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Resurgence of Cassettes

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Posted on October 6, 2011 at 07:20:25
layman
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 I came across two recent articles documenting the resurgence of Cassette tapes.

http://www.stereophile.com/stephenmejias/the_way_we_listened_then/

http://mattparish.wordpress.com/2010/07/25/cassette-tape-revival-boston-globe-7-23-10/

The Stereophile article takes a flippant tone of "why?" "Why bother with cassettes (vinyl is bad enough)?"

If you read the second article or know anything about the music scene these days, you'll know the answer is quite simple.

Cassettes actually sound better than digital sources. I found this out when I got a cassette player six months ago. The sound quality of the cassettes beats all my digital sources.

Indie bands who are using cassette as a preferred medium actually want you to listen to a whole album rather than download a single song. Cassettes encourage listeners to listen to the whole album.

Moreover, cassettes are cheap and easy to produce.

There you have it. No mystery. Cassettes turn out to be a simple and pragmatic way for indie bands and new artists to promote and promulgate their work. Plus, cassettes sound good. I am glad that I got a player six months ago.

If anyone knows where I can buy pre-recorded cassettes from the pre-digital era (1970-1990), I would like to know about it.

 

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RE: Resurgence of Cassettes, posted on October 6, 2011 at 07:37:50
bobschneider8
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 Many thrift stores have plenty of old cassettes, almost always quite cheap. Mostly trite music from the 1970s and 80s, of course, but you can find decent stuff if you look.

 

RE: Resurgence of Cassettes, posted on October 6, 2011 at 07:41:18
bobschneider8
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 Also, Jazz Record Mart in Chicago has a decent selection of NOS jazz and blues cassettes, mostly for $3 and under

 

RE: Resurgence of Cassettes, posted on October 6, 2011 at 07:57:00
Picklesnapper
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 I'm not sure I would want to buy cassettes from so long ago. There's a good chance the tapes may be just plain shot and not worth pennies. they often just don't do well and lose information over time due to environmental conditions. I got rid of mine about twenty years ago.

 

RE: Resurgence of Cassettes, posted on October 6, 2011 at 08:07:29
jec01
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 The album-as-organic-whole point is IMO extremely compelling, and doesn't get as much attention as it deserves. For me, the biggest problem with digital music is that it encourages listeners to discard music without sufficient listening and without proper regard for musical context.

The sound quality argument IMO is not so compelling. I had some decent cassette players back in the day (including Naks), and I thought they sounded mediocre at best. But different strokes, etc.

The real problem with cassettes is fragility.

Happy listening,

Jim
Happy listening,

Jim

"The passage of my life is measured out in shirts."
- Brian Eno

 

RE: Resurgence of Cassettes, posted on October 6, 2011 at 08:12:36
dancingseamonkey
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 I found that most prerecorded cassettes were pretty crappy back in the day, the cassettes I recorded from my system were much better. I think they were mostly for convenience i.e. car, walkman. Kind of the mp3 of its day.


"Trying is the first step towards failure."
Homer Simpson

 

A simply ridiculous statement, posted on October 6, 2011 at 08:21:23
volunteer
 If all your digital sources are worse than commercially recorded cassettes you have a serious system problem. A high quality cassette deck using the best available tape can sound very, very good. A commercial cassette versus a commercial compact disc aren't even in the same universe. Records, on the other hand.......................

 

There's no accounting for individual tastes..., posted on October 6, 2011 at 08:35:34
genungo
 If you say that cassettes sound better than digital on your system, I have no reason to think it's not true or that you are lying. I still own several dozen cassettes and a cassette player, all in mint condition. Back in the 1980's and early 1990's, I continued to buy cassettes instead of CDs because I still "believed" in analog. Today, my cassettes still sound very good (if slightly compressed and dynamically constricted), and I'm not getting rid of them anytime soon - not until I can find better sounding replacements for them on vinyl or digital, that is...

 

Harder to pirate, as well., posted on October 6, 2011 at 08:36:24
Enophile
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 Nice gimmick, part of the fun.





 

Not at all, posted on October 6, 2011 at 08:42:00
layman
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 Don't be so quick to make assumptions about sound quality.

I too had assumed that cassettes would not sound as good (based on my memory of its sound quality).

Yet, when I got the Nakamichi cassette player six months ago and compared the CD versions of some titles in my collection to the cassette version (miraculously I held onto my cassette collection for 30 years...20 years in storage)...I was in for a surprise.

The cassette versions sounded exceedingly realistic and involving...involving in the way that live music involves. The CD version sounded canned, unrealistic, flat, two-dimensional, and uninvolving. The CD version lacked a fundamental quality of live music that the cassette version posessed...musical involvement...realism for lack of a better word. I was stunned.

Admittedly, my last experience of cassette was on a cheap walkman. Yet, those same tapes in the Nakamichi sounded miraculous (like going back to the original musical event). Digital has never done that for me.

 

Cassette fragility, posted on October 6, 2011 at 08:47:58
layman
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 Those that I have found in thrift stores recently and those in my collection (which are 30 years old) sound just fine.

I don't expect any medium to last forever, but if it still works after 30 years, then its robust enough for my needs.

 

Thanks a bunch-nt, posted on October 6, 2011 at 08:49:28
layman
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 nt

 

I agree - and putting together mixtapes was fun when they were on actual tape..., posted on October 6, 2011 at 08:53:46
musetap
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 otherwise pre-recorded commercial cassette tapes seemed a complete farce.

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Not at all, posted on October 6, 2011 at 08:58:36
volunteer
 I don't know what you're hearing but it was never my experience. Commercial cassettes were high speed duplicated on cheap tape with even cheaper shells, with high-end rolloff, wow and flutter, slow tape speed, much higher noise level and much worse signal to noise. The quality control was abysmal. I'm a record guy but I'm confident my digital will kill any commercially recorded cassette. Those 30-40 year old tapes, in most cases, have much of their already limited high end response ruined by age. The lubricants have dried up in the shells. They sucked when they were knew and have not improved with age. The only commercial cassette, in my experience, worth a damn were those duplicated 1:1 with high quality tape housed in the best shells.

