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I currently have an SB3 but would like the ability to pass 24/96 files to my receiver. How is the DAC in the Touch, sound-quality wise?
Money is a huge object, so I need to plan carefully.
Thanks
Jeff
"Decaf is for cowards."
Jack Kevorkian
Follow Ups:
Hi.
I think John nailed it down pretty much. You can easily lift that device up from midfi to audiophile by applying some trivial modifications. (Though we IMO still need a SQ-benchmark in absolute terms, where to put it on the analog SQ-ladder -- I am still using SPDIF out)
Below you'll find the link to the modification proposals I've written up.
These mods pretty much all affect the analog output performance.
Most of the modifications won't cost you anything. It just needs a little DIY spirit and pretty much no special skills to get them applied.
Enjoy.
What offers better SQ for 16/44...the modded Touch or Ec's SD Player? Have you heard his latest 1541 based player?
Yes, I listened to his mkII. The SD-player was connected to mains. We used an Alps-Blue pot and Johns standard output caps, feeding a T2020 Tripath.
We compared it to a slightly tweaked Touch+Buffalo-Sabre32-with-passive-out combo.
Such a test scenario makes it really difficult -- I'd say almost impossible -- to conclude anything, since you're looking at too many different parameters.
However. The outcome was pretty close to what could have been expected.
The SD-player with 1541 delivers a better overtone spectrum. Instruments sound definitely much more real.
The Touch-Sabre-combo comes with a much better separation, depth and focus.
The SD-player will improve on seperation and focus, if you hook the player up to batteries. Though the 1541 module would need 3*12V batteries for accomplishing this.. This is IMO impossible to manage.
We havn't compared the SD-player to the Touch DAC at that time.
I concluded - for now - that I won't spent a grand for that SD-player.
There was no night and day difference. Ok. That's not really true.
The performance is really different. The question is where you'd like to set your priorities.
The Touch solution gives me much more flexibility.
Though I am pretty sure that you won't be able to get a better transport then a slaved and master clocked (PIC) SD-transport in principle.
A nice test would have been to feed the SABRE by the SD-Transport.
What annoys me most with the SD-transport is the handling of SD-cards.
It feels like being back to the digital stoneage. ;)
Cheers
Soundchekk, did you have a chance to compare the touch+sabre against the modded touch using analog out?
I'm trying to cut down the number of components and will sacrifice a little, but don't want to give away a lot of SQ.
I'm finding the stock Touch has great tonality, good speed and good detail when used with a well matched interconnect. It is extremely enjoyable. It has a flatter soundstage and weaker imaging than my cd player (Cary 308T) and also as compared to using the digital out into the Bryston DAC.
I think this is consistent with John's comments in that you can enjoy this unit very much in a high end system, and it probably will not be improved with a modest DAC, but can be substantially improved with a superior DAC.
BTW I'm testing using Apple lossless via wifi from a MacBook Pro and also an SDHC card using 256bit rate. I'm finding both SDHC cards and USB drives are still beta in terms of functionality, but at least I can get the SDHC card to work and it does sound very enjoyable.
I've posted on this subject quite a bit. My take is that the Touch analog outs are quite good and can sound REALLY good if you use it correctly. My experience has been that the sound is fairly susceptible to how you use it.
For example I hear a significantly better sound when using an external server with flac files converted to PCM on the server. I also hear better sound when using wired ethernet rather than WiFi. For me using the builtin server does not sound as good as the best I can get when using an external server.
There are others who disagree with these. At this point I'm not sure whether this is just due to personal preferences or to differences in environment.
Member Sounchchekk has put together a page on software tweaks and usages to get the best out of the Touch. I find these do work.
I have also done some hardware mods. In particular the Touch has cheap electrolytic output caps in the analog path, these are not needed at all. The DAC is already ground referenced so these serve no purpose at all. Bypassing these significantly improves sound. Another one is to unplug the screen. This also offers a significant improvement.
So using it out of the box without any hardware changes and JUST using the usage enhancements (external server, flac to PCM) you can get really good sound. Adding the software enhancements gives REALLY good sound. Adding the hardware changes on top gives WOW, scary good sound.
