" such as some Peavey's I have heard. Other than this, I will just say IMHO, when horns are done right, they can be unbelievable, yet bad horns will make you wonder why they are used at all. Doug E.

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 4, 2000 at 11:25:11
Bastus


 
Mark, If you want the BEST IMO, then horns/Tads is the way to go! The thing is, you have to do it right in order to get the warmth of the compression driver and IMHO you need a large spherical horn to do it. Crossing it over lower is the way to go to get the warmth. And there is something magical when you use a Large horn that cannot be accomplished by smaller horns. I feel that when using large horns your compression driver is not working as hard and the sound just has a certain ease to it, music becomes more relaxed, warm and organic. Although, I still belive that Tads are the best drivers in ANY application. I used to use my Tad 4002 as a tweeter (crossed over like a tweeter)with outstanding results. Actually, better than any tweeter I've tested EVER! Without brightness or fatigue, just as good as a tweeter can get, realistic sound!

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 4, 2000 at 13:35:00
Steve


 
Josh,
>>Horns have a distinctive sound, and most people either love them or hate them<<

That's the same as saying that dynamic speakers have a distinctive sound, (like SF Concertinos and Wilson Grand Slamms?????). There are dozens of different types of horn shapes and sizes and likewise as many different drivers, all of which have different characteristics.

The basic problem with horns is that there are some bad designs around that are colored and do honk (especially in the pro arena) and these examples give the whole genre a bad name.

The reasons some horns sound colored and honky is well known and can easily be avoided with good engineering.

The bottom line I believe has more to do with the use of a very efficient speaker with little dynamic and thermal compression, which in turn gives the music a special quality, directness and ease. If you can achieve the efficiency while avoiding any serious mistakes with internal reflections and distortions, you've got the basis for a good loudspeaker.

In conclusion, some horn loudspeakers sound great, others don't.


 

Low Distortion/Great Dynamics, posted on June 4, 2000 at 16:41:02
Tom Dawson


 
I've yet to see the dome midrange/tweeter that can come close to playing 300hz - 15khz @120db like my TAD4001/concrete tractric horn combo does without trouble, or handle that range of frequencies with the low distortion, detail and directional control that the horn approach offers.

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 4, 2000 at 19:06:49
Mike Bates


 
I had a few people over to listen to my newly completed horn speakers this weekend. It has all TAD drivers with wooden horns. Everyone that has heard the speakers say it the best they have ever heard, there is no honkyness or horn coloration at all, just pure, alive low distortion, music coming out of them. You really need to hear a pair to fully get the picture I'm afraid, words can only go so far. What is a "dynamic nightmare" anyway? Are you speaking of the troll on the TAD/wooden horn thread?

Mike Bates

 

where can you buy TADs???, posted on June 5, 2000 at 08:36:07
mike9186


 

I have read a lot about them....where can I purchase??


 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 5, 2000 at 14:50:19
JoshT


 
Yes, I agree Steve. I didn't make all of my points very well. You are particularly correct in pointing out that horns have no more of a "distinctive sound" than direct radiating speakers (it's just that more people are used to the latter than the former these days) and that one cannot lump all horns together by any stretch. Sorry if I mispoke, but my main point was that this debate has no objective answer IMHO.

 

Re: where can you buy TADs???, posted on June 5, 2000 at 15:25:22
Mike Bates


 
I've had good luck buying them used at pretty darn good discounts.

Try Tom Hodder at 310-973-0346

or HTICS (Bill or Lynn) @ HTICS@aol.com

For new, try Tom Hodder or call TAD direct. They should be able to give you some dealers.

Mike

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 5, 2000 at 17:14:07
Mark


 
*I had a few people over to listen to my newly completed horn speakers this weekend. It has all TAD drivers with wooden horns.*

How much do you think i would have to spend on drivers materials to make a replica of yours?

*Everyone that has heard the speakers say it the best they have ever heard, there is no honkyness or horn coloration at all, just pure, alive low distortion, music coming out of them.*

Sounds nice, how big is your listening room? Would a TAD horn setup work in a Small listening room? (my room is small)
What was the source vinyl or CD?

*You really need to hear a pair to fully get the picture I'm afraid, words can only go so far.*

It seems that way.

*What is a "dynamic nightmare" anyway?*

Honk, megaphone effect, "clapping" sound etc. Complaints that i have read about Horns.

*Are you speaking of the troll on the TAD/wooden horn thread?*

I read one in here where a guy heard a TAD speaker (TAD made) and said it was terrible. I didn't follow the thread to see if he was a troll or not. He didn't mention what amp, source or anything but it should not matter that much to call a speaker terrible.