There was a video thread a few years where the poster posited that he preferred the look of VHS tape to DVD. This makes about as much sense.

If you like them that's fine. I simply don't trust the observation. We see what we see and hear what we hear. Enjoy.

 

Of course but what makes you think such observations have anything to do with the media?, posted on October 6, 2011 at 09:09:39
goober58
 It's more about the quality/state of the original recording when it is transfered, the skill of the transfer and the quality (subjective and objective) of the playback components.

This is true with vinyl, CDs and cassettes.

 

RE: Not at all, posted on October 6, 2011 at 09:15:57
goober58
 I agree but it's really not fair to assume everyones experiences with cassettes were as bad as yours and mine.

Some people actually bought nice cassette recorders and recorded from decent vinyl systems and not all commercially produced cassettes suck (just like vinyl and CDs BTW). Given good tape equipment I suppose one could actually get good sound.

In my mind the reality is that good sound is much less expensive for the masses given a digtital media than any analog media.

 

RE: Not at all, posted on October 6, 2011 at 09:21:17
volunteer
 I said the tapes made on a high quality machine with quality tape could sound very, very good.

I don't think that's the point of the OP. I'm not arguing with what he likes or dislikes. I'm just saying that old, pre-recorded cassettes were, in my experience, horrible. In their heyday I used top of the line Nakamichi decks and they were wonderful machines capable of exceptional performance. I never heard an exceptional mass produced cassette.

 

RE: Not at all, posted on October 6, 2011 at 09:41:56
layman
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 "Commercial cassettes were high speed duplicated on cheap tape with even cheaper shells, with high-end rolloff...."

This is one of the areas of greatest difference that I hear when I compare the tape version of a title on the Nak to the CD version. I hear a starkly different sound quality in the treble between the two formats.

To my ears, the cassette treble quality sounds "wetter," more present, more live (closer to the way live instruments sound) while the treble quality of the CD sounds much dryer, starker, white, etched...like some kind of digital simulation of live treble.

I definitely also hear a tiny bit of wow and flutter and tape hiss with the cassette tape but it does not seem to interfere with the quality of the treble, the mid-range fidelity or the quality of musical involvement that the cassette tape provides.

 

Makes me feel a bit sorry....., posted on October 6, 2011 at 09:47:07
Sordidman
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 that you haven't heard any of the many and varied digital sources that are far superior to both vinyl and whatever. There are many different flavors. IMO, I can't see how you can't find one to suit your tastes.



"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

I would not go back to tapes even if you GAVE me a pair of Nak Dragons and a thousand free metal tapes, posted on October 6, 2011 at 10:03:55
Elizabeth
 Cassette sucks. I played with it like most folks. The ONLY good thing about a tape was for the car before CD. And in a portable device before MP3.
Otherwise it is not anything i would look at.
I threw away my cassette stuff, gave awaythe player, and never once had even a small twitch of gee i wish i had that back. Yuck!
So i guess I am just sticking cassette in with 8 track, and laser disc into the been there done that pile to forget.

 

Cassettes!! AHHHHHHH!!! Hissssssssssssssssssss, posted on October 6, 2011 at 10:11:44
Brian A
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 I had a large collection of cassettes back in the seventies and early 80's. Loved them but hated the hiss. I can still remember the first time I listened to a CD. The lack of hiss stunned me, and sold me. To me that hiss was unacceptable, as is the pop and scratch of vinyl.

We'll have to agree to disagree about global warming until the next global cooling scare comes along

 

RE: Makes me feel a bit sorry....., posted on October 6, 2011 at 10:13:32
layman
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 I am a great fan of SACD. Its my absolute favorite digital format. It sounds more realistic to me than any other digital format. It has qualities that cassettes and vinyl, that analog formats cannot match...lack of background noise for instance...multichannel capability also...yet even SACD does not quite match the quality of musical involvement that I hear with the analog sources...it comes close...but its still not quite there when it comes to involvement and realism.

 

What was digital gear you were getting unsatisfying results with?, posted on October 6, 2011 at 10:13:46
carcass93
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 If that's only Marantz universal player listed in your profile, then - please don't take it as an insult - you simply never heard good digital, and your results are not surprising.

Yes, digital requres more attention to the system (power quality, isolation tweaks etc.), but results are rewarding.

 

Yes, that covers it for me. -nt, posted on October 6, 2011 at 10:14:31
soulfood
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 nt

 

LMAO!, posted on October 6, 2011 at 10:19:59
goober58
 More from the longing for the good old days of plastic turntables with nickels on the tonearm and cassette tapes. Sure thing cassettes sound lots better than CDs and AM sounds better than FM too!

 

I've always been into vinyl. Fondest memory of tape was winding & fixing tape after the player ate it! , posted on October 6, 2011 at 10:25:26
goober58
 BTW - CDs were introduced as a replacement for cassettes. Universally almost everyone is better off because of it.

 

Hissssssssssssssssssss? DUDE! Just use the various Dolby switches..., posted on October 6, 2011 at 10:25:40
musetap
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 and remove entire layers from playback frequencies!

Sure it sucks the life out of the music and renders listening to much of it a nearly pointless -task (which listening to music shouldn't be)... but... no hiss!

Not to say I don't appreciate Dolby technologies in theaters...

"Once this was all Black Plasma and Imagination"-Michael McClure



 

RE: Digital gear, posted on October 6, 2011 at 10:26:31
layman
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 I did not say that digital was unsatisfying. I listen to it. I enjoy it, but my cassette player still sounds better. Its more realistic, more involving, more toe-tapping to my ears than any digital player that I have heard.

The point that I am making is not about the gear though, but about the format itself.

I am quite stunned that cassettes can sound as good as they do. They never sounded this good before (but years ago I was only using walkmans and boomboxes). Perhaps the system that I have now brings out the best in analog sources...I don't know for sure...I just like what I am hearing.

