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RE: the problem with Nagnepans ....

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In Reply to: RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... posted by trioderob on February 04, 2023 at 20:04:29

Simplistic 'review'. I prefer good dynamic speakers. You don't. Apples and oranges.

Follow Ups:

all I am saying about the Magnepans is ....... - trioderob 22:20:30 02/04/23 (1)
once you have lived with them for a while you can notice box resonances that - at least in my case - where not apparent when I had piston drivers.

example :

just heard some Vanderstien 3 speakers and while they defiantly had low bass there was a tendency for the woofer to homogenize instruments in the lower octaves - a double bass was deep and powerful but it also sounded like a woofer was making the music - not an acoustic string instrument. I am not saying it was to any extreme degree but JUST enough for me to notice now that I have magneplaner speakers. Actually there have been box speakers I like but literally none under about 10 grand and they had ACCUTON ceramic drivers . All mini monitors sound constipated to me but there are a few I have not heard which I suspect are killer such as TAD and Oswall Mill. Wharfedale has an interesting monitor with AMT TWEETER / Dome mid range / small woofer for a grand which is really nice but I think the LRS still beats it over all ..... but if you are short on space check it out - alot of bang for the buck !
- RE: all I am saying about the Magnepans is ....... - triamp 01:59:24 02/05/23 (0)
  It's not so much a "boxy resonance" - cabinets, even ported ones, absorb the energy of the cone and then release it over time into the room, distorting the bass transients and textures in the time domain. It's just physics. The energy pumped into the box by the cone has to go somewhere, and even if the box is super stiff and completely non-resonant, it's still going to store energy then release it back over some period of time. The least offensive of the monkey-coffin bass reproducers are well-made transmission line speakers which seem not to show this problem as mush as other box types.
  
  And it's not just the fact that there is a cone acting as the piston instead of a panel: open baffle subwoofers give you the closest match to "panel speaker" sub-bass around.
  
  I started with ESL-57's then set up tri-amped MG 3.6's using DEQX and then added Rhythmic/ GR servo open baffle subs, with another DEQX. (The DEQXs not only provide linear-phase crossovers, they also correct for amplitude response, phase and group delay.) So... yeah, there's a certain sound that I really love when there's no box.
  
  ==================================================
  Science doesn't care what you believe.
RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... - bluesy41 21:31:48 02/04/23 (14)
So do you believe that the bigger Magnepan's are not dynamic? If so listen again my friend and not at some audio store where they're not properly setup. You will be amazed.
- RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... - Davey 08:41:56 02/05/23 (13)
  It depends upon how you define "dynamic." :)
  Since Magnepan's are velocity sources and not pressure sources, they don't have the inherent physical capability of some other speakers.
  I don't anymore, but I've listened to some home speakers that were literally gut-wrenching and ear-abusing. Not an enjoyable experience, but something not physically possible with Magnepan speakers.
  Magnepan speakers are just like all speakers. They all have trade-offs.
  They don't have boxy resonances....but they do have panel resonances, complicated radiation characteristics, low efficiency, and various other things that are checkmarks in the bad column.
  Dave.
  
  Edits: 02/05/23 02/05/23
  - RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... - josh358 18:52:36 02/06/23 (9)
    That lateral crossover lobing is a killer. I'm still waiting for a line source that uses an array like the ESL-63.
    - RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... - Davey 09:11:57 02/07/23 (8)
      Yeah, it's complicated.
      
      In many ways, a full-range line-array setup like the IDS-25 would be a preferable setup.
      
      Dave.
      - RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... - josh358 08:11:12 02/08/23 (7)
        
        In Reply to: RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... posted by Davey on February 07, 2023 at 09:11:57
        
        It would be great, but how do you make a good driver that covers that range?
        A lateral M-T-M system would work pretty well too if you could get the central tweeter(s) narrow enough. One idea I've toyed with is a triple ribbon -- single magnet assembly with 1" midrange ribbons on either side of a narrow tweeter strip. You can't run an all aluminum ribbon that low without metal fatigue issues, but you could make an Apogee-style Mylar ribbon.
        
        RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... - InfinityApogee 11:38:47 02/08/23 (6)
        
        In Reply to: RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... posted by josh358 on February 08, 2023 at 08:11:12
        
        Josh, Get hold of a Apogee Scintilla MRT unit, its foil only ribbon and solve the issue, Its the best other than a FR unit
        
        RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... - josh358 23:40:58 02/09/23 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... posted by InfinityApogee on February 08, 2023 at 11:38:47
        
        As I understand it, the problem with the the foil midrange ribbons is that they get metal fatigue and fail. IIRC, someone from Apogee said that a high number of ribbon failures contributed to its demise. Years ago, I asked Mark Winey, and he said the same thing -- you can't make a robust one because of metal fatigue. (The Magnepan tweeter ribbons can also get it after several years if you play them at natural levels, but few people do. They last like forever at lower ones.)
        
        Regarding ribbon midranges... - MWE 06:34:43 02/11/23 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... posted by josh358 on February 09, 2023 at 23:40:58
        
        has anyone at Magnepan, to your knowledge, experimented with metals other than aluminum? I would think certain other metals would have significantly less fatigue problems than aluminum, while still being reasonably conductive. Aluminum has a well-known low fatigue tolerance. I ask these questions in the setting of being very far from highly knowledgeable on metallurgy.
        
        Mark in NC
        "The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
        
        Edits: 02/11/23
        
        RE: Regarding ribbon midranges... - josh358 18:41:14 02/11/23 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Regarding ribbon midranges... posted by MWE on February 11, 2023 at 06:34:43
        
        Possibly, but if they have, I've never heard about it. Mass is absolutely paramount here and that in and of itself places a limit on the metals that can be considered. But I'm no more a metallurgist than you are, so have no idea if there's something exotic out there.
        
        RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... - Roger Gustavsson 01:09:54 02/09/23 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... posted by InfinityApogee on February 08, 2023 at 11:38:47
        
        Doesn't the Apogee Scintilla MRT unit need a lot of power at a very low impedance?
        
        Check this out. - MWE 07:17:25 02/09/23 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... posted by Roger Gustavsson on February 09, 2023 at 01:09:54
        
        Xx
        Mark in NC
        "The thought that life could be better is woven indelibly into our hearts and our brains" -Paul Simon
        http://www.reality-audio.com/scintilla.html (Open in New Window)
        
        RE: Check this out. - InfinityApogee 13:49:28 02/09/23 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Check this out. posted by MWE on February 09, 2023 at 07:17:25
        
        Well I don't find them any worse than a Magnepan, a lot of the amps people are using here, will drive them just fine, UNLESS your death of course. I listen to mos music around 75 db :)
  - RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... - Ozzie 13:27:06 02/05/23 (2)
    Those radiation patterns, ok in the bass, helps to tame room lf resonances. Figure 8 pattern in the bass.
    - RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... - Davey 17:13:20 02/05/23 (1)
      I wasn't talking about bass radiation patterns.
      
      Dave.
      - Sorry Davey - Ozzie 18:17:43 02/05/23 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: the problem with Nagnepans .... posted by Davey on February 05, 2023 at 17:13:20
        
        "They don't have boxy resonances....but they do have panel resonances, complicated radiation characteristics, low efficiency, and various other things that are checkmarks in the bad column."
        
        I guess I ran with that.
Apples and oranges for sure. - grantv 21:27:42 02/04/23 (0)
But this is an oranges (or apples, whichever, but not both) forum...

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