-Mark

 

Re: Low Distortion/Great Dynamics, posted on June 5, 2000 at 17:26:25
Mark


 
*I've yet to see the dome midrange/tweeter that can come close to playing 300hz - 15khz @120db like my TAD4001/concrete tractric horn combo does without trouble, or handle that range of frequencies with the low distortion, detail and directional control that the horn approach offers.*

What dome mids have you listened to? What is your opinion on the ATC dome midrange and various Ribbon tweeters? (Stage accompany, Raven)

I chose to make a speaker using the ATC dome mid because it was said to be the closest thing to a true horn speaker (dynamics) without the megaphone effect.
Its a Professional mid and 16 ohm. Its horn loaded but not a "true" horn. Very clear, low distortion and dynamic.
Best mid i have ever heard but i have not heard the TAD 4001.

-Mark

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 5, 2000 at 17:38:02
Mark


 
*Mark, If you want the BEST IMO, then horns/Tads is the way to go! The thing is, you have to do it right in order to get the warmth of the compression driver and IMHO you need a large spherical horn to do it.*

Will this type of horn work well in a small room. Keep in mind i listen really close to my speakers and rarely over 90db. I have been told horns sound their best in large damped rooms.

*Crossing it over lower is the way to go to get the warmth.*

What x-over point and what slope for the TAD 4001?

*And there is something magical when you use a Large horn that cannot be accomplished by smaller horns. I feel that when using large horns your compression driver is not working as hard and the sound just has a certain ease to it, music becomes more relaxed, warm and organic. Although, I still belive that Tads are the best drivers in ANY application.*

Large horns? How large?
Where would you rank the ATC dome mid and the various ribbon tweeters?

*I used to use my Tad 4002 as a tweeter (crossed over like a tweeter)with outstanding results. Actually, better than any tweeter I've tested EVER! Without brightness or fatigue, just as good as a tweeter can get, realistic sound!*

What amps do you run your TAD'S with? I own a pair of ET B-Glow kit amps i built.
Have you ever listened to the Stage Accompany Ribbon?

Thanks,
-Mark

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 5, 2000 at 18:49:28
Mike Bates


 
Sounds nice, how big is your listening room? Would a TAD horn setup work in a Small listening room? (my room is small)
What was the source vinyl or CD?

>>>>> My room is 14.5 x 24 x 7.5'. I listen around 11 feet away. I think my setup is a bit much for a smaller room. A simple 2 way with a 15 or 12" woofer and compression driver/horn should be all you need. I had mine in a two way config. and really liked it. I thought they sounded great in nearfield (8-9'). My turntable is down. I'm listening to a Pioneer DVD player with a Bel Canto DAC-1 feeding a conrad johnson Premier 14 preamp, a Marchand SS electronic crossover and SET amps. A BGlow (300B)on the woofers and a Wright (2a3) 3.5 amp on the compression drivers. A single SET is plenty though, I like biamping. When my table was working it was better, I need to get it set up again : )

*Are you speaking of the troll on the TAD/wooden horn thread?*

I read one in here where a guy heard a TAD speaker (TAD made) and said it was terrible. I didn't follow the thread to see if he was a troll or not. He didn't mention what amp, source or anything but it should not matter that much to call a speaker terrible.

>>>>>Maybe it wasn't a troll. The speakers can be overwellming at first, almost spooky (well they stay spooky.) With the TAD drivers you get all the music and all the timbre and colors of voices and instruments with a very dynamic presentation. If you have ever heard a good pair of electrostatic headphones it is very much like that, but of course it's full sized. I prefer tube amps on almost all speakers not just horns. With high efficiency speakers like these you are using less than a watt most of the time, if the speakers are being fed with some typical sand amp it will definetly show up as listening to a sand amp (grain). Not really my cup of tea. Maybe a PASS se amp would sound great though, I don't know, never tried it and probably never will. I tried an Aragon 4004 on the comp. drivers it was real grainy.

Mike Bates

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 5, 2000 at 19:07:23
Mike Bates


 
"How much do you think i would have to spend on drivers materials to make a replica of yours?"

I have around $3300.00 in them. To buy new drivers and horns it would be around $8000.00 with the wood and no crossover. The TAD's ain't cheap... really top quality. A nice two way with horns using used drivers and new horns can be built for around $2000.00, new drivers around $3500.00. I really don't think you can buy any used speakers that will equal these for that kind of money. The top of the line TAD studio monitors are around $15,000. The Edgar Titans and the CAR speakers are incredible deals at retail considering the quality of drivers and sound quality you get.

Mike Bates


 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 5, 2000 at 20:17:18
Bastus


 
*Will this type of horn work well in a small room. Keep in mind i listen really close to my speakers and rarely over 90db. I have been told horns sound their best in large damped rooms.*

For the Large 32" mouth 3 feet long horn I'm talking about, I wouldn't recommend anything less than Mike's room around 15 feet wide and 20 somewhat long room. If I had a smaller room than this, I would use the 26" horn which has maybe around 85% of the performance of the 32". Listening nearfield works better with the 26" also in a small room.