 

RE: Some thoughts about cassettes, posted on October 6, 2011 at 10:49:42
M3 lover
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 layman, your post was quite a coincidence. Only yesterday I reviewed in my mind the six cassette decks I owned back in the '70s and '80s. My experiences were like several others here. Most prerecorded tapes were so bad I didn't buy hardly any. But careful recording from clean LPs, and even occasionally from live FM concerts, produced pretty good results. And if recorded at the proper level, hiss was not a problem.

I thought about cassettes again because of two recent experiences. A good friend is a better-than-average guitarist and he has given me a couple of CDs of songs he wrote and recorded. He uses a semi-pro cassette recording system at home, then takes the tapes to a local studio where they transfer them to CDs for him. I know most would say record directly onto a computer but he seems to have a general dislike for the complexity of computers, while being quite satisfied with the quality of his current procedure. (And I'll note his musical ear is good enough to justify owning a Martin and a Taylor guitar.) I also find the CDs to sound very natural and realistic.

The other example came from another friend who is more of a music lover than audiophile. During my last visit he played a couple of commercial cassettes he bought at thrift stores. The sonics quality blew me away. Admittedly these were jazz recordings on minor labels that most likely didn't use a multiple high-speed duplicating process, but still they were old cassettes. I might add here that this guy began producing local jazz concerts so he could tape them (Tascam RtR for that, not cassettes) because of his frustration with the quality of recent commercial recordings -- both digital and analog.

"The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing, if you can fake that you've got it made." Groucho

 

You're an experienced listener here, posted on October 6, 2011 at 11:04:35
Sordidman
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 so I'll accord you more respect.

Please accept my apologies. I didn't mean to imply that you don't know what you're talking about, and/or what you hear. I do think that it is becoming increasingly rare however, (with the sheer numbers of excellent digital playback devices available), that anyone would hold up any other format as being equal. Glad that you are enjoying your music; whatever way you like to experience it.

Cheers,


"Asylums with doors open wide,
Where people had paid to see inside,
For entertainment they watch his body twist
Behind his eyes he says, 'I still exist.'"

 

CDs, posted on October 6, 2011 at 11:23:19
layman
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 "CDs were introduced as a replacement for cassettes. Universally almost everyone is better off because of it."

I am not so sure.

Initially, I loved the convenience of CD. It's definitely slicker and easier to use than cumbersome, fragile cassettes, but the novelty of CDs wore off long ago.

Nowadays, all I care about is sound quality. I can put up with a little inconvenience, if sound quality improves.

I think the CD may have been a step backward.

 

RE: Resurgence of Cassettes, posted on October 6, 2011 at 11:34:08
MylesJ
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 My brother and I still exchange things on cassette. He has a Nak and I have a good Aiwa. I still use cassettes in the Jeep because that CD player kills CDs. It is really that I live in the woods on a dirt road. The dirt gets into the CD rollers and then the CDs skip.

 

RE: Not at all, posted on October 6, 2011 at 12:04:31
rbolaw
 I'm not going to argue or disagree with you, this is a matter of taste. However, if you like cassettes, IMHO you should heed volunteer's advice and make your own rather than buy used or even unused commercial ones.

The cassettes I made myself with high-quality TDK or Maxell metal tape on my Nakamichi deck were vastly superior to the commercial ones I had, and I can't think of any exceptions.

 

Dolby A is not so bad. (nt), posted on October 6, 2011 at 12:07:23
genungo
 .

 

RE: Not at all, posted on October 6, 2011 at 12:27:06
layman
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 "The cassettes I made myself with high-quality TDK or Maxell metal tape on my Nakamichi deck were vastly superior to the commercial ones I had, and I can't think of any exceptions."

I really like the sound quality of pre-recorded tapes on the Nak, so if making my own (tapes) would result in "vastly superior" sound quality...well, I am in for a treat.


 

RE: Some thoughts about cassettes, posted on October 6, 2011 at 12:31:19
layman
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 Like your friend, I am more a music lover than a gear head.

I am not at all surprised at the number of music professionals who are switching to cassettes on the basis of sound quality.

 

Have you considered . . . , posted on October 6, 2011 at 12:35:37
Langdell
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 . . . getting a turntable and making your own tapes from vinyl? It's easier to find records from 1970-1990 in good condition than cassette tapes. And that would give you the best of both worlds.

When I was a teen, for a year or two I bought music mostly on cassettes, for listening to mostly on Walkman or boom box. Cassettes were also the in thing at the time--CDs were around, but a CD player was still an expensive luxury item. But then I concluded that records lasted longer and sounded better (granted, I've never owned a high-end cassette deck; then again, my turntable at the time was also pretty lo-fi) and that I could make tapes from records but I couldn't make records from tapes. So I started buying vinyl again and just taping all my LPs for Walkman listening. From then on, vinyl has been my preferred medium for purchasing music on.

BTW, I really appreciate your point about cassettes encouraging the listener to listen to albums all the way through. Vinyl, of course, does that too. I have long thought that one of the downsides of the digital revolution is that the ease of shuffling singles around has led to the decline of the concept of an album as a skillfully (when done right) arranged complete program of songs. The CD started this trend, and digital downloads accelerated it.

"Record Are Your Best Entertainment Value!"

 

The Sony CD walkman sounds better into a decent system than 95% of all TTs and cassette players ever made!, posted on October 6, 2011 at 12:39:52
goober58
 Don't get me wrong I'm a big fan of vinyl.

 

As a point of reference..., posted on October 6, 2011 at 12:50:36
E-Stat
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 the reason why most commercial cassettes sound dull is due to the replication process. When you double the speed of the transport, you also double the required bandwidth. While that practice reduces the writing time, it requires that the duplicator's heads have twice the bandwidth of normal ones. They don't. The top octave ends up missing in action.

rw

 

RE: Resurgence of Cassettes, posted on October 6, 2011 at 12:59:45
kerr
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 >If anyone knows where I can buy pre-recorded cassettes from the pre-digital era (1970-1990), I would like to know about it.<

Those cassettes are probably long dead. A pre-recorded cassette probably has a shelf-life of about 50 plays before the highs are leeched off and the thing starts to squeak.

