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Ayre is releasing a USB DAC.
Follow Ups:
Hello Everyone --
Thanks for your interest in our new USB DAC. We have never made an external DAC before, for the simple reason that the normal S/PDIF connection unavoidably adds jitter, thereby degrading the sound.
The work that Gordon has done with the "asynchronous" sub-class of the "isochronous" transmission mode (always used for USB audio) is truly ground-breaking. For the first time ever, an external DAC can be used with a transport (in this case a computer) and match the low jitter levels and performance of a one-box disc player, while using a standard connection.
There is a lot to tell about this technology, and we are putting the final touches on a white paper together. It should be posted on our website in the next week or so. (We had a rough draft for handout at our CES exhibit, but I think it only went to our dealers and the people attending our press conference.)
Thanks again,
Charles Hansen
Can it do 24/192 over USB like the EMU0404 for example or does it stick to 24/96 or less?
Ralph,
This version is a 24/96 (44.1, 48, 88.2 and 96) dac that works off the USB 1.1 Audio Specification. The EMU uses USB Class 2.0 Specification.
The problem with using the Class 2.0 is that not all operating systems (including Windows and Linux) support Class 2.0 so device drivers are required to make it work.
While this is ok... it's also a pain and there are allot of problems with driver interaction, program compatibility and such that large companies such as EMU don't have a problem with.
When Class 2.0 is adapted to all the operating systems there will be new hardware there for 24/192 or even 32/192 which could happen very soon.
Thanks
Gordon
J. Gordon Rankin
appreciated!
Ralph
such as:
Which USB receiver chip is used.
Is it USB-to-I2S (vs. USB-to-spdif).
Which DAC chips are used.
Output stage topology. Discrete?
Jitter reduction strategy implemented.
Does it upsample, and is it defeatable.
Jon,
TAS1020 I2S to FPGA
Don't know which dac chip they decided on.
Output is discrete, IV discrete no opamps
No upsampling, their own digital filters.
Jitter is really removed from the start in the way that all my TAS1020 designs are.
See my feeling is that if you don't keep the jitter down from the start then in all cases you cannot fix it. This is easily seen by most of the dacs running the Centrance code. The jitter on the Adaptive TAS1020 is done well by Centrance but it is still really high as the SCLK, WCLK and the DATA are all clocked out via PLL generated clocks.
This is why the when tested all these dacs did better under SPDIF than USB.
By placing an ultra low jitter clock into the MCLK input pin then we don't have to use the PLL generated SCLK, WCLK and DATA. Instead these pins are clocked viat the MCLK input instead and the results are much better.
We did tests using the Wavecrest DTS system which measures jitter to better than 500fS. In all cases when we used the PLL generated signals the jitter on these pins was over 44x what it was using the MCLK input pin on the TAS1020 with a low jitter clock.
Thanks
Gordon
J. Gordon Rankin
Finally, after I don't know how many years now, a reasonably-priced async USB DAC from a respected company. Something to free us from the evil clutches of S/PDIF without having to do the conversion inside the computer box. I just hope that it comes with a "hot" output option that will match up with a TVC... though 2 volts is fine for those with active pre's, a pro-level balanced out would do nicely here.
"a reasonably-priced async USB DAC from a respected company"
That's debatable. To each, his/her own.
Which part is debatable? Reasonably priced, async, or respected company?
Both "reasonably priced," and "respected company" are debatable depending on any particular individual's experiences and perceptions.
OK, fair enough. We will have to see what happens.
Guys,
First all USB dacs are ISO. Yes the Ayre is async usb but it has allot more than that.
It has custom digital filters. Charlie can tell you more but basically they bypass the canned filters in the dac and have an FPGA and do their own filters. It's a pretty neat concept and not easy to pull off.
As with all the Ayre stuff this is a zero feedback design using a ton of discrete parts of high caliber.
Thanks
Gordon
J. Gordon Rankin
It is impossible to build solid sate equipment with zero feedback. Transistors are inherently unstable without it. If you push Ayre on it they will admit that they do use local feedback and their zero feedback claim applies only to global feedback. Personally I think this is misleading but they claim it is not because it is understood that local feedback is required but global is not.....I feel it is misleading because there is a mystique surrounding zero feedback designs such as many/most SETs that truly are zero feedback, and for those who are not technically savy they will not understand the distinction that Ayre makes.And yes this mystique does exist or Ayre would not beat the zero feedback drum so vigorously.
Edits: 01/12/09
Herman,
Local feedback is inherent in any design. You never get the full gain out of any device.
Local feedback is not really feedback at all. Because by definition feedback means that some part of the signal is feed back into the input.
Local feedback does not mean this at all. It simply means that the gain is not left willy nilly to the max... which in case would oscillate.
Therefore I do not see the Claim as being false.
Heck I make a ton of amplifiers with zero feedback. There are simple ways of making them not feedback.
For instance on my guitar amplifiers that have zero feedback and freaken tons of gain (85dB), I can use a simple capacitor across a plate loaded resistor or grid resistor and inhibit the oscillation. Does this constitute feedback....
Heck no....
Feedback is what it is... I think it kills the space in music.