*What x-over point and what slope for the TAD 4001?*

I would say info down to 300hz using either 32" or 26" horns. 6db.slope to get to that point.

*Where would you rank the ATC dome mid and the various ribbon tweeters?*

I haven't heard that particular dome mid but I've heard the Raven ribbon which supposedly goes down to 500hz and sold for around $3500 a pair and it's MILES away from ANY Tad.


*What amps do you run your TAD'S with? I own a pair of ET B-Glow kit amps i built.
Have you ever listened to the Stage Accompany Ribbon?*

My favorite amp is my Custom Silver 2A3's, I use also the SunAudio 2A3, 2 kinds of 300B amps also. Your B-Glow should be ideal for horn set-up. No I haven't heard the Stage Accompany Ribbon.

Ciao,
Victor



 

Re: Low Distortion/Great Dynamics, posted on June 5, 2000 at 21:52:09
Tom Dawson


 
I'm considering possibly using the Stage Accompany ribbons for some slightly smaller speakers. Basically, they fall off reponse wise rapidly below 1khz, so that should be kept in mind when crossing them over. I have doubts that a two-way system would work optimally with the SA ribbons if crossing over to larger than 12" drivers because of cone breakup modes and beaming of the woofer.

The Raven R3 requires a high order crossover to work safely down to 500 hz, and I like quasi first order whenever possible, plus I understand that they're more fragile electrically than compression horn drivers, as well as being less efficient.



 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 5, 2000 at 23:05:10
Paul Joppa


 
I'm listening to Alnico JBL 2440's with titanium 2445 diaphragms, crossed at 800Hz, with an HL93 clone (short horn, 4" mouth, small slant-plate lens). It certainly is colored, some might call it honky. And it's aggressive in the highs. (And the cheap imitation lenses rattle - gotta do something about that soon!)

These things used to bother me, and seemed to be characteristic of all horn HF systems. It took more than a month of listening to this combination before I noticed that its faults did not bother me so much as they did at first, and I developed an appreciation of the virtues. (To me the virtues are a great clarity, immediacy, and sense of dynamic ease.) Now I enjoy other horn systems that I hated before. I'm pretty sure that I changed, not the speakers. So I have to come down on the side of the subjectivists here. There's no way to give an unequivocal answer. And while you must trust your ears, even that's a slippery slope - you have to give your ears and brain enough time to adapt before you can know how you will like a certain sound in the long term.

Frustrating, ain't it? :^)

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 6, 2000 at 00:59:38
Mark


 
"How much do you think i would have to spend on drivers materials to make a replica of yours?"
<>

Well, i certaintly am not going to get them from TAD at 8K. I could either use a Edgar horn or build my own. There is a japanese website i came across with instructions on building your own TAD wooden horns.

<>

Is there someone i can buy these from that will let me try a TAD out and return it? I have a Marchand tube crossover and i could try them out with it.
There is no TAD systems locally or even near to test.

<>

I saw them at TAD. Look very nice.

<>

More fun to build my own :-)

Thanks,
-Mark

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 6, 2000 at 01:14:33
Mark


 
"How much do you think i would have to spend on drivers
materials to make a replica of yours?"

*I have around $3300.00 in them. To buy new drivers and
horns it would be around $8000.00 with the wood and no
crossover.*

I saw the link you gave to get them used. Does the Tom guy have many drivers or a limited quanity.

*The TAD's ain't cheap... really top quality. A nice two
way with horns using used drivers and new horns can be
built for around $2000.00, new drivers around $3500.00.*

Is there someone i can buy these from that will let me try a TAD out and return it? I have a Marchand tube crossover
and i could try them out with it.
There are no TAD systems locally or even near to test and i would like to hear them.

*I really don't think you can buy any used speakers that
will equal these for that kind of money. The top of the
line TAD studio monitors are around $15,000.*

I saw them at TAD. Look very nice.

*The Edgar Titans and the CAR speakers are incredible
deals at retail considering the quality of drivers and
sound quality you get.*

More fun to build my own :-)

Thanks,
-Mark

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 6, 2000 at 01:37:45
Mark


 
*My room is 14.5 x 24 x 7.5'. I listen around 11 feet away. I think my setup is a bit much for a smaller room.*

What drivers do you use? A 3-way?

*A simple 2 way with a 15 or 12" woofer and compression driver/horn should be all you need. I had mine in a two way config. and really liked it. I thought they sounded great in nearfield (8-9').*

How high would a 2-way go? Does a horns highs sound airy like a ribbon?

