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it has been discussed in the past, but most threads i found is mostly theoretical views and statements. As i don't have the scientific background to judge, what i need is some personal experiences from you gents that have implement such a setup. I am about to explore this solution as an upgrade over a DAC1. Source is an Intel Mac Mini > iTunes (and soon i hope to test Amarra) What FW Dac are you using? What clock? Did the addition of a master clock improved sonics?
Is the audible result worth the hassle and expense involved?
Many thanks for any input...
George
Follow Ups:
I use Firewire output of Macbook Pro to a Metric Halo ULN-2 (approx $1500).
No separate clock needed or wanted. Your best bet with Firewire is to get a DAC with a great internal clock.
A separate, external clock will not perform better than a clock of equal capability that is internal to the DAC. The jitter intrinsic to the DAC is the jitter that matters when using Firewire. I would NEVER purchase a separate clock. I'd invest the money in a device that didn't need it, such as the ULN-2, ULN-8 or any of the Weiss DACs.
best of luck
Thanks cfmsp b.l.zeebub. Just from curiosity... How u came to that solution? What other dacs have you heard and how does ULN-2 sound by comparison? I mean is it a big upgrade in sq? I would be interested to read your impressions...
I didn't arrive at the choice of ULN-2 through normal audiophile channels, so I don't have head-to-head comparisons with other DACs to offer.I was looking for a very high quality portable recording device before I realized that I could use the device's DAC in a computer audio playback chain.
Long story short, the ULN-2 came highly recommended as pre/ADC/DAC by recordists (e.g. Barry Diament and John Atkinson), and it was recommended for its DAC alone by Vincent Sanders (and also Barry and others), so I bought it on trial at B&H, compared it to my current recording devices, and also to my Arcam FMJ CD23 CD player (with its dCS RingDAC implementation), and was very happy. The CD23 does NOT have a digital input, so I couldn't do a direct comparison to the RingDAC, but it's been gathering dust since I hooked up the ULN-2.
I also knew from reading Bob Katz and Dan Lavry's comments on recording forums that the ideal is to use a high quality clock in a ADC/DAC as master, which is quite easily accomplished with Firewire. I use the Firewire input direct from Macbook Pro, but also have the TOSlink input connected to an Apple TV.
Metric Halo make some of the best gear available, despite not receiving audiophile accolades. They don't make a lot of different gear. They make a small number of pieces that are the best at what they do. Their new ULN-8 has upped the ante significantly.
They OEM the DACs that Sonic Studio sell, both the Sonic Studio series and the Amarra hardware. The Model Four and the 304 are based on the ULN-8 (which was recently released by Metric Halo after a nearly two year beta period).
Check it out if you get the chance.
Highly recommended.
Edits: 08/04/09
Many thanks for your help. You gave me some good reasons to focus on Metric Halo.
Both ULN-2 and ULN-8 (@ almost 3times the ULN-2 price) will be available first week of September. Not much happens in August :-)
And to back it up here is a link to a rather lengthy discussion: http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/14324/0/0/0/
By the last page Dan Lavry and Lucas van der Mee (Sr. Design Engineer Apogee Electronics) seem to agree that "Jitter at the convertor chip will be lower, in most cases, when clocked to internal. There is no doubt about that, no mystery, we never claimed anything else." (v.d.Mee).
thanks b.l.
I was about to respond that I first heard this from Bob Katz.
Took a peak at your link, and Bob was actually the first responder, saying
"An external clock is a bandaid for a "cure" which can only be done properly within a good converter design. In fact, any converter which does not perform equally as good or BETTER on internal clock than external is also defective."
Of course, this is probably most relevant to Firewire and Async USB DACs.
If the words above are number 2 in the pantheon of advice for good digital music reproduction, number 1 would likely be - make sure the clock in the DAC is the master.
Perhaps you remember a thread/link that supports this?
Actually I thought Dan Lavry had a whitepaper regarding this on his site but I couldn't find it.
So I just googled 'Lavry, masterclock' and got this link to prosoundweb. Psw is an excellent resource for the technically minded as it is the forum where the designers/engineers who really matter post.
Gearslutz is also good but a lot more casual/non-technical.
Abe, thanks for sharing your Mini Dac experience. It is my Nr.1 option as well. 2 ch, XLR outputs, plug'n'play with the Mac... just wondering if this is a major step up in sonics from Benchmark.
I was hopping that someone is using pro FW Dacs (RME, Presonus, ECHO, MOTU etc) for home use.
Even better if combined with external clocks (like Big Ben, Antelope etc) You can buy a top notch FW dac (Ok, you don't need 48 channels or 12 mic amps ), upgrade perhaps with an Antelope External Clock... all these for half the money of a Weis.
Audiozorro, you mean that Pace-Car2 reclocker will make a difference over Benchmark's UltraLock? Have you heard that combination?
Thank you all for your response.
As I mentioned to audiozorro , a good friend of mine preferred the Apogee Duet and better yet, the Apogee Mini DAC (via Firewire) vs the Benchmark DAC or a highly Cullen modified PS Audio DLIII via USB.
You could try pinging JerryS who sometimes frequents the Asylum. I have not heard the Benchmark DAC.
I did not find the Apogee Mini DAC to be a step up in sonics from the Benchmark. At the time I had both, my next step would have been to buy the Apogee Big Ben and build a custom power supply for the Mini DAC and hope those additions would be a major step up from my Benchmark USB DAC1. I decided to pass on that course of action and I returned the Mini DAC.