I still play my home-recorded cassettes on occasion and they still sound very good. I also buy new cassettes, as some artists (usually indie artists, as you said) choose this medium for their new recordings. More and more are doing so, but it isn't because the sound is more "lifelike" or "better" - it's usually because the medium adds some artifact that the artists find pleasing. Often that artifact is a layer of grunge that doesn't appear on CD.

 

Very nice post! (nt), posted on October 6, 2011 at 13:02:13
kerr
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 nt

 

RE: Have you considered . . . , posted on October 6, 2011 at 13:03:51
layman
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 Yes...I was so pleased with cassettes that I bought a turntable too...just to hear if what I heard with cassettes was limited to cassettes or something shared with other analog sources.

Its shared. I really like the sound of the turntable too. It shares the same kind of realism and musical involvement as the cassette player.

In addition to saving a small collection of cassettes for 30 years, I also saved a small collection of vinyl records. Now, I can play my collections again.

After 20 years using digital formats (and accepting the marketing line that digital was progress), I was not at all expecting the sound quality of these analog relics to trump that of digital, but to my surprise, the analog formats have qualities that digital lacks...qualities that I hear with live music...qualities that I miss when I listen to (digital) recordings.

My cassette collection includes many recordings that I made (30 years ago) of vinyl records that I borrowed from family, friends and the library. The recordings sound amazingly good....even better than when I first made them (my playback system has improved since then). I had forgotten that analog sounded so good (or maybe I just never knew in the first place).

 

Hey!, posted on October 6, 2011 at 13:07:58
kerr
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 I stand corrected in my post above.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Cool!

 

RE: As a point of reference..., posted on October 6, 2011 at 13:13:46
rbolaw
 Thanks for that explanation, it makes sense. I once had a cassette deck that let you record and play back at 3-3/4 ips rather than the standard 1-7/8. Of course, you could only get 45 minutes out of a 90 minute cassette, and you couldn't play the tape on anything else. The sound was slightly better, but not enough to compensate for the drawbacks.

 

RE: As a point of reference..., posted on October 6, 2011 at 13:15:47
layman
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 I am hearing amazing treble detail and realism with my pre-recorded cassettes so it would appear that (like most mediums) they are not all created equal.

The only dull ones that I have come across so far were a few of those that I made myself (30 years ago). Not sure what happened there. My other recordings sound just fine and as live and present as the pre-recorded ones. Cassette recording was never easy for me...so many knobs to twiddle...always seemed like some kind of black art.

 

RE: Resurgence of Cassettes, posted on October 6, 2011 at 13:20:57
layman
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 I know I must have played some of my old tapes alot more than that and I made them decades ago, but they sure sound good now. The pre-recorded ones sound even better.

 

I am fairly certain that the majority ..., posted on October 6, 2011 at 13:24:34
reelsmith.
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 ...of pre-recorded cassettes were made on inferior tape as well. A tech at Nakamichi told me they wore heads out faster than high-quality blank tapes.

I never heard a pre-recorded tape that sounded nearly as good as any that I made myself.

I still enjoy my tapes ...30 years later.

Dean.


reelsmith's axiom: Its going to be used equipment when I sell it, so it may as well be used equipment when I buy it.


 

One thing is clear..., posted on October 6, 2011 at 13:26:19
mkuller
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 ...you need a new high end CD player.

 

That's a different scenario, posted on October 6, 2011 at 13:55:53
E-Stat
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 When recording and playback speeds match, then you typically get high end improvements rather than restrictions. I once owned a Sony TC-850 open reel that ran at either 7 1/2 or 15 ips which had no trouble keeping up.

rw

 

wow. i am speechless. To each thier own i would respond. nt, posted on October 6, 2011 at 14:50:48
Elizabeth
 .

 

RE: Resurgence of Cassettes, posted on October 6, 2011 at 14:57:34
must
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 I love cassettes. So much easier to make live location recordings using the Sony TC-D5M or the Sony Professional WM-D3. Use Nakamichi Dragon and 480 for duping.

 

Even considering the hiss, don't you find cassettes are inherently much more musical than CDs? nt, posted on October 6, 2011 at 15:51:29
geoffkait
 nt

 

I disagree with the premise that cassettes promote.., posted on October 6, 2011 at 16:17:55
Snyder
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 the listening of an album all the way through better than CD. Other than perhaps reel to reel, CD is the champ and one of the reasons I listen to mostly CD.

Back in the day, most commercial cassettes were set up like the Lp, a side A and a side B. You still have to flip the cassette just like the LP. Perhaps this is a major step forward for the attention span challenged mp3 crowd. Cassettes also make it difficult to skip around from track to track just by their nature. However, I do have a Sony cassette player that searches by looking for the gap between songs, although the gap has to be large enough to find at fast forward or rewind speed.

I mostly used my cassettes for transferring LPs to listen in the car or to provide music at parties or in between sets when I was doing sound.

A question for the Nak people. Didn't the Naks, or maybe just the Dragons, have a slightly different track spacing on the heads that precluded playing cassettes recorded on them on other machines? I kind of remember something like that that kept me from buying a Nak (other than the price at the time).

Thanks

 

Heck NOOOOO, posted on October 6, 2011 at 16:28:19
Brian A
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Posts: 6206
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 For some reason, the hiss of cassettes just drove me mad. I'd sit there listening to the music, dreading the quiet passages and God forbid, the pause between songs. This aversion to hiss seemed to bother me more and more. At the time all I had was Dolby B which helped, but it was still there.

I already had written off vinyl, the pops and scratches simply were unacceptable to me. I have heard a top quality vinyl system, but I found myself cringing at each minute pop.

I know it is just me, but the silence of CD's is far preferable. SACD gave me everything.


We'll have to agree to disagree about global warming until the next global cooling scare comes along

 

That's true, posted on October 6, 2011 at 16:41:16
rbolaw
 A 3-3/4 ips cassette is like a 45 rpm record or your 15 ips reel tape- it should give better performance. But at least for the cassette, I felt it wasn't worth it.