*My turntable is down. I'm listening to a Pioneer DVD player with a Bel Canto DAC-1 feeding a conrad johnson Premier 14 preamp, a Marchand SS electronic crossover and SET amps. A BGlow (300B)on the woofers and a Wright (2a3) 3.5 amp on the compression drivers.*

I have apair of B-Glows also. Nice sounding little amps. I also have a C-J preamp and marchand crossover.

*A single SET is plenty though, I like biamping.*

Same here!

*When my table was working it was better, I need to get it set up again : )*

Thats what my uncle keeps telling me. I have never heard a really good turntable before setup correctly.

**Are you speaking of the troll on the TAD/wooden horn thread?**

"I read one in here where a guy heard a TAD speaker (TAD made) and said it was terrible. I didn't follow the thread to see if he was a troll or not. He didn't mention what amp, source or anything but it should not matter that much to call a speaker terrible."

*Maybe it wasn't a troll. The speakers can be overwellming at first, almost spooky (well they stay spooky.)
With the TAD drivers you get all the music and all the timbre and colors of voices and instruments with a very dynamic presentation.*

Why would he dislike this though?

*If you have ever heard a good pair of electrostatic headphones it is very much like that, but of course it's full sized.*

Never heard any. I really hope the Tom guy will sort of "Loan" me a TAD to try out. I would hate to buy it and be dissapointed. (thought, not likely from your decriptions)

*I prefer tube amps on almost all speakers not just horns. With high efficiency speakers like these you are using less than a watt most of the time, if the speakers are being fed with some typical sand amp it will definetly show up as listening to a sand amp (grain). Not really my cup of tea. Maybe a PASS se amp would sound great though, I don't know, never tried it and probably never will. I tried an Aragon 4004 on the comp. drivers it was real grainy.*

300B for me!

Thanks,
Mark

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 6, 2000 at 01:50:52
Mark


 

"Will this type of horn work well in a small room. Keep in mind i listen really close to my speakers and rarely over 90db. I have been told horns sound their best in large damped rooms."

*For the Large 32" mouth 3 feet long horn I'm talking about, I wouldn't recommend anything less than Mike's room around 15 feet wide and 20 somewhat long room. If I had a smaller room than this, I would use the 26" horn which has maybe around 85% of the performance of the 32". Listening nearfield works better with the 26" also in a small room.*

Looking at the TAD page, there is only 3 horns, 2 wood horns and another type. Where can i find 26" wooden horns?

"What x-over point and what slope for the TAD 4001?"

*I would say info down to 300hz using either 32" or 26" horns. 6db.slope to get to that point.*

Thanks!

"Where would you rank the ATC dome mid and the various ribbon tweeters?"

*I haven't heard that particular dome mid but I've heard the Raven ribbon which supposedly goes down to 500hz and sold for around $3500 a pair and it's MILES away from ANY Tad.*

Yikes, i am using a R1 (cheap version) in a project. And the ATC mid. Now i HAVE to hear a TAD.

"What amps do you run your TAD'S with? I own a pair of ET B-Glow kit amps i built. Have you ever listened to the Stage Accompany Ribbon?"

*My favorite amp is my Custom Silver 2A3's, I use also the SunAudio 2A3, 2 kinds of 300B amps also. Your B-Glow should be ideal for horn set-up.*

Yeah, its a 8 watter class a.

*No I haven't heard the Stage Accompany Ribbon.*

Supposed to be really airy and clear.

Thanks,
-Mark

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 6, 2000 at 01:57:22
Mark


 
Ignore last e-mail. I retyped it because supposedly it got lost. (don't know why it got posted and why its missing the reply with < > in place of it)

-Mark

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth? (LINK), posted on June 6, 2000 at 02:12:52
Mark


 
Here is something from the artical on High-End audio from http://www.vmpsaudio.com/design3.htm
Not trying to start a flame or anything, just thought the artical was interesting.

Anyway here it is :

**** Other people in the High End insist on resurrecting old technology and promoting it as new technology. In speakers, this means above all, HORNS. Bruce Edgar builds a $20,000 horn, that French outfit a $65,000 horn. Horns?? With phenolic drivers? Many milliseconds of delay? The "megaphone effect" (reflections within the horn throat that make everybody sound like Rudy Vallee)? Yes, the efficiency is amazing, as is the sound pressure. Yes it's impactful and sounds better with those 5 Watt single-ended triode power amps. Yes the overall sound quality is marginal to dreadful. No, there's nothing you can do about it: change the driver, change the horn throat, equalize, use better materials. Nothing really helps. Don't listen to horns, they're bad for your aural health. ****

What do you all think of this artical?

