Welcome! Need support, you got it. Or share your ideas and experiences.
Return to Planar Speaker Asylum
98.232.171.67
Some weeks ago, after listening extensively to my solid-state Conrad-Johnson MF2500 and my hybrid Alta Vista Audio NP100 (a Mike Elliott-modified Counterpoint SA-100) each drive my 1.6’s full-range, I concluded that bi-amping wasn’t in the cards for at least the time being, given the amps’ sound quality differences and level-matching issues. I decided instead to upgrade the passive crossover and leave the 1.6 driving chores to the NP100.I had enough Cardas binding posts, Symdex speaker cable (four individually-jacketed 22ga. solid-core copper wires in a twist configuration per run), and scrap plywood on hand to do the first-pass external enclosure, so all I had to acquire were the high-pass and shunt caps, the inductors, and—because I wanted quick cable interchange capability if I decided to go on a tweaky comparison binge—3/16” female disconnects to permit connection to the 1.6’s solder tabs.
Budget and an admitted bias (I don’t like ganged capacitor arrays because of the solder joints required and potential smearing issues) helped determine the choice of caps: Auricap 22mfd for the high-pass (sourced from SonicCraft) and Clarity SA 25mfd (a 630VDC physical monster available from Madisound) for the low-pass shunt. For the inductor--again, with budget in mind--I selected the Erse SuperQ 3.5mh 16-gauge iron core (source: Parts Express). A problematic choice, because its DCR is spec’d (at 0.2 ohms by Parts Express, 0.217 on the Erse website) at roughly half that of the stock 1.6 coil and posed a potential level-matching issue.
The Auricaps arrived first, quickly replaced the stock Solen array, and had about 50 hours’ playing time on them before UPS delivered the Clarity SA’s. The SuperQ inductor arrived about a week after that. For listening evaluations (initially restricted to CD and SACD for convenience) I used a variety of symphonic, opera, choral, jazz, vocal, and film scores, among them: the Fiedler/Wild Gershwin (Living Stereo SACD), Paavo Jarvi’s Prokofiev Romeo and Juliet suites (Telarc SACD), Ashkenazy’s Rachmaninoff Symphonic Dances (London CD), Tchakarov conducting Borodin’s Prince Igor (Sony CD), Ormandy’s Orff Carmina Burana (Sony CD), Bernstein’s 1989 Candide (DG CD), Thelonious Monk’s 5 by Monk by 5 (Analogue Productions SACD), Dave Brubeck’s Time Out (Sony SACD), Sarah Vaughan’s Gershwin Live (Columbia CD), Mel Torme’s The London Sessions (Audio Fidelity SACD), Jerry Goldsmith’s Film Scores (Telarc SACD), James Horner’s Sneakers (Columbia CD), Mancini’s Greatest Hits (Telarc CD), and Jerry Goldsmith’s L.A. Confidential (Varese Sarabande CD).
With just the Auricaps as the only upgraded components in the otherwise stock XO’s, the presentation initially exhibited a tad more openness and breadth in the soundstage. As they burned in, intra-soundstage space began to expand and voice, strings, woodwinds, and brass acquired a more nuanced, fuller-bodied cast. As neolith indicates at http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=mug&n=98709&highlight=crossover+frequency
the 1.6’s high-pass cutoff (3db down) is 1600 Hz. I suspect that what I heard as a more transparent, more developed-midrange (160Hz to 1300Hz) reflects a better “teasing-out” of partials--overtones which may or may not be whole even- or odd-order harmonics of the fundamentals of the instruments producing them—rendering vocal and instrumental timbre more accurate. But that wasn’t the end of it. After about 80 Auricap break-in hours (I didn’t keep exact track, and the Clarity SA shunts had been in the circuit about 30 hours), the top end seemed to break out of a straitjacket, suffusing the presentation with more air, imparting a near-filigreed character to chimes and brushes on cymbals. With that, space expanded again, particularly on large-scale orchestral and choral works, with consequently more detailed and three-dimensional placement and layering and the unmasking of previously obscured venue ambient cues. Moral: Don’t judge a new cap on your first listen.Does the low-pass shunt cap really make a difference? I’ve heard varying opinions on this, but I didn’t want to cheap out any more than I had to. And I’m glad I didn’t. Nor do I consider the $30 630VDC-rated 25mfd Clarity SA “fatty” overkill—certainly not after hearing the initial drum strike on the second track of the Goldsmith SACD after the SA had about 30 playing hours under its belt. With the MF2500 driving the 1.6’s, that drum strike would initiate a seismic-scale roll-up-the-concrete-floor delay. The less powerful (but in my estimation, more musically satisfying) NP100 pushed out the delay all the way to the listening chair, but not with the serial-thump impact of the 2500—not with the stock low-pass components in place, anyway. But with the Clarity SA (and the stock inductor), vibrational decay rolled up to the chair with a persuasive close-that-counts-in-horseshoes rumble.