 

Yes..........., posted on October 6, 2011 at 17:44:16
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37478
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 In fact, I find Pat Metheny's "As Falls Wichita.....", recorded from vinyl to cassette, played back on a Walkman, connects with me better than any time I've ever heard it directly from a digital source. Even a good digital source.

 

I agree, posted on October 6, 2011 at 17:46:56
Frank E
Audiophile

Posts: 726
Joined: May 20, 2000
 After reading through layman's posts it's apparent he hasn't heard a good digital rig. I've been through the cassette thing, and although they have a smoothness in the treble that is typical of analog playback, I've found that good digital does treble, presence and everything else that cassette does. In no way do i want to take away from his enjoyment, but his conclusion is flawed about cassette being better than digital. . . in every way. However, it would probably cost him 10x as much as he has invested in cassette for good digital.

 

Comparing Analog Cassettes to Digitized Recordings......., posted on October 6, 2011 at 17:51:07
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37478
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 Digitized recordings are a lot more transparent..................

Digitized recordings have a lot less noise..........

Digitized recordings have more-extended highs..........

Digitized recordings have more dynamic range..........

Digitized recordings have much better speed accuracy and speed stability...............

And digitized recordings are a LOT more durable............ Infinitely more durable................

BUT...........

Analog cassettes to me sound more like real music.............

And apparently, other people are starting to realize the same thing...... The noise, durability issues, and demonstrably poorer objective performance notwithstanding.

 

RE: Dolby A is not so bad. (nt), posted on October 6, 2011 at 17:54:54
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37478
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 I think the limited dynamic capabilities of analog cassette tape rendered Dolby A unusable for that format. I don't recall any cassette deck having Dolby A. Dolby B, C, HX, and other lesser products, but not Dolby A.

 

You sure you're not thinking of Elcassettes ?, posted on October 6, 2011 at 18:54:06
mark111
Audiophile

Posts: 4699
Joined: April 12, 2002
 Another Sony blunder.
enjoy,
mark

 

RE: Comparing Analog Cassettes to Digitized Recordings......., posted on October 6, 2011 at 19:10:13
layman
Audiophile

Posts: 559
Location: Washington, D.C.
Joined: August 8, 2007
 Thank your for posting the link to the earlier thread.

John from Seattle said this ten years ago:

"To me, anyway, CD's tend to sound much flatter, more 2 D than vinyl, more or most if it's analogue counterparts, sound quality not withstanding. Even the old venerable cassette will render much of the soundstage debth, but unfortunately not all that vinyl can produce. Cassettes, by and large, sound compressed, though not a bad version of it. I find that cassettes, using good quality tape, on a decent, well maintained deck, recorded well, can sound quite good-given it's limitations."

I am now hearing exactly what he described. Thank you all for leading the way. You were all ahead of your time. It has taken me ten years to catch up and I never would have caught up if I had not held onto my cassette and vinyl collections.

There were so many times (over the last twenty years) where I wanted to jettison what I thought of as dead weight (I have moved all over the country in the last twenty years but somehow those cassettes and records stuck with me). I am so glad that I kept the collection.

 

RE: Dolby A is not so bad. (nt), posted on October 6, 2011 at 19:35:40
genungo
 Whoops, you are right - my tape deck only has Dolby B and C, not A...

 

I believe you are correct. Thanks. nt, posted on October 6, 2011 at 19:38:15
Snyder
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Location: S.E. PA
Joined: February 6, 2011
 ..

 

Ah,.. No!, posted on October 6, 2011 at 20:47:00
DustyC
Audiophile

Posts: 997
Joined: November 4, 2000
 I have had a couple of 3 head cassette decks from Sony, Yamaha, and did a comparision with some Naks.
Great for the car? Yes.
Great to give to friends? Yes.
Great for mix tapes? Yes.
Great for audio quality? Yes.
Great for reference audio quality?
Ah,.. No.

 

You've summed up my feelings completely n/t, posted on October 6, 2011 at 21:29:42
panhead
Audiophile

Posts: 920
Location: chicago
Joined: January 20, 2007
 n/t

 

My 1995 Buick Regal with a cassette... (Hey, it's got DynaRide), posted on October 6, 2011 at 21:55:51
Byrd69
Audiophile

Posts: 2964
Location: East Syracuse, New York
Joined: August 23, 2004
 gives me no reason at all to go to anything different.

Jean Pierre Guillou sounds phenominal....as do my original Dead show tapes,
recorded from 1973-1978!!!!! (Passaic 76, Cornell 77, etc.)


Your interest may vary but the results will be same. (Byrd 2020)

I can't compete with the dead. (Buck W. 2010)

Cowards can't be heroes. (Byrd 2017)

Why don't catfish have kittens? (Moe Howard 1937)

 

But what really are you talking about?, posted on October 6, 2011 at 22:13:16
goober58
 That observation may have little to nothing to do with media.

 

It Has To Do With............, posted on October 6, 2011 at 22:55:03
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37478
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 "That observation may have little to nothing to do with media."

I think it has to do with the absence of RFI generation during cassette playback.

 

The oxidizing of the Metal Oxide should be done by now; ^ ) (nt), posted on October 7, 2011 at 03:34:45
Drumhead
Audiophile

Posts: 246
Location: Atl, GA
Joined: May 24, 2009
 nt

 

A little bit of 'dirt'…, posted on October 7, 2011 at 04:07:05
b.l.zeebub
Audiophile

Posts: 9361
Location: 52deg 28'N,1deg56'W
Joined: April 17, 2006
 …makes things sound more 'natural' I always found.
Digital is clearly a cleaner way of recording and storing music but it may actually be a bit too clean.

Back in the '80s when recording studios got digital effects units everybody at first thought fantastic at last we have good, clean delay where the last repetition has as much trebles as the first only to find out that it actually sounds much more natural if the treble decays with each repeat and distortion rises.

I think we have a similar situation here where all the hiss and distortion of the narrow cassette tape create an illusion of depth. I'm pretty sure that the master tape (if it wasn't recorded to computer) sounds a lot more like the cd than the cassette.