-Mark

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 6, 2000 at 05:17:23
Mike Bates


 
I agree, I've really enjoyed building mine. I still have a few ideas to improve the sound, I guess I'm just a horny tweak : )

Tom is an authorized dealer and repair center and sometimes has compression drivers. I don't think he has a large supply. Down the street from him is Bruce Edgars place. Dr. Edgar might give you a discount on the drivers if you buy his horns. HTICS is a prosound broker, that's where I bought my 1601a's and 1201 drivers. The 1201 is really a nice sounding driver when placed in an Edgar bass horn. It mates up with the compression driver better than the direct radiator, with higher efficiency, more detail, dynamics and warmth. They are also less expensive than the 15's. HTICS had 2 new 1201 16 ohm woofer left last time I checked for $225.00 each. I really don't know where you can try them out without buying them first.

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth? (LINK), posted on June 6, 2000 at 05:40:38
Mike Bates


 
All speakers sound different, some like ribbons, some electrostats, some dynamics. To each their own. I have owned some really good speakers, DAL, Magnepan, Quad, Innersound, Von Schweikert, Coincident Super Eclipses, ect.. to me they can be very good sounding but are compressed and lifeless compared to a good horn speaker, they don't sound like the real thing. For example I have a really good recording of an acoustic guitar, Behzad, Strings of Desire, with my speakers the guitar IS in the room, being played by Behzad, you can hear the the body and strings like they are right here, the flamenco dancers emerge and if you close your eyes, they are in the room with him (and you!). With other speakers I've owned they only hint at this. I feel the horns are more believable and a hell of lot *more fun* to listen to. I also feel the writer probably hasn't lived with a pair modern horns in his listnening room. Who wrote it?

Mike

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 6, 2000 at 06:02:25
Mike Bates


 
What drivers do you use? A 3-way?

>>> The TD-4002 compression drivers in 500 cycle Edgar "salad bowl" horns 700 cycles up, they have a 1.5" exit compared to the 4001's 2" and are more extended in the highs (so I've been told), the 1201 midbass woofers in Edgar 100 cycle tractrix horns, crossed over at 90 and 700 cycles (still experimenting), and 2 1601a woofer per channel.

How high would a 2-way go? Does a horns highs sound airy like a ribbon?

>>> I measured mine pretty flat out to 16k, but the rat shack meter is flaky past there, they extend out past my hearing range which is higher than 16k. The best part is, depending on the horn, is you can run them down to 300 cycles. Someday I'd like to try a larger horn. The speakers are easily as airy as the Magnepan or Apogee ribbon and much more cohesive. The closest I've heard is the old RTR electrostatic tweeters, still not as cohesive though.

I have apair of B-Glows also. Nice sounding little amps. I also have a C-J preamp and marchand crossover.

*When my table was working it was better, I need to get it set up again : )*

Thats what my uncle keeps telling me. I have never heard a really good turntable before setup correctly.

>>>> I really don't miss my table much with these speakers/amps, but I do miss my recordings! I have a SOTA/ET/Grado with a Black Cube phono preamp, it's pretty good.

Why would he dislike this though?

>>>>> He never had them at home. Maybe that would make the difference, maybe not. I personally have a hard time evaluating speakers outside my system/room.

*I prefer tube amps on almost all speakers not just horns. With high efficiency speakers like these you are using less than a watt most of the time, if the speakers are being fed with some typical sand amp it will definetly show up as listening to a sand amp (grain). Not really my cup of tea. Maybe a PASS se amp would sound great though, I don't know, never tried it and probably never will. I tried an Aragon 4004 on the comp. drivers it was real grainy.*

300B for me!

>>>>> The B-Glows are great little amps, mine are still stock other than a coupling cap. What speakers are you using now?

Mike Bates

 

Re: Article by Brian Cheney, the new Rudy Bozak (he wishes), posted on June 6, 2000 at 07:19:07
Tom Brennan


 
Cheney makes the VMPS speakers which are real Frankenstein monsters--he does things like make 5-ways using a 15" and a passive, then a 12", then an array of cone mids, crosses those to an array of dometweeters then caps it off with a planar-magnetic tweeter, real mish-moshes. I've heard some of his speakers and they don't sound so cool, like this guy should talk. It's just a variation on the old Rudy Bozak theory of keeping distortion of direct radiators down by using multiple drivers, difference is that Rudy had a consistent design and made his own drivers (of VERY high quality) and his speakers sounded pretty good. Who cares what this guy Cheney thinks.

 

Interesting, posted on June 6, 2000 at 08:49:04
Edp


 
Mish-mash!, love it.

I have heard several of his creations and several of Dr Bruce Edgar's.
What I hear out of Edgars creations, words and writtings are significantly more pleasing than that of Mr Cheney's

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 6, 2000 at 09:11:17
Doc B.