Of course it may depend on which version of the Benchmark DAC you have. Again, at one time I had both the DAC1 and USB DAC1. Even just using the similar toslink connections the improvement of the USB DAC1 was very noticeable.
I recommend that you contact Steve Nugent at Empirical Audio since he previously provided mods to the Benchmark and he has more experience in using the Pace Car 2 with the Benchmark DACs.
Of course I still feel that if you are using a Mac computer and you want a firewire DAC, IMO anything short of the Weiss DAC2 at $3K will probably sound different but will not lead to significant improvements in sonics.
However, the good thing about the Apogee and Benchmark is that you will usually have 30-45 day period to evaluate the equipment in your home system before committing to the purchase.
A good audiophile friend of mine had the Benchmark DAC USB and preferred the Apogee Duet via FireWire. He later upgraded to the Apogee Mini DAC FireWire which he liked even more.
I had the Apogee Mini DAC Firewire. My interest at the time was to get 24/192 output from my Mac computer.
If you review the comments over at Audio Circle or Head-Fi, the majority of responders seem to prefer the Apogee Duet to the Mini DAC by about 7 to 3. Some of those who liked the Mini DAC better had built custom power supplies for it (Sigma 11 or battery). Some others who preferred the Mini DAC were also using the Big Ben clock.
By contrast, I would imagine that the percentage of folks who would prefer the Weiss DAC2 to any of the Apogee or Benchmark DACs may be as high as 9 to 1. Thats why I suggest selling the Benchmark and buying the $3K Weiss if you are looking for a significant and widely acknowledged increase in sonics. Not that I am trying to demean the Apogee or Benchmark products, they are excellent sounding but there is always better, albeit at 2-3 times the price.
Weiss DAC2 IS a pro dac, buyable under $3k! The consumer version is the Minerva for a good bit more.
I suggest you consider either the Empirical Audio Pace-Car 2 reclocker to be used with your DAC1 or sell the DAC1 and buy the firewire Weiss DAC2. IMO anything less is not worth the effort.
If I were making a wish list for a DAC it would be that there was a Firewire version of the Cambridge Audio DACMagic, which is terrific and over the moon great considering its price. The reason I mention this is that optical is not a viable way to playback high res files with the Mac Mini and the DACMagic. I tried the optical route this weekend and to my ears the sound was simply crappy and not even close to high end sound. The muaic was bright, light in the bass and the timing was off. This was really a great disappointment and I caution those of you with a Mac Mini to stay clear of optical unless for some reason your DAC does a much better job with the toslink input than the DACMagic, which has very good jitter measurements that input as reported by John Atkinson in Stereophiie.
My Mac Mini driving the DAC section of my Accuphase DP-65v CDP via Toslink wasn't bad but I prefer Firewire to the Apogee Mini DAC.
My setup consists of:
Mac Mini > iTunes > Apogee Mini DAC Firewire version > ARC LS25mkII Linestage > Manley 250watt EL34 Monoblocks > Thiel CS 2.4 speakers. Balanced interconnects from DAC to Linestage to Monoblocks.
The Mac Mini / Apogee combo replaced my Accuphase DP-65v CDP (which replaced the outstanding Cary 306/200 CDP for me a few years ago). I can honestly say that I am quite pleased with the results.
No special master clock, just the items listed above.
I read with interest that you replaced your Accuphase after acquiring an Apogee mini DAC. I am learning about computer audio but know nothing about Mac, and wonder whether one could use a laptop running Windows to drive the Apogee mini DAC via a firewire port ? Any deteriorations in sound quality ? Also, would a Sony laptop with an i.LINK port be able to drive the Apogee ? If my understanding is correct the i.LINK is a 4-pin firewire connection and the only difference between a 4-pin and 6-pin port is that the latter carries a DC power.
Thanks.
I haven't played with the audio settings in Windows to know if you can drive the Apogee Mini DAC via a PC Firewire port. I suspect that you can but you may want to post your question starting a new thread.
I believe I saw something on the Apogee website about 4 pin vs 6 pin Firewire. You'll probably have to go to Apogeedigital.com and do some searching and possibly reading the FAQs. Their support personnel are also responsive via email usually responding within a day.
Also note that there's a USB version and a Firewire version the Apogee Mini DAC. If Firewire won't work for you, USB most certainly will. The Firewire version costs a bit more. You can find them at bhphoto.com, guitarcenter.com, musiciansfriend.com, and amazon.com (via some of their partners).
Sorry I don't have the answers for you.
...and found the answer.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Q: My Mini-DAC-FireWire is not recognized by my laptop running Windows XP.
A: The Mini-DAC-FireWire requires a powered 6-pin FireWire port that provides between 8 and 30 volts. Many laptops running Windows only have 4-pin FireWire ports. These are not compatible with Mini-DAC-FireWire.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, the website states the USB option has been discontinued.
Thanks for your quick reply.
I just emailed Apogee support to confirm status of USB on the Mini DAC and they responded within 9 minutes with the following:
"The USB version of the daughter card is discontinued. The Mini-DAC is only available with a FireWire daughter card or with neither the FireWire or USB card."
Without FireWire or USB, the Mini DAC in/outs would include AES, Toslink, S/PDIF.
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