If I listen critically complete silence between songs or even within a song bothers me greatly as a little residual hiss helps maintain the illusion of space (I listen with my eyes closed, the illusion of space does not work at all with my eyes open) while complete silence leads to the collapsing of the spatial illusion and my brain has to rebuild it again when the music restarts.
I find this very fatiguing in the long run.

 

Hmmmm.., no wonder they sound so good... , posted on October 7, 2011 at 04:35:28
genungo
 Old cassettes are like the audio equivalent of aged cheese!

 

RE: It Has To Do With............, posted on October 7, 2011 at 09:54:30
goober58
 Todd all I can say is that it's not possible that the CD generates RFI.


 

RE: Resurgence of Cassettes, posted on October 7, 2011 at 09:56:04
pictureguy
Audiophile

Posts: 22597
Location: SoCal
Joined: October 19, 2008
 back in the early '80s, I was the first kid on the block to own a CD player. What could be more natural than to make a few cassettes for auto use?
These cassettes sounded orders of magnitude better than any cassette anyone had. So much better, in fact, that I feel I am responsible for at least a half dozen CD player sales. The 3/4 wit kid next door had big bucks in car stereo which was blown away by my STOCK cassette player and 4" speakers in a HONDA! He was ashamed that all it took was a good cassette properly recorded. All factory cassettes I heard were rolled off in the highs, no matter how you manipulated the Dolby controls and tape type.
And that was using a 14 bit philips player sold here under the Magnevox label.
Too much is never enough

 

Why don't you record a CD and report back to us how the cassette sounds?, posted on October 7, 2011 at 10:41:30
John Marks
 That might indicate something, or perhaps not. But more data is usually good.

BTW, I had several CDs that I thought were a bit difficult to listen to, but I think I have discovered that the fault was in the playback and not perhaps the original recording. The Bricasti M1 DAC is very expensive ($8000), but it makes some of my oldest CDs sound amazing, and, yes, quite like analog, when it comes to the better CDs. Bricasti claims that low jitter allows fast slew rates. I wrote about the Bricasti in my August column; in the RCL listing, JA stated that he will do a Follow Up with measurements.

JM

 

20 years worth, posted on October 7, 2011 at 11:12:45
layman
Audiophile

Posts: 559
Location: Washington, D.C.
Joined: August 8, 2007
 Its easier turning lead into gold than it is to make digital sound like analog.

We've been hearing the same refrain for twenty years with regard to digital...just spend more money. If you spend more money, digital will sound right...it will sound like analog...thanks to the latest breakthrough...fast slew rates, low jitter, upsampling, no digital filtering, brickwall filtering, something in between, apodizing filters, 14-bit dacs, 16-bit dacs, 20-bit dacs, 24-bit dacs, 32-bit dacs and so on and so on ...and to my ears after twenty years of these "breakthroughs," digital is still no closer to souding like analog...so I take the latest claim of "it sounds quite like analog" with a hefty grain of salt.

 

But I've heard the Bricasti, and you have not., posted on October 7, 2011 at 12:23:41
John Marks
 In my experience (and I was back in the early 1980s, a founding contributing editor of DIGITAL AUDIO magazine), the Bricasti M1 is a breakthrough product. I think it is the best digital I have ever heard.

My suggestion stands: dub a CD to analog cassette, and get back to us.

JM

 

RE: 20 years worth, posted on October 7, 2011 at 12:28:38
Chazro
Audiophile

Posts: 178
Location: W. Palm Bch, FL
Joined: March 14, 2008
 Recording compilations is part of this hobby that I've always enjoyed. A Nakamichi deck was one of the 1st "audiophile" purchases I ever made but even prior to buying it I had been recording comps. The ONLY commercial cassette I ever bought was a Miles Davis comp (still have it somewhere!) that sounded great but in general, commercial product truly sucked. To this day I still record comps on CD, just did one last night! Reading this thread's got me wanting to dig out all the boxes (100's of cassettes, all home-grown!) and give 'em a listen. While I'd agree with the OP that cassettes CAN sound great, I have to question exactly what music he's listening to that sounds superior. Frankly, I think the brother simply needs to have his ears checked (seriously dude, I'm not trying to insult you or anything)!!

 

RE: Resurgence of Cassettes, posted on October 7, 2011 at 13:25:42
michaelhigh
Audiophile

Posts: 839
Location: midwest
Joined: August 18, 2010
 Yay cassettes! I have over 1000 cassettes, 95% recorded from LP's during my various stints working in used record stores. They serve as an invaluable resourse of music that has never been , maybe never will be, and even will never be available on CD's or digital sources. I have 8 tracks, and although they could never be considered reference sources, still give enjoyable listening to me through a large variety of better-than-average vintage gear. My cassettes are indispensible for hoarding Grateful Dead shows cheaply (I have 150 or so shows thanks to David Gans) and I still master my original music from a Tascam 8 channel cassette multitrack studio, and I love the fact that I don't have to file and save every EQ change I make just to make sure I can reassemble the completed versions of my songs like some must do with computer recording. The only thing I regret going analog with my originals is not being able to cut and paste a la Pro Tools. Chopping songs is a lot of fun and a great exercise in itself, but I still enjoy recording originals in the analog domain. I enjoy recording originals in digital when I can afford an engineer as well. I enjoy everything, I guess I'm easy to please, my hearing is good, and unless it's pure garbage I can tolerate it for a time. 45's are about the only thing I can not justify collecting, as cool as the labels and sleeves are, and I still have a big hand full of those too! Vive la diference, and there's room for nearly everything in my collection, which consists of 1000+ CD's and 13,000 digital files as well.

 

I like audiophile Cassettes the best, posted on October 7, 2011 at 16:20:46
Teresa
 especially ones duplicated in real time (1:1) on Metal or chrome tape. The Nakamichi Reference Series which included Sheffield Lab and Telarc recordings was excellent. The audiophile cassette version of Sheffield Lab's "The Missing Link" played on my Nakamichi deck was audible superior (in my system) to my Direct to Disc LP especially in the bass.

I also loved the MFSL High Fidelity Cassettes, In Sync Labs, Audible Illusions and other audiophile cassettes.