 
Listen to this guy. *Every* damned speaker in the world is colored. The act of breaking in a speaker is about 50% the materials settling down and 50% breaking in your brain - your brain figuring out a filter that makes you accept what you are hearing is something resembling the real deal.

Paul and I have sat down and listened to a bunch of different tweeters in the last few months, horns, domes, cones, and there is one thing common to all of them (and ribbon/planars too). They *all* color the sound. In different ways, maybe to varying degrees, but they all contribute their own flavor.

So, all you can do is choose your poison. I'll hazard a guess that most folks prefer box speakers with domes or ribbons just because that is what they are used to hearing. I exiled myself from box speakers with domes for a couple months a while back, and listened to some horns. By the end of the two months the horns sounded great, in spite of their warts, and when I went back to the box speakers, they sounded like boxes with domes, not worse, not better, just a different set of colorations that my brain had to "refilter". It was very easy to pick one piece of music that sounded best on the horn, another that sounded best on the box speaker.

I suggest going to hear acoustic music a lot while in the process of choosing a new speaker design. For me the thing that comes out time and time again is that the real stuff sounds real not because of it's tonal balance or it's "image", but because you don't hear distortion products like IMD from a driver trying to do too many frequencies at once, or running into it's non linear region of travel. And horns can have some advantages in these areas

After you hear a lot of live music, go back and listen to some speakers and decide which set of compromises is easiest for your brain to accept.

 

Re: Interesting, posted on June 6, 2000 at 09:29:48
Bastus


 
I second! Don't even compare his CRAP to Bruce's gems!

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 6, 2000 at 09:36:48
Bastus


 
Mark, email personally so I can forward you my site for the Large horns.

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 6, 2000 at 15:46:09
Mark


 
*I agree, I've really enjoyed building mine. I still have a few ideas to improve the sound,*

What changes would the tweak do to the sound? Whats the tweak?

*I guess I'm just a horny tweak : )*

:-)

*Tom is an authorized dealer and repair center and sometimes has compression drivers. I don't think he has a large supply.*

I called him today. He is out of the TAD 4001's. He was really busy so i will just e-mail him to see when he might get more in.

*Down the street from him is Bruce Edgars place. Dr. Edgar might give you a discount on the drivers if you buy his horns.*

Where can i reach Bruce Edgar? Does he have a website?

*HTICS is a prosound broker, that's where I bought my 1601a's and 1201 drivers. The 1201 is really a nice sounding driver when placed in an Edgar bass horn.*

I heard the Bass horns are HUGE. I am in a small room.
There is a guy on usenet selling 4 1601a's for $800. Is this a good deal? They are mint shape he says.
I also had TAD send me the current catalog so i can look at the newer drivers.

How big of a cabinet does a single 1601a need to go into? (Volume/ sealed cabinet)

*It mates up with the compression driver better than the direct radiator, with higher efficiency, more detail, dynamics and warmth. They are also less expensive than the 15's. HTICS had 2 new 1201 16 ohm woofer left last time I checked for $225.00 each. I really don't know where you can try them out without buying them first.*

I have some gooooood news. I called TAD and they directed me to a Dealer nearby. Looks like i will be hearing TAD soon :-)! The system uses the 4001, horn tweeter, and 15" woofers. He also sells drivers too.

-Mark

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 6, 2000 at 16:28:01
Mark


 
"What drivers do you use? A 3-way?"

*The TD-4002 compression drivers in 500 cycle Edgar "salad
bowl" horns 700 cycles up, they have a 1.5" exit compared
to the 4001's 2" and are more extended in the highs (so
I've been told), the 1201 midbass woofers in Edgar 100
cycle tractrix horns, crossed over at 90 and 700 cycles
(still experimenting), and 2 1601a woofer per channel.*

Sounds nice. Really nice.

"How high would a 2-way go? Does a horns highs sound airy
like a ribbon?"

*I measured mine pretty flat out to 16k, but the rat shack
meter is flaky past there, they extend out past my hearing
range which is higher than 16k.*

This is high enough. Do you know of anyone using TAD
4001's in a 2way?

*The best part is, depending on the horn, is you can run
them down to 300 cycles.*

Where would i have to cut them at assuming i used 24db
octave slope and a smaller horn for nearfield?

*Someday I'd like to try a larger horn. The speakers are
easily as airy as the Magnepan or Apogee ribbon and much
more cohesive. The closest I've heard is the old RTR
electrostatic tweeters, still not as cohesive though.*

Seems like TAD has everything covered.

*When my table was working it was better, I need to get it
set up again : )*

"Thats what my uncle keeps telling me. I have never heard
a really good turntable before setup correctly.

*I really don't miss my table much with these
speakers/amps, but I do miss my recordings!*

Interesting. The TADS must be chunky sounding. Most people
say CD players are thin. The TADs must make up for it.

