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Pioneer PL-70LII

86.50.47.87
Posted on September 10, 2010 at 10:01:27
jmlattu
Audiophile

Posts: 13
Location: Finland
Joined: September 10, 2010
 I am very interested in the PL-70LII turntable and would like to know anything about this marvelous looking machine, especially owner's opinions and tips are most welcome.

If I lived in Japan I'd get one straight away but since I live in Finland there's the shipping & VAT + customs tax to be considered of.
This leads to a question: is it worth it?

 

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RE: Pioneer PL-70LII, posted on November 19, 2010 at 08:22:12
Batard
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Joined: November 18, 2010
 You'll have to excuse my failing to check my facts carefully. The display model I have is the Pioneer PL 570 and not the PL70. So I hope I didn't get anyone overly excited.

 

RE: Pioneer PL-70LII, posted on November 19, 2010 at 07:50:43
Batard
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Joined: November 18, 2010
 Incidentally all of the items that are marked inside the case are in English -actually backwards English as one looks at the mirrors and the signs are written in English on the bottom of the table and you can read them in English that way. It almost appears that that the four or five or so boards were placed at the bottom of the display case but by looking carefully, one can see that they are right under the table and the mirror is a kind of magicians trick to allow the customer to see the components inside that are right under the table. Incidentally there are quite a number of labels inside like phase lock system or something similar. I'd go take a look but I'd rather post the pictures and then everyone can see things clearly as long as the flash on my camera doesn't have trouble with the mirrors. But the labeling is all in English so either this table was going to marketed in America and these display cases were made and sent to America and then abandoned or else some of these tables were actually sold in select dealerships. But this display model was definitely a marketing device that was made for the the American market as a way of marketing the table here. Anyone who has looked inside most turntables made even today will see that this table is loaded with electronics which is never done today. So the Japanese were definitely spending quite a sum of money on marketing their expertise in Audio in unique ways in those days. And they did make some impressive turntables.

 

RE: Pioneer PL-70LII, posted on November 19, 2010 at 07:32:03
Batard
Audiophile

Posts: 3
Location: Central Pennsylvania
Joined: November 18, 2010
 I've got something even rarer than that. I've got a Pioneer PL-70 display model that was used at dealerships to show the customer, by way of mirrors, what cas contained inside and many individual conponent systems are displayed by way of the mirror system. The device is still all encased in a Plexiglass case although the person I bought it from did enhanced the system somewhat by wiring it up so that one can actually play records on it. This is the rarest of the rare and probably was pulled from dealer displays fairly quickly once the new year came and the item was pulled from dealerships and new models were sent in to replace these "old" ones. I haven't noticed if it is model I or a II but the one I have is absolutely mint and original except for the wiring that the guy who sold it to me did several years ago so that one can could play music on it. And of course the toplate where the buttons are on the top aren't there so one could see inside the system. Many of the knobs on the top are inoperable as then one could not see inside the unit as clearly. It is quite an unusual item. I wonder if anyone remembers seeing one of these in a store? There couldn't have been that many of these made as I understand that was for upscale dealers only. I may sell it one day but I'm still in collecting mode right now and it's probably the neatest looking display item in my collection room. It set me back a pretty penny to buy it but the value and can only go u in value over time. I keep it in the box it came to me in most of the time as I don't want sunlight to fade the plexiglass. I'll get some pictures of it posted sooner or later but right now the motherboard on my computer system that reads photo and video cards is not working due to a faulty motherboard and I can't upload pictures until I get it operating again fairly quickly.

 

RE: Pioneer PL-70LII, posted on October 7, 2010 at 07:31:28
rudeophile
Audiophile

Posts: 12
Location: midwest
Joined: October 6, 2010
 i am so ignorant about vintage pioneer tables does anyone know liket the top 5 or so?

 

It is a very nice table, posted on September 10, 2010 at 16:07:58
travisty
Audiophile

Posts: 1368
Location: Tokyo
Joined: April 2, 2003
 Among used tables available in Japan, it is one of the very nice 'not quite a "mega-table" but way better than entry level' tables.

There is a certain amount of implied trickle-down from the P3 and P10 tables Pioneer made under the Exclusive label (and this is especially apparent looking at the arms).

The PL-70LII is better-sounding than the PL-50LII level, in part due to plinth weight, in part due to better motor/power supply I think. I expect the arm is made a bit better (and it is longer than the 50-series arm) but I never opened up the arm on the PL-70LII which passed through.