My personal opinion is that its going to be almost impossible to find a DAC for less than $500 which when run from the SB3 will even come close to what the Touch can do on its own. Throw in the hardware mods and its going to be hard to touch, period.
The power supply is a very controversial subject. Some people hear major improvements when switching to a linear supply, others hear no difference at all. This has become a very hotly contested issue for some reason with lots of flames and personal attacks.
For ME, going with a linear supply makes a small improvement, but nowhere near as big a difference as some of the other things mentioned. My hypothesis is that the difference is far more about noise being injected into the AC line or being radiated into space than the quality of the actual signal coming out of the Touch itself. Thus how much of a difference you are going to hear depends very much on how your other equipments responds to EMI and mains noise. This varies radically from system to system which seems to explain why there is such a big disagreement over what difference it makes.
If you only have $300 to spend I think going with the Touch would be a much better choice than going with a $300 DAC and the SB3. If you can swing thousands for an external DAC you might be able to get better sound. There are some expensive DACs that will not sound as good as a fully tweaked out Touch.
John S.
At the risk of being declared a philistine, I am extremely pleased with the built-in DAC on the Touch.
I had been using a SB3 with a Lavry DA-10 combo in my main system for the past few years. As noted in other posts, I level matched the analog outs of the Touch against the SB3/Lavry combo and synced the two players. I was then able to switch directly between the two sources for comparison.
After several days of comparison I routinely found myself unable to tell which source was in use without looking at the input selector switch on the amp. I ended up moving the Touch to my main system, the SB3 to my second system and I sold the Lavry.
Of course, all the usual disclaimers apply. I'm sure my system is not suitably sophisticated and refined for some and that my ears and audiophile training are substandard for others.
However, I like it and it works fine for my musical enjoyment. The only way to find out what you'll think is to try it for yourself.
Kal Rubinson is reviewing the SB Touch in the October issue of Stereophile.
John Atkinson
Editor, Stereophile
I shall await it eagerly.
Jeff
"Decaf is for cowards."
Jack Kevorkian
I don't think there IS an absolute answer. I ended up sending mine back, but it was a tough call. One of those ALMOST good enough things that's strongly affected by your ears, other gear and usage.
The factors I was looking for were good sound from the internal DAC at 24/96 and a WLAN connection to my system and I found them somewhat mutually exclusive. My limited experience with the SB3 is that it didn't sound good using it's internal DAC (the Touch is better) but sounded fine using my external one. One thing that is far improved is radio streaming. The SB3 would just go ga-ga when my ISP had dropouts however the Touch handled them as well or better than anything else I've used.
Especially since you are not planning on using it's DAC, I would try the touch. It's a very slick unit, your odds are pretty good and you have a month to return it if doesn't work out.
Good luck, Rick
The Touch has great potential as a transport, but the analog outs aren't that good in stock form. According to some (more skilled and daring) inmates, the Touch can sound great as a standalone player once properly modded, but I can't confirm that since I only use its digital out.
"We should no more let numbers define audio quality than we would let chemical analysis be the arbiter of fine wines." N.P.
I also have a SB3 and Duet. I think you will be very impressed by what you hear for $200(what I paid) versus Duet or SB3. I run the SB3 at my VA house to Benchmark via Silver IC's and Toslink both and the Touch sounds really close to my ears, although not quite as crisp at the high end. For that money, it's outstanding in my opinion and a no brainer.
I run it off a PC with 2TB external HD's via N+ wireless router and it took about 2 seconds to set it up, sync it to my router and away it went. I tried going direct from USB in and that worked fine as well at SD card with albums. I have a lot of music, so I use wireless connection from my PC. I think you'll enjoy it unless you're one of those guys that keeps messing and messing and messing, instead of enjoying music....
Enjoy,
Rootman
Rootman
I
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I've been wondering if my money is better spent on a DAC for the SB3 or the Touch. I appreciate the answer and the context.
Jeff
"Decaf is for cowards."
Jack Kevorkian
...is asked once a week. Search this forum and you'll find plenty of info.
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