*I have a SOTA/ET/Grado with a Black Cube phono preamp,
it's pretty good.*

"Why would he dislike this though?"

*He never had them at home. Maybe that would make the
difference, maybe not. I personally have a hard time
evaluating speakers outside my system/room.*

The place i am going to listen to the TAD's has a pretty
big listening room it appears. I will try to sit same
height and distance as i would at home. I should still be
able to tell i like them or not though.

*I prefer tube amps on almost all speakers not just horns.
With high efficiency speakers like these you are using
less than a watt most of the time, if the speakers are
being fed with some typical sand amp it will definetly
show up as listening to a sand amp (grain). Not really my
cup of tea. Maybe a PASS se amp would sound great though,
I don't know, never tried it and probably never will. I
tried an Aragon 4004 on the comp. drivers it was real
grainy.*

"300B for me!"

"I have apair of B-Glows also. Nice sounding little amps.
I also have a C-J preamp and marchand crossover."

*The B-Glows are great little amps, mine are still stock
other than a coupling cap.*

Mine are stock also. I am going to have to put a bottom
plate on it. One day i might move it and reach under by
mistake and ZAP. Real dangerous.

*What speakers are you using now?*

Well, i am actually in the process of making my own using
Raven ribbon, ATC (horn-loaded dome) mids and dual 12"s.
If the TADS are trully superior i will start all over
again from scratch. I don't need a speaker that will play
100db distortion free or sound clear at 120db as i am
listening near-field. Tom (your friend) said they might be
a bit much for a small room (11 x 10 x 12) and near-field
or possibly overkill since i only listen at 90db. I am
very curious to hear the TAD's. So far the ATC mid is the
best i have heard. (it was also expensive at $450ea)

-Mar

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 6, 2000 at 17:06:20
Mike Bates


 
What changes would the tweak do to the sound? Whats the tweak?

>>>>I still haven't built my subs, I'm using eight JBL 2235 15's loaded in the corners for the bottom octave. I want to try different crossover slopes and points, and the cabinets need some cosmetic work. I really just got them up and running a week or so ago. I planned on venting the bass cabinets but am running them sealed, they are really over damped. I'll probably vent and tune one tonight, and compare it with the sealed box. The sealed boxes seem to mate with the midbass horn pretty well, they are really fast and tight.

*Tom is an authorized dealer and repair center and sometimes has compression drivers. I don't think he has a large supply.*

I called him today. He is out of the TAD 4001's. He was really busy so i will just e-mail him to see when he might get more in.

>>>> The 4002 is what I'm using it had a smaller throat and is said to be more extended in the highs. The 4001 is more expensive and has the big Alnico magnet, it is said to be warmer sounding than the 4002.

*Down the street from him is Bruce Edgars place. Dr. Edgar might give you a discount on the drivers if you buy his horns.*

Where can i reach Bruce Edgar? Does he have a website?

>>>>>> http://www.euphonosaudio.com/

I heard the Bass horns are HUGE. I am in a small room.
There is a guy on usenet selling 4 1601a's for $800. Is this a good deal? They are mint shape he says.
I also had TAD send me the current catalog so i can look at the newer drivers.

>>>>>>> That sounds like a fair price. The 1601a really sounds great. They won't work well in a horn. I had a single 1601a in a 5 cubic foot cabinet tuned to 40 cycles (vented) and it worked great. 6-7 should be better, you can probably get them down to 30 cycles.

I have some gooooood news. I called TAD and they directed me to a Dealer nearby. Looks like i will be hearing TAD soon :-)! The system uses the 4001, horn tweeter, and 15" woofers. He also sells drivers too.

>>>>>> Be sure and take your own music and maybe your amps. Please post how they sound, never heard the factory speakers.

Mike

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth? *link*, posted on June 6, 2000 at 17:08:54
Mike Bates


 
Here's the Magnetar's.............

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth? *link*, posted on June 7, 2000 at 02:48:14
Mark


 
WOW! Now i see what you mean. Those horns are huge. Very nice looking speakers. BTW, did you read my other post? I had some questions about a 2-way in there.

-Mark

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 7, 2000 at 03:18:11
Mark


 
"What changes would the tweak do to the sound? Whats the tweak?"

*I still haven't built my subs, I'm using eight JBL 2235 15's loaded in the corners for the bottom octave.*

Eight (8) JBL 15's? Why so many when you already have 4 1601a's? This must be your "End it all" system.

*I want to try different crossover slopes and points, and the cabinets need some cosmetic work. I really just got them up and running a week or so ago. I planned on venting the bass cabinets but am running them sealed, they are really over damped. I'll probably vent and tune one tonight, and compare it with the sealed box. The sealed boxes seem to mate with the midbass horn pretty well, they are really fast and tight.*

If you vent it and compare let us know!