It has a nice coreless motor. It has a quite decent arm. The isolation footers work OK.
If I wanted to own one of these for the rest of my life I would find/buy magnetic levitation footers to replace the existing footers. The plinth is OK but not great. One could make it better. That said, it is better designed/damped than the vast majority of it's contemporary rivals.

I think the arm works better in straight arm pipe format with high-compliance carts than the S-arm works with low compliance carts but playing with the oil-damping may yield you different results.

If I wanted one table all-in and I wanted to spend the 90-100,000 yen (1000-1100 euros) that these go for on hifido, i cannot think of a table I'd rather have (I don't have the experience with the Yamaha GT-2000 to make any kind of a judgment but I note that the motor philosophy between the two makers was similar (yamaha used a linear motor I think)).

It is a great table for the money. Pioneer made a nice family of tables.

The shipping to Poland can be made a lot cheaper by shipping it 'by sea'. I note that even if you ship by airmail, it will possibly spend a long time in Polish customs which means patience is necessary anyway. The import duties are based on what you state the value is; of course, insurance is limited by the same number too.

Disclosure: I don't currently own one of these. I had one through my system briefly. I have also had a large number of it's rivals through my system (except the Yamaha GT-2000). I still have and will keep it's bigger brother, the Exclusive P3.

 

Damping oil for EA-03 tonearm - Exclusive P3, posted on October 24, 2010 at 22:01:40
newsunflower


 
I'm looking for damping oil for my EA-03 arm (Exclusive P3). Does anybody let me know where I can get it.

Thanks

 

RE: It's a shame these were Japan-only, posted on September 10, 2010 at 17:34:55
jmlattu
Audiophile

Posts: 13
Location: Finland
Joined: September 10, 2010
 I thought about the GT-2000 but the PL-70LII costs less and looks absolutely stunning and there's some positive reviews/tests on the Vintageknob.

A statement on the Vintageknob makes me a little worried though:
"It is this newer, technically better (mark II), motor which is said to be less of the everlast kind - and unrepairable nowadays."

It's a question of finding a unit as close to mint as possible, I suppose. Those days - however - quality meant something more.
Hifido has a good reputation, I actually had to let one slip through my greasy, bony fingers recently due to uncertain financial situation.

Those magnetic footers do sound delicious, if I some day own the tt. Another thing's a voltage converter (100V -> 230V) but they are relatively cheap.
About 1000€ including shipping, customs, a converter and some (cheapish) footers.

P3 would be nice also, would you mind giving yours?


Poland is probably a nice place but as mentioned earlier, I prefer Finland :)

 

Some PL-70's photos for your reference..., posted on September 14, 2010 at 10:46:40
DanWKW
Audiophile

Posts: 635
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: June 17, 2009



PL-70 still in very good shape...



Power switch, Speed Selector, Start/Stop button and LED speed lock indicator for PL-70.



PA-70 tonearm mounted with ZYX Omega...



Closer look at the oil damping system(without silicone oil)...



Lock and unlock the base clamp to adjust the VTA/arm height...

Good luck...

Dan

Note: My PL-70 is NOT for sale.

 

I have the PL-707 (Photos), posted on October 5, 2010 at 20:45:04
Hi-Fidelity
Audiophile

Posts: 1500
Location: Mid-Michigan Area
Joined: October 14, 2008
Nice table. I have the PL-707 that I'm using in a vintage system. I'm sure it's a step-down from the PL-70. The platter and plinth look similar, but the tonearms are radically different, and I suspect your PL-70 tonearm is better. The 707 controls are on the front of the plinth while the 70's are on the platter rim.



It's hard to read, but in light blue on top of the tonearm base it has "Dynamic Resonance Absorber".





I'm using this with a Marantz 2270 and JBL L110's.



 

Your PL-707 looks very nice, too. , posted on October 5, 2010 at 21:03:08
DanWKW
Audiophile

Posts: 635
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: June 17, 2009
 Your vintage system reminds me of the good old days...when a decent Hi-Fi system, like yours, was still too remote for a dump school boy.

VBR
Dan

 

RE: Some PL-70's photos for your reference..., posted on September 14, 2010 at 14:33:21
jmlattu
Audiophile

Posts: 13
Location: Finland
Joined: September 10, 2010
 Nice and glossy, exquisite veneer, congratulations.

Do prefer damping off?

 

RE: Some PL-70's photos for your reference..., posted on September 14, 2010 at 23:45:12
DanWKW
Audiophile

Posts: 635
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: June 17, 2009
 Yes, I prefer damping off.

VBR
Dan

 

Oil damping, posted on September 15, 2010 at 07:42:28
jmlattu
Audiophile

Posts: 13
Location: Finland
Joined: September 10, 2010
 Is there a difference between no oil / knob at 0 position with oil?

