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12.10.151.2
When I first purchased the Touch I posted on several forums asking if adding an external DAC was worth the expense. For the most part the answer was no. Some saying they liked the internal Touch DAC better, don't bother etc etc.
The Touch sounded OK (barely) at low levels as back ground music using the analog outputs. But if the volume was increased, it sounded washed out, flat and lifeless with no soundstage or air. Not real enjoyable. So I purchased a W4S DAC2 to try. Long story short, this is a no brainer. The sound is very good now. The DAC2 is still breaking in and changing a bit so I won't say much about what I hear. But using the coax output with a DH Labs D-75 cable the change is pretty dramatic. At least in my system. I was going to pursue a Mac, but think I'll wait awhile now.
If you're thinking about trying an external DAC with your SB Touch....I would... ASAP.
Follow Ups:
Anyone who told you not to bother to add a DAC has zero listening skills.
Adding a DAC is absolutely a no brainer. The analog outputs are lo-fi, period. Even if you added a bargain DAC like the Arcam, PS audio, or CIA the upgrade would have been monumental.
Also think about adding the Channel Islands Audio power supply for the SB.
And who were those ... uhhh ... how to say it to offend as few people as possible ... HEARING-IMPAIRED NUMBNUTS who told you that it won't make any difference?
LOL...funny post. It was Computer Audiofile and/or the Squeezebox Touch Forums. Not exactly sure, it was early on when I first got it. And before I found this forum. I just remember one guy that showed up on several forums with the same story explaing how he got rid of his high dollar DAC because the Touch internal DAC sounded better.
... with so called "experts" there, who basically tell people that nothing will make any difference in SQ. His SB Touch software customizations show that to be patently false.
I agree. I added a PS Audio Dlink 111 and it sounds like a good cd now. You are using a good coax but you might want to try an upgraded power cord. It seems DACs are pretty sensitive to power cords.I bought one from Signal cable for under $75 for digital front ends.
I added the DAC-09 Tube DAC from Grant Fidelity. It made a big Improvement for the SBT. Took it from mid-fi to Hi-Fi. I also bought an Emotiva XDA-1 DAC to Compare against the Grant DAC. They were close, but I preferred the Grant. Maybe because it was a Tube DAC and the Emotiva was Solid State.I also added a Welborne Power Supply - Maybe an improvement, but nothing close to the DAC. I fiddled with audiophile recommended various settings on the DAC, but I could hear no difference in them.
Also tried wired Ethernet vs. Wireless - No difference between them.
If you've got a SBT - Get a DAC first!
Cut-Throat
Edits: 04/04/11
I too have tried an Emotiva , its an excellent DAC for the money and works real well with the touch , I have ordered one.
Rodney Gold
I just bought an SB and feeding that into my Emotiva seems way better than the Apple Airport I was using.
navman
Have any of you with the W4S DAC tried using it to go directly to an amp?
I am using a Touch with a Wyred 4 Sound DAC-1 with excellent results. It was good to begin with but got MUCH better when I made Soundcheck's mods. The mods that made the biggest difference are:decoding at the computer
turning off wifi (this one is huge)
switching off all outputs except the coaxThese changes made a very audible improvement in my digital playback.
It is now good enough that I rarely use my analogue rig anymore.
Edits: 04/04/11
I've also experienced big improvement when I switched Touch screen off.
I have the screen switched off for everything except when the Touch is off. It has the only clock on that side of the room.
Ditto on SoundChekks mods and a replacement linear power supply and minimizing and removing wireless from the AV system completely.. The SBT performs like a high end transport, albeit only up to 96khz.An interesting thing occurred whilst I was doing the software mods. I had started doing them while a track was playing. With the reboot for each mod, the same track would automatically play on restart. With each mod and restart I could hear the track sound better each time. It started sounding a bit forced with a lot a lower treble energy. By the end it sounded smoother, more coherent with a more natural treble.
Everything SoundChekk has advised has rung true for me empirically.
Edits: 04/05/11
You turned off all the inputs on the SBT? How?
I used Soundcheck's Audio@vise Touch Toolbox to make the software changes he recommends. I did everything except turn off the screen when off. It is the only clock on that side of my room.
Since I use a preamp, I was able to use his other tools to fix the Touch output volume at 100. This is desirable because the Touch uses a digital volume control that attenuates by cutting bits.