I don't see that there is any localized feedback in the dac design. Not even in the regulators. Heck I got the schematics for it.
Thanks
Gordon
J. Gordon Rankin
Isochronous or asynchronous? Curious, in this instance, why one would purchase licensed technology when said technology is available directly from the licensor?
--eNjoY YouRseLf!.....
The licensed part is only for the receiver circuits. After that it is pure Ayre or pure Wavelngth. Not having heard the Ayre I can't comment on how it sounds but I bet the presentation will be different from the Wavelength despite using the same type of receiver. Many people would rather go with a company the size of Ayre with their reputation for excellent service rather than what many would consider a boutique builder, albeit what appears to be a very good one.
It will be interesting to hear how the Ayre piece at $2,500 compares to Gordon's more expensive offerings.
Asynchronous is one of the available isochronous modes.
Right, but by having a secondary isochronous back channel to the sender the receiver can regulate the data flow and use its own local clock as a master.
That makes all the difference.
Cheers
Thomas
DAC's have been around for a long time but I really think this new wave of DAC's are due to computer audio. With that said I also think the manufacturers have another thing coming if they think computer audio enthusiasts will fall for the "higher price = better SQ" like your run of the mill Audiophile. Sure many Audiophile converts and many computer Audiophiles likely still do have that mentality but here in computer audio many good things are free [foobar, winamp, cplay...] and a little knowledge pays big dividends [diy building computers, tweaking OS's, understanding latencies, and hardware usage such as PCI, USB etc.].
Bryston, Ayre et.al may have a better idea and a hand up on the art of packaging ie looks, but its still going to be a hard sell. IMO
Looks good though, but it might be hard to convince the buying public that their DAC is twice as good as a Benchmark, Apogee miniDAC, Lavry, RME Fireface400 etc, or even better than a Wavelength Brick etc. Good luck to Ayre but just like with every other business in today's economy, you can't make money with a business as usual mentality. Its going to take a new business philosophy that speaks to the changing environment, shift of value and gain of knowledge by the consumers.
Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry
I think there's a little bit more to it than that. high end audio is notorious for high prices, and diminishing returns. that's the nature of the beast when high performance and the profit motive have to share in the act.
while it is true that computers can be assembled (not really 'built', per se) by audiophiles with minimals skills and tools, and software settings can be toyed with ad infinitum, with little risk other than having to start from scratch and reinstall a bunch of software, most audiophiles cannot build high class digital gear from scratch, or even from kits.
legitimate high end audio companies (we won;t get into the argument as to which ones those are) have the advantage of a wider range of listening experience to a variety of very good gear, and are often better able to know what is possible, as opposed to an (computer) audiophile who can only tell whether a change is better, worse or same, without knowing how much more there is to acheive.....
i'm still new to the computer audio thing, but i work for a high end retailer, and have access to lots of stuff to try, or buy. it doesn't make me special, but it does make it easier to gain knowledge by being able to try things, and see what works and what doesn't.
the holy trinity seems to be 1. good ears, 2. a keen understanding of the problems and how to fix them, and 3. the ability to combine 1 and 2 into a working product. then it's up to the audio consumer to decide whether to buy it or not.
lastly, i'd say ayre is a well regarded company, both for their products and their customer support (no, i am not a dealer of theirs), and i would imagine that the price reflects the parts cost, plus labor and profit/overhead......
not sure if this is more rant than informative, but i hope it helps the discussion along.
best,
mark
One of the things that he said was that it's a real challenge to keep costs reasonable and add more features, like a SPDIF, AES/EBU, and optical inputs, and still make the USB conversion sound wonderful.
My goal with this new thing that I'm building is to get great sound coming from the iMAC/MacBook, ITunes, and Internet radio, AND have the option of using the DirecTV box, a DVD player, etc.
A lot of good things seem to be happening, but I still see a long way to go...
I was a punk before you were a punk
You don't believe me? Just step outside and see me
They seemed to have priced it to compete directly with the BelCanto DAC3.
If it has digital volume control, then the price is in the right range IMO. Depends on the sound whether they will sell many of course.
I am now a firm believer that jitter is the great equalizer among DAC's. With high-jitter input, DAC's can sound very different, but with a low jitter input, they all tend to sound more similar.
Well, of course the first question I had here for Charles Hansen when he mentioned the new DAC was about a volume control. Here is the question and responses (scroll down to see all of it...it was a busy thread here):
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=digital&n=141345&highlight=Charles+Hansen
I've contemplating checking out the Bel Canto, but now I'll hold off for a bit and check this out too. I need more info though.
Jack
but here in computer audio many good things are free [foobar, winamp, cplay...] and a little knowledge pays big dividends [diy building computers, tweaking OS's, understanding latencies, and hardware usage such as PCI, USB etc.].
That is true on the source (computer) side of things but a DIY DAC that can perform to the level of a professional piece is a different beast. I know of very few people who have the chops to build a DAC that can outdo what the pros are doing. The whole realm of receiver protocols and jitter reduction is simply beyond the grasp of even the most qualified techs much less the average computer geek even those those same people can easily research the topic and build a very nice computer server on their own. Your analogy is not valid since DIY computers with free stuff is a reality whereas DIY DACs with free stuff is not.