 

RE: Oil damping, posted on September 15, 2010 at 12:08:29
DanWKW
Audiophile

Posts: 635
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: June 17, 2009
 Frankly speaking, the difference of "No oil at all" and "Knob at "0" with oil" on PL-70 could hardly be revealed by any entry level carts I have tried in my "mid-fi" system. For other carts, I prefer "no oil at all" in order to get PL-70(my secondary system) closer to my reference...it may be a matter of taste and preference, of course.

In brief, the oil damping system of PA-70, when applied, could offer me the major flexibility to alter some frequencies(mainly mid and mid low) a little bit when using certain carts but at the same time some sonic signature of PA-70 would be injected into the chain. In fact, I prefer PA-70(the tonearm) as 'neutral' as possible as I am more eager to hear the sonic differences of various carts.

I am not trying to suggest one should or should not apply the oil damping as I believe in respect of resonance, different tonearms interact with different carts, turntables, the supporting platforms, listening room(incl floor structure),...and finally subject to the difference in our perception.

For other suspension(i.e. floating, more springy) type TTs, I "usually" apply oil damping in my system if they have one.


VBR
Dan

 

Problems, posted on October 4, 2010 at 06:35:40
jmlattu
Audiophile

Posts: 13
Location: Finland
Joined: September 10, 2010
 Have you had any issues with your PL-70, mechanical or electrical?

 

So far so good...n/t, posted on October 4, 2010 at 06:49:51
DanWKW
Audiophile

Posts: 635
Location: Hong Kong
Joined: June 17, 2009
 n/t

 

RE: So far so good...n/t, posted on October 4, 2010 at 07:01:45
jmlattu
Audiophile

Posts: 13
Location: Finland
Joined: September 10, 2010
 That's good to hear.

 

My bad on the country. I read 'Finland' and put 'Poland' in my head..., posted on September 10, 2010 at 22:50:37
travisty
Audiophile

Posts: 1368
Location: Tokyo
Joined: April 2, 2003
 I have never had to ship anything to Finland so can't speak about customs.

I haven't lived with a PL-70LII long enough to see any motor quality issues and don't know anyone else who currently owns one. I had not heard they are susceptible to 'quality issues.'

You can have my P3 for 5000 euros if you want. :^)

 

RE: Pioneer PL-70LII, posted on September 11, 2010 at 05:17:22
jmlattu
Audiophile

Posts: 13
Location: Finland
Joined: September 10, 2010
 Ok, let's talk some business now.

1. Can you change the VTA on-the-fly like the anti skate?
2. How's that motor lift to operate, compared to a manual one?
3. How does the damping work, is there an oil reservoir inside the arm pillar? Did you use it?
4. Did you notice any speed or other issues?
5. The most important question: What does it sound like?

Thanks.

 

Talkin' business, posted on September 11, 2010 at 06:43:34
travisty
Audiophile

Posts: 1368
Location: Tokyo
Joined: April 2, 2003
 1) Yes
2) The "cue" button lowers the arm (or raises it back up if not appropriately placed). The arm lifts automatically at the end of the record.
3) Yes, the oil reservoir is under the top cap. Yes, it works. And Pioneer's repair center sells little containers of the arm damping oil (1800 yen a pop) but one could probably use any high viscosity silicon oil.
4) Nope. Very stable speed. I tend to like coreless motors better than cored or slotted motors.
5) As noted, it sounds very nice. For the price one pays, they are excellent tables. Would I take a PL-70L2 or a fully-modded KAB Technics SL-1210? I'd take the PL-70L2 any day. All things considered, the PL-70L2 doesn't match up to some of the mega tables, but at its price, it is not supposed to. The biggest issue keeping it from further greatness is probably plinth.

FWIW, the gold/champagne-y finish on the motor bezel is a paint on top of metal. It is slightly thick, and seems to 'bubble' easily. It is not a great paint and sometimes does not look great when it gets 'tired'. It can be polished a bit, but I think they don't wear well (in terms of looks).

If you want something which will look as good 30yrs from now as it did 30yrs ago (as long as it is not banged up), you might try a Sony TTS-8000. That is a wonderful motor - brushless/slotless/linear, somewhat low-torque but very speed stable.

 

RE: Talkin' business, posted on September 11, 2010 at 08:16:19
jmlattu
Audiophile

Posts: 13
Location: Finland
Joined: September 10, 2010
 As long as electronics and moving parts last bubbling isn't my greatest concern.