Even some of the standard prerecorded cassettes sound excellent on a Nakamichi especially those at 70μs EQ. Such as Telarc's own cassettes recorded on TDK SA tape at 70μs EQ. Most were classical but a few Jazz titles and a few Erich Kunzel and the Cincinnati Pops as well. I compared two Telarc recordings "Spies: By Way Of The World" and "Chiller/Erich Kunzel" in both 70μs TDK SA cassette and CD. The Nakamichi cassette deck was the 480 (Retail $400) the CD playback was via the Audio Alchemy Digital Drive System III transport and the Adcom GDA-700 HDCD DAC (combined Retail $1,700). The cassettes were clearly superior and didn't suffer from digitalis or any of the common digital nasties. The amazing thing is these are 44.1k digital recordings yet the cassette version sounded better to my ears.

With Telarc it is important you get the 70μs rather than the 120μs versions which I think sound awful. Unfortunately Telarc released most of their Jazz cassettes and some classical cassettes on TDK Chrome or Ferric tape at 120μs in order to make them compatible with cassette walkmans that do not have a 70μs Chrome/Metal setting.

Interesting quote
"We are considering a series on audio cassette for those who are not able to get an SACD player at this time. Audio cassette, in spite of its limitations, seems to retain more of the soul of the original recording than CD." Mark Levinson

This was in regard to his Red Rose Music SACDs which did not have a CD layer as he did not want anyone listening to his 2 Track 30 IPS analog recordings at 16/44.1k resolution and he felt that single-layer SACD sounded superior to hybrid SACDs. So he was considering offering an option for those who do not have an SACD player. Never happened though.

 

The dreaded digital black, posted on October 7, 2011 at 16:33:01
Teresa
 This doesn't have to happen BTW. All is needed is room ambiance in-between songs rather than fading to digital black. Some audiophile recordings do this in the digital domain, just listen in-between tracks to a Reference Recordings HDCD, you can hear the room as it does not fade to digital black. And yes one has to record more ambiance to equal ambiance + tape hiss to maintain the illusion of listening to music in real space.

Thanks for revealing yet another reason for listening fatigue in digital recordings. Digital black should be banned.

 

RE: Not at all, posted on October 7, 2011 at 16:40:43
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 "I never heard an exceptional mass produced cassette."

Not my experience.

Some commercially produced cassettes have excellent sound when played in my Nak CR-7. I have transfered dozens to digital and they have better sound potential than the 44/16 digital format is capable of. Sure there are bad ones out there and the cassettes can easily wear out, but as to poor sound quality this is not my usual experience.

Note: it a cassette is left in a car then it can become hopeless quickly. But then, this can happen to CD-R's as the dye is heat sensitive.






Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Not at all, posted on October 7, 2011 at 16:59:56
Regor Ladan
Audiophile

Posts: 2156
Location: Flushing, NY
Joined: August 28, 2010
 In my opinion, if both CD and pre-recorded cassette are produced to the BEST the medium allows, the CD will be far, far, far more representative of the master tape.

Can you ever remember "audiophile" or boutique mastered cassettes?

 

Pre-digital era would be prior to 1978, posted on October 7, 2011 at 17:22:10
Teresa
 In 1980 Delos came out with their line of real-time duplicated (1:1) cassettes using metal tape from their 50kHz soundstream masters.

Also about that time Audible Illusions started their line of real-time duplicated cassettes from digital masters. Many of them were very impressive.

In the classical world most recording companies were digital by 1980 and perhaps 1985 or so for rock music. Many rock musicians and even audiophile record companies rebelled and continued to record in analog, some until present day.

So to answer your question about pre-recorded cassettes from the pre-digital era (1970-1978 or so) the cassettes usually have pasted on labels rather than silk-screened. The best early cassettes I've ever heard are the Advent Process CR/70 chromium dioxide which were duplicated slow speed (4:1). They licensed recordings from Connoisseur Society, Pathe Marconi EMI, Unicorn, Nonesuch, and even some original recordings of their own. They are from the early 1970's and still hold up well today and were released before digital was invented so they are pure analog.

All of the In Sync Lab cassettes were also pure analog. Most of the Direct to Tape cassettes were also analog and I think most of the MFSL cassettes.

 

RE: Not at all, posted on October 7, 2011 at 17:25:19
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 "Can you ever remember "audiophile" or boutique mastered cassettes?"

Yes. I had some. They are in a box somewhere, perhaps I'll get around to digitizing them some day. The dealer who sold me my Nak CR-7a sold these back when.

The main problems I've encountered with the dozens of cassette tapes that I have transferred to digital (about 1/3 are duplicating master tapes, 1/3 hand duplicated low run copies and 1/3 commercially duplicated copies) are hiss and dropouts. Apart from these faults, they are excellent. I listen to these directly out of my CR-7 or from an 88/24 digital transfer of these. Ultimately, I down sample the restored and edited 88/24 files to 44/16 and it is usually obvious at this point that quality is being lost. From this I conclude that, at least in some dimensions, cassette tape is higher resolution than 44/16 PCM. Neither cassette tape or 44/16 PCM can give a 15 IPS master tape much of a run for the money, of course. It is generally possible to eliminate the remaining cassette problems (hiss and dropouts) through careful use of audio restoration software.



Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Not at all, posted on October 7, 2011 at 17:35:51
Regor Ladan
Audiophile

Posts: 2156
Location: Flushing, NY
Joined: August 28, 2010
 Well that is news to me...interesting.

I agree that cassettes can be an excellent medium and were one of my favorites in their heyday.

I agree about 15 ips reel. No comparison, actually.

I disagree that they are higher resolution than 16/44. CERTAINLY not in the bass.

I just pulled out my trust Kenwood from the closet with to archive some tapes at 96/24. Can you recommend any basic maintenance before I start?

Demag? Clean heads?

 

I'll gladly take the free Nak Dragons and a thousand free metal tapes, posted on October 7, 2011 at 17:53:15
Teresa
 All I need are some great pre-recorded audiophile cassettes, they are hard to find and sometimes sell for way too much. I need a time machine.