*Tom is an authorized dealer and repair center and sometimes has compression drivers. I don't think he has a large supply.*

"I called him today. He is out of the TAD 4001's. He was really busy so i will just e-mail him to see when he might get more in."

*The 4002 is what I'm using it had a smaller throat and is said to be more extended in the highs. The 4001 is more expensive and has the big Alnico magnet, it is said to be warmer sounding than the 4002.*

If i were to get either it would have to be the 4001 due to shielding. (alnico being self-shielding)
Do you think a 4001 would work in a 2-way?

*Down the street from him is Bruce Edgars place. Dr. Edgar might give you a discount on the drivers if you buy his horns.*

"Where can i reach Bruce Edgar? Does he have a website?"

*http://www.euphonosaudio.com/*

Thanks!

"I heard the Bass horns are HUGE. I am in a small room.
There is a guy on usenet selling 4 1601a's for $800. Is this a good deal? They are mint shape he says.
I also had TAD send me the current catalog so i can look at the newer drivers."

*That sounds like a fair price. The 1601a really sounds great. They won't work well in a horn.*

Do i need to have horn bass horn to get the Horn experience? I'm really limited on space. I was hoping i could make a 2-way using 2 1601a's per side and a 4001 with wood horn crossed at 500hz 24db. Is This a bad idea?

*I had a single 1601a in a 5 cubic foot cabinet tuned to 40 cycles (vented) and it worked great. 6-7 should be better, you can probably get them down to 30 cycles.*

What is the volume minimum for sealed? (vented are usually bigger) If its 7 cubic feet i would only be able to use one per cabinet.

"I have some gooooood news. I called TAD and they directed me to a Dealer nearby. Looks like i will be hearing TAD soon :-)! The system uses the 4001, horn tweeter, and 15" woofers. He also sells drivers too."

*Be sure and take your own music and maybe your amps.*

I am bringing my own music. He has DHT amps up there.

*Please post how they sound, never heard the factory speakers.*

They are not factory speakers, but the T-1 and T-3 made by John Wolff. On meta-gizmo it said they were best of the show at CES 98. The reason why TAD forwarded me to him was because he also sells drivers.

-Mark

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth? *link*, posted on June 7, 2000 at 15:18:00
Mike Bates


 
Mark, Thanks for the compliment! Please email me at batepm@aol.com This thread is getting to be more of a chat between us then anything else. I see little if any interest in it from the rest of the group, we'll save some AA disk space...

Thanks,

Mike Bates

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth?, posted on June 7, 2000 at 18:46:04
Mike Bates


 
I like the idea of corner loading the woofers in a line source, you get low driver distortion using multiple drivers. If I had a huge room, I'd be using 4 TAD 18's loaded in big ole' straight horns, this is a good compromise... lots of room gain and less chance of room mode suckouts and standing waves. The 4 15" TADS are for freq. above 40 cycles then they hand off to the midbass horns. I guess I'm building a system to fit my room.

The 4001 should work great in a two way, the TAD studio monitors with their own horns use it without a tweeter. You certainly need a bass horn if you want the "bass horn" sound. When I went from just using the 1601a to the 100 cycle horn it made a big difference, everything sounds better.. faster, less colored, much more dynamic. I now have the magic of the TAD/Edgar high horn all the way down to 100-120 cycles. What i want to do is get the magic down below 20 cycles, that's why I'm going to be using twelve 15" woofers ; - )

As far as the crossover for your 4001's it will be determined by the horn you put it in. The 24 db crossover is what I'm using, it lets you get real close to the horn cutoff. A sealed 7 cubic foot cabinet will be a bit overdamped, probably a good idea with your amps. Just experiment!

The CAR's are probably great speakers, maybe the best in the world under the right conditions. A fellow that used to frequent this forum loves his. (Hi Phil, if you are lurking) He and Bastas convinced me to get into these TADs. I'm really glad I did, thanks again! Please post your impressions of the CARs or email me.

Mike

 

Re: Compression/Horn. Honk or warmth? *link*, posted on June 8, 2000 at 01:12:40
Mark


 
*Mark, Thanks for the compliment! Please email me at batepm@aol.com This thread is getting to be more of a chat between us then anything else. I see little if any interest in it from the rest of the group, we'll save some AA disk space..*

Good idea! E-mail is on the way.

-Mark

 

Idiotic ..., posted on June 9, 2000 at 04:20:24
Rich


 
there are plenty of bad sounding horns, but some horns are some of the best sounding loudspeakers I've ever heard.

 

Rudy Vallee -- pleeease .. (nt), posted on June 9, 2000 at 05:21:01
Randy Bey


 
!!!

 

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