Looks good though, but it might be hard to convince the buying public that their DAC is twice as good as a Benchmark, Apogee miniDAC, Lavry, RME Fireface400 etc, or even better than a Wavelength Brick etc.
The projected list is <$2,500 which is on the low end of things for people who have the money to buy products in this class. The vast majority of people who are buying this class of product aren't hanging around over here looking for ways to decrease the latency in their servers. They are willing to pay a little bit extra for something with the build quality, reputation, and customer service that a company like Ayre offers, and for those customers I bet they don't even view it as a little bit extra, they view it as sound value for their dollar.
Even some who hang around here have spent what is to me a tremendous amount of money on top of the line DACs like Wavelengths $17,000 offering. You don't want to spend $300 on a PCI card and these people don't bat an eye to spend $3,000 or more on a digital cable. It is a different world. $2,500 is not much money to those people.
"That is true on the source (computer) side of things but a DIY DAC that can perform to the level of a professional piece is a different beast. I know of very few people who have the chops to build a DAC that can outdo what the pros are doing. The whole realm of receiver protocols and jitter reduction is simply beyond the grasp of even the most qualified techs much less the average computer geek even those those same people can easily research the topic and build a very nice computer server on their own."
I agree that most designers dont have the digital/jitter knowledge to deal with jitter effectively. However, "pro" gear is not much better IME. They make the same mistakes and poor parts choices, sometimes worse. It's the experience of the particular designer that is important IMO. Just buying Pro guarantees nothing.
I did not mean professional as in "pro audio." I meant people who are professionals in this field i.e. the experts. I should have chosen a different word since most people would take it as you did and think I did mean pro audio.
Yeah! Ayre needs to come out with something free and open source. Hey DR, have you acquired any new opinions on your quest for a DAC/Pre?
have you acquired any new opinions on your quest for a DAC/Pre?
My short list is either a RME Fireface 400 or a Apogee miniDAC, both will likely be powered by battery.
I'm leaning towards firewire vs. USB. I really can't see spending upwards or more than $300 on a PCI card "just" for a decent digital out. That leaves me with either USB or Firewire...imo Firewire beats USB so.....
Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry
Yeah, I agree about the PCI card method. I was studying the Lynx because I was interested in it's analog outputs. I wonder how it would compare to the Apogee Mini DAC?
IMO....
If you have a good DAC...say DAC X and put it in two different scenario's a)powered via a computer power supply b) powered by a battery. I would think option "b" would give the best result.
IMO.....This is why I don't advocate PCI soundcards, but they can be convenient.
Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry
I understand. You can order a Apogee Mini DAC with Firewire now but they still don't have the details on their website yet. I also remember someone successfully using, with very good results, a laptop battery with it.
I am also considering the Apogee Mini DAC Firewire but there's a slight trade-off in that you no longer get the USB input. It's either Firewire OR USB, not both.
The Mini DAC Firewire ships with a Firewire mezzanine card preinstalled in place of the USB card.
If you have the "regular" Mini DAC that has the USB option card in it, you can buy the Firewire card separately and install it yourself. The kit comes with a slightly different back panel plate that has a cut out to fit the shape/size of the Firewire port (in place of the plate that has the USB cut out).
In any case, the Mini DAC with Firewire lists for about $1095 and some retailers will have it for slightly less. It's a special order item at my local Guitar Center store.
Apogee Mini with firewire:$985.97 including shipping from Sweetwater.
Edits: 01/12/09
Thanks for the link, that answered my questions (It looks like it would be easy to install and it handles 24/192k where USB only goes as high as 16/48k). Now, I will not have the problems I had with MB USB ports. Right?
Edits: 01/11/09
My first DAC was an Apogee Mini powered by a custom rechargeable battery made by a guy I can't remember. It was nice for the money.
Cool...
I firmly believe in getting the most value for the money.
Which is why I don't think the soundcard/DAC route is very economical.
Say someone spends $200-300 on a good soundcard Juli@, Asus etc. and $1000-1200 on a decent DAC, Benchmark, Lavry, Apogee etc. imo it would better to spend $1500 on a Wavelength Brick and a few bucks on a decent PCI/USB card.
But to each his/her own, everyone has their favorite route and method to skin the audio cat, in the end I guess all that matters is how happy someone would be with their purchase.
Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry
Hey dyn,
The juli@ is only $150 and look at the mods you can do. If its is one thing I have learned with audio, its that a decent component modded usually beats more expensive items that are stock.
At 150, it is not a huge deal to mod the card...and you dont have to worry about being limited to 96k.
You have a point....I think this is what made the Behringer DEQ2496 such a hit...
Karma Means Never Having To Say You're Sorry
Now who has the point?
That is a great example of what I am talking about.
The thing is though that there performance does come with a price....
and in just like great amps and speakers, a great sounding product has great internal components that are well designed....
I am hoping that using a Stello Signature as a DAC/Pre will work well...
cheers,
I was a punk before you were a punk
You don't believe me? Just step outside and see me
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