 

RE: Not at all, posted on October 7, 2011 at 17:58:56
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 Good 15 IPS tapes have higher resolution the the treble than 44/16 digital. I don't know about the bass. I think this depends on the set up and EQ. Most of the music I listen to is somewhat light in the low bass, so I place more emphasis on mid range and highs if a choice has to be made. CD can go all the way down to DC, of course.

Clean and demag the heads of course. In addition there will be rubber parts that become brittle with age, e.g. belts and idler pulleys. These may need to be replaced. In addition, if the machine hasn't be run for a long time there may be lubrication problems. And if it has, there may be wear problems. There can also be head alignment problems if the machine hasn't had continuous loving care. Some machines may require adjustment of playback speed. If you are going to use the machine for recording (why in this day and age is beyond me) then there are other calibration items to check.

I started out by pulling my Nak CR-7 out of the box and listening to it. It made a squeaky noise and would shut down in the middle of playback. Otherwise it sounded good. A little Googling turned up the likely cause: a bad idler wheel, and once I got up the necessary courage this was fixed by a $10 part and a half hour's work.




Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

Maybe this is it...., posted on October 7, 2011 at 18:24:22
Snyder
Audiophile

Posts: 131
Location: S.E. PA
Joined: February 6, 2011
 ..

 

Audiophile cassettes were usually duplicated in real time (1:1) on Metal or chrome tape, posted on October 7, 2011 at 18:27:59
Teresa
 From analog master tapes
MFSL - Real Time duplication on BASF chrome
Sound Ideas Master tapes - Real Time duplication on Metal tape
In Sync Labs - Real Time duplication on TDK SA-X
Direct to Tape Recording Company - Real Time duplication on Agfa chrome tape
Aesthetic Audio - Real Time duplication on BASF chrome

From digital master tapes
Audible Illusions - Real Time duplication on Metal tape
Delos - Real Time duplication on Metal tape from 50k soundstream masters

There were others as well that I don't remember now. Back in the 1970's I collected ONLY audiophile cassettes, no other format and no commercial cassettes and had a collection of about 150. I sold them and my first Nakamichi deck to raise the money to buy the Sony CDP-101, the biggest mistake I've ever made in my entire life.

 

RE: Not at all, posted on October 7, 2011 at 18:36:05
Regor Ladan
Audiophile

Posts: 2156
Location: Flushing, NY
Joined: August 28, 2010
 Sorry...I mangled my response..I agree with you about about 15 ips being BETTER than 44/16.

In my opinion 44.1 khz and 16 bits should ONLY be used to fold down higher resolution recordings, not as a native recording format.

Luckily, this robust machine is in pretty good shape. Speed is ok.
No squeaky parts.

Oh, no, I will not be recording with it, just digitizing old tapes.

I used to by my head cleaners and demag units from hifi shops. Then from Radio Shack.

Any particular ones you can recommend?

 

RE: Audiophile cassettes were usually duplicated in real time (1:1) on Metal or chrome tape, posted on October 7, 2011 at 18:43:28
Regor Ladan
Audiophile

Posts: 2156
Location: Flushing, NY
Joined: August 28, 2010
 Geez, I never knew.

I wonder how many units of any of those titles were sold.

I remember when the Nak Dragon was the hottest thing around.

 

RE: It Has To Do With............, posted on October 7, 2011 at 21:59:38
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37478
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 “Todd all I can say is that it's not possible that the CD generates RFI.â€

The CD itself does not generate the RFI. The active digital circuitry in the CD player, transport, and/or DAC is what generates the RFI........ This can be demonstrated by placing an AM radio near an active CD player, DAC, or computer.

On the other hand, active analog cassette playback circuitry does not generate RFI.

 

15 ips Analog Tape is Very Clean Too............., posted on October 7, 2011 at 22:01:19
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37478
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 .....But I don't hear the negative "fatiguing" effects at all.

 

It's Very Rare............, posted on October 7, 2011 at 22:05:04
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37478
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 The vast majority of digital recordings are recorded with "dither" to avoid "digital black"......... And most "lossy" digital compression algorithms add dither noise to mitigate losses in low-level resolution.

 

RE: Why don't you record a CD and report back to us how the cassette sounds?, posted on October 7, 2011 at 23:44:23
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37478
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 Wouldn't be shocked if one preferred the cassette....... The CD played directly has active digital circuitry generating RFI. The cassette, even though recorded with the CD, has no RFI-generating digital circuitry active during playback.

 

Todd your observation is correct, posted on October 8, 2011 at 01:41:23
Teresa
 Just venture over to "Tape Trail" and you find many tape CDs to cassette to smooth them out and make them listenable.

 

RE: Todd your observation is correct, posted on October 8, 2011 at 02:19:40
Todd Krieger
Audiophile

Posts: 37478
Location: SW United States
Joined: November 2, 2000
 If it weren't for attaining a CD rig relatively low in RFI generation (found by fortunate aural discovery), I might be doing exactly that. Although I'd probably use an open reel deck, to better support the full bandwidth and dynamics of the CD.

 

RE: Not at all, posted on October 8, 2011 at 06:48:27
Tony Lauck
Audiophile

Posts: 13629
Location: Vermont
Joined: November 12, 2007
 I've been using cleaning fluid and and other supplies from American Recorder. You might post on the Tape Asylum.

Tony Lauck

"Diversity is the law of nature; no two entities in this universe are uniform." - P.R. Sarkar

 

RE: Not at all, posted on October 8, 2011 at 07:42:53
Regor Ladan
Audiophile

Posts: 2156
Location: Flushing, NY
Joined: August 28, 2010
 Thanks!

 

"a CD rig relatively low in RFI generation", posted on October 8, 2011 at 08:17:22
rick_m
Audiophile

Posts: 6230
Location: Oregon
Joined: August 11, 2005
 How do you know that?

Rick

 

RE: Todd your observation is correct, posted on October 8, 2011 at 09:55:13
wirewizard
Manufacturer

Posts: 836
Location: N.E. Ohio
Joined: July 3, 2009
 I tape CD's to cassette and even MP3's to cassette and they sound much better.
I do it all in the name of music!!!

 

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