A better P3-like plinth would have made this beast a lot more expensive, i reckon.

By the way, does your P3 wear them 'levitators' (how do they effect the sound) and what's the knob on the right side of the EA-03 for?

 

The knob on the "right" (outside) is the VTF adjustment, posted on September 11, 2010 at 15:08:20
travisty
Audiophile

Posts: 1368
Location: Tokyo
Joined: April 2, 2003
The 'wooden' P3 'plinth' is not so much a plinth as a shroud.
It is not solid. If it were solid, it would not be movable.

Here is a pic of the inside of a P3. The plinth is a large box which sits on the lower platform. The P3 is 'isolated' between the lower platform and the upper platform. The arm and motor are mounted on the upper platform to be a rigid set.





The insulators are built into the P3 - they are springs which are oil-damped (inside those rubber casings) which put the resonant frequency down to below 5Hz. I think adding a Vibraplane beneath it might improve it, but the appropriate thing to do in that case would be to remove the springs from the P3, and build the vibraplane into it. I have not done that but I am planning on doing a hotrod job on a P3.

One could do the same thing with magnetic footers but I don't have enough of them (or strong enough ones) to support a P3. My set's limit is about 80lbs. This thing weighs 100lbs.

 

RE: Quite impressive system, posted on September 12, 2010 at 10:36:13
jmlattu
Audiophile

Posts: 13
Location: Finland
Joined: September 10, 2010
 So all major settings can be adjusted during playback, brilliant.

Is there a point in upgrading the tonearm cable or is a cleanup of the connectors sufficient, in your opinion?

 

I didn't try that..., posted on September 12, 2010 at 16:03:31
travisty
Audiophile

Posts: 1368
Location: Tokyo
Joined: April 2, 2003
 I am told that it always make sense to upgrade the tonearm wire on old tables after so many years, but I have yet to do it to most of my tonearms. I just now have a vintage tonearm visiting Mr. Tubes for a new bearing and new tonearm cable, and I have a basically NOS version of the same arm. It'll be interesting to see the difference in sound when it gets back.

In this case, however, the tonearm wire actually ends at the mounting chuck for the tonearm wand, and has a very short trip through the pivot to the end of the arm (unless it is straight to phono plugs but IIRC it is a DIN connection at the bottom of the arm, where you plug in the phono cable.

I think there is a metal plate screwed into the back of the plinth with a metal grommet in the hole where the phono cable comes out the back. The phono cable may be pretty thin as-is but that cable/plate can be removed, the hole enlarged, etc allowing a larger diameter phono cable. If I remember correctly, the amount of space between the 'straight-out-the-bottom' connection on the tonearm and the table under the plinth is quite limited, which means that the phono cable can't be too stiff whatever you do.

FWIW, the Pioneer repair center guy who repairs the old tonearms can redo the wiring on the arms but he does say that one wants to avoid damaging the wire in the armwand (at least on the P3) because they are a pain to try and rewire.

FWIW, I never advocate actually moving the settings while the stylus is in the groove. I always lift the stylus to make any changes... Well, almost always... on my Denon the anti-skating and damping are electronically controlled so I can do those. The VTA adjustment also works while playing but I have gotten into the habit of not making the change because of all my other tables where it would scare me (including the P3) so I don't.

 

RE: Yet another question, posted on September 14, 2010 at 07:51:53
jmlattu
Audiophile

Posts: 13
Location: Finland
Joined: September 10, 2010
 Is it easy to fiddle with the azimuth on the straight arm wand?

 

Not that I remember. Can't remember how that would be done, posted on September 14, 2010 at 08:31:02
travisty
Audiophile

Posts: 1368
Location: Tokyo
Joined: April 2, 2003
 I'll check my P3 tomorrow.

 

Azimuth, posted on October 5, 2010 at 09:08:41
jmlattu
Audiophile

Posts: 13
Location: Finland
Joined: September 10, 2010
 Hey travisty, have you forgotten your task? :)

 

RE: Not that I remember. Can't remember how that would be done, posted on September 17, 2010 at 09:02:40
jmlattu
Audiophile

Posts: 13
Location: Finland
Joined: September 10, 2010
 Have you checked your P3 yet?

 

RE: I might try that..., posted on September 13, 2010 at 07:18:30
jmlattu
Audiophile

Posts: 13
Location: Finland
Joined: September 10, 2010
 If one has an expensive cartridge one might want to avoid changing the settings on-the-fly but small changes shouldn't do any harm (never say shouldn't :) and it would be interesting to hear how adjusting the anti-skate and VTA affects the sound output on a test record.

 

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