I have the same set up. The DAC2 made a nice improvement for me as well over the Touch's internal DAC. My disappointment is that I was hoping to prefer the Touch/DAC2 to my AA Prima CD player which shouldn't rate that high in the overall scheme of things.
I was also hoping that the DAC2 would improve the sound over the CD player going from CD to DAC. Unfortunately, I still prefer my CD player. How does the DAC2/Touch compare to your Ayre CD player, and have you compared your Ayre alone to the Ayre feeding the DAC2?
Due to my preference for the same music played through the CD player, I find myself not using the Touch and DAC very much.
I also heard that, a better PS wouldn't make a difference, flac decoding
on the server wouldn't make a difference, volume lock wouldn't make a difference... I'll stop here.
The point is. You can't trust anything what's being said or claimed in forums like this one. If you ask you get a hundred different answers and "opinions".
You can't avoid trying it all by yourself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
soundcheck's audio@vise - Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 2.0
You're claiming that volume lock makes a difference to the sound as opposed to just manually making sure that the volume is at 100%?
I provide a script over here at my TT-Beta blog.Install the tool and make up your own mind... ;)
Enjoy.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
::: Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 2.0 :::
Edits: 04/04/11 04/04/11
So now you're claiming that one way of setting the volume to 100% sounds different that another way of setting the volume to 100%, though the results of each are absolutely the same. Now we're really down the rabbit hole.The script is valuable, though, and much appreciated. It's only the claim of a sonic difference that I find risible.
Edits: 04/04/11
Lets not talk about claims. I'm not claiming anything.
I am providing a tool on my TT "Beta-Blog". Just try it.
Lets talk a bit about "logic":
Logic and resulting conclusions depend on the parameters you're comparing - or even better - parameters you are able to compare.
That's why a logical conclusion about the supposedly very same subject might end up from "nonsense" to the "greatest thing ever".
In your case you're comparing in a very simplistic way a "UI-slider-value"
which says 100% and a tool which supposedly locks the volume at 100%.
Do you seriously believe that this - I'd say - rather simplistic logic can cover a pretty complex SW and HW solution?
So. Yes. Somebody is sitting in a rabbit hole. But it's not me. ;)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
::: Squeezebox Touch Toolbox 2.0 :::
Let's look at these 2 bogus methods - does anyone seriously suggest that work performed by CPU is the same for both functions, when SliderPosition = 100?
I'm not saying that #1 is how it's done in reality by Logitech - but clearly there's at least theoretical possibility.
Sub CalculateVolume(ByRef Signal As Decimal, ByVal SliderPosition As Integer)
Signal = (Signal * SliderPosition) / 100
End Sub
Sub CalculateVolume_WithBypass(ByRef Signal As Decimal, ByVal SliderPosition As Integer)
If SliderPosition < 100 Then
Signal = (Signal * SliderPosition) / 100
End If
End Sub
"In your case you're comparing in a very simplistic way a "UI-slider-value"
which says 100% and a tool which supposedly locks the volume at 100%."
So now you're saying the slider's 100% is not actually 100% (both left and right volume settings maxed out)? Can you back it up with reference to the code or bug reports? The volume setting is an integer value, so there's no shades of gray here. Either there are cases where the slider is wrong when it reports 100% or there are not. If I'm wrong in my thinking about how the code works then please give specifics.
The volume value on the Touch is rather complex, there is a slider in lua which sends data to other lua routines which convert to different ranges, on the low side there is a 0-100, 0-99 and 1-100, then there is the high side with 0-65536 (NOT 0 - 65535!). Then it gets sent over the network to the server and goes through several perl functions in different places, then back to the Touch where lua code does some more translations, then it gets sent to C code, which puts it in a shared memory segment, from which another program in C extracts the value and does the actual sample bit manipulation, then sends that to ALSA.
I spent a couple days trying to track all this down and was never sure I got it all. A "just look at the code" is not trivial.
I tried to put some debug statements in the final program just before it did the actual volume adjustment but something broke in the development environment and it won't compile. I was going to work out a method to compile just that program but ran out of time to work on this subject. So for now I can't tell for sure whats happening.
If you want to try the "Look at the code approach" all the sources are on the slimdevices svn site, but there are a LOT of files involved!
John S.
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