I listened to the SA with the stock inductor for about 20 hours to get a feel for not only its bottom-end impact contribution but the overall tonal balance with the Auricap-Clarity combination in place. Then I replaced the stock inductor with the Erse SuperQ. And confirmed my suspicions about the lower DCR and how it might elevate the bass/mid panel’s response.
Bass impact? In spades. The NP100 was suddenly on steroids. With the Goldsmith, not only must the first drum strike have registered on a USGS seismograph 90 miles away, but the second as well. Same with the bass drum on the Horner Sneakers. But…
With bottom-end impact came a price I’m not willing to pay. The mids thickened. What had been nuanced transparency in voice and instrument was overlaid with a patina of chestiness that obscured timbre. Sarah Vaughan’s voice had an incredible range as it was, and she didn’t need the hormonal boost that renders throatiness subterranean. Moreover, male voice took on a near-shouty quality reminiscent of some mid-fi midrange horns I remember from long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away. The overall impression was that I was listening to a less-than-satisfactory mating of cones with panels.
The bottom line: The Auricaps and Clarity SA’s stay. So does the stock inductor for the time being, until I decide (and budget permits) whether to go Alpha-Core or the 10-gauge Solen Hepta-Litz air core with a DCR close to that of the stock unit. This isn’t a knock on the Erse. Rather, it’s a testament to the need to consider all the applicable parameters of a given component when you contemplate an upgrade.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
![]()
Edits: 07/17/08 07/17/08 07/17/08Follow Ups:
These comments are not intended to flack for any particular crossover-upgrade component or package but rather as general—and highly personal--observations on what a passive crossover upgrade brings to the Maggie quasi-ribbon table. PG’s point about the importance of component synergy is spot-on in my experience, so I won’t indulge in any cap- or coil-of-the-month hyperbole. Nor will I rap Magnepan’s knuckles for getting a product to market at a price point that represents very good value to the consumer seeking to enhance his or her musical enjoyment. Suffice it to say that I’m extremely pleased with what I’ve been hearing over the past several hours from both digital and vinyl playback with the upgrade combination I selected.Some listeners have tagged Maggies as “opaque” compared to cone-and-dome systems. Whatever the merits of that assessment, I suspect that at least some of it can be laid at the door of the stock crossover. As I’ve indicated elsewhere in this thread, the upgrade leaves the stock configuration sounding constipated and smeared. These are relative terms, of course, but the magnitude of the upgrade’s improvement is far from subtle. The panels sound quicker across the frequency spectrum and more resolving as well as revealing of inner and previously-masked detail. That’s transparency mated with improved musical flow (or, if you prefer, pace, rhythm, and timing). Coupled with a greater sense of top-end air and the fleshing out of instrumental and vocal timbre which results from a far more detailed exposition of partials, these attributes enhance significantly the illusion of reach-into-the-soundstage palpability. And the soundstage itself has expanded (and the listening room walls “disappeared”) to the point where you can suspend disbelief damned near sufficiently to imagine yourself actually in Manhattan Center, Abbey Road, Boston Symphony Hall, the Concertgebouw, or San Francisco’s Warfield Theater on well-recorded material.
Massed choral voices can present a daunting challenge on their own, and when coupled with Leonard Bernstein’s at-times astringent as well as “busy” and raucous score for the 1989 performance of his revised “Candide” on a DG CD, a downright ear-splitting glassy mess if the speakers (to say nothing of the rest of the system) can’t cope with its demands, including the diverse placement of a number of individual male and female choirs (particularly with the grisly celebratory “What A Day for an Auto-da-Fe”). I’d achieved what I considered a fairly satisfactory resolution with the still-somewhat-brash-sounding work when I had my SACD/CD player modified some years ago, but it was the 1.6 crossover upgrade that literally opened the stage up, layered it in believable proportions, parsed appropriately the positioning of the choirs and soloists as well as the timbral complexity of the orchestral accompaniment, and rendered the overall presentation grand-scale three-dimensional--without rounding off the intentionally hard edges. A truly “breakout” demonstration indicating what the panels are capable of when the crossover doesn’t get in the way. Not even a passive with relatively moderately priced components.
So much for opacity. And I haven’t even reframed them yet.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
![]()
Don't worry. I understand your enthusiasm (as does each of us who has been through this), and it's an awesome thing! I enjoyed reading both evaluations.
"So much for opacity. And I haven’t even reframed them yet."
Oh, just wait - they're only much better now. After you reframe them, they will be completely healed!!!
![]()
"Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
You're not the only one. My wife equates what I call "brief" to what DUI files.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
![]()
Thanks for sharing your experiences, Jim. I noticed some boost near the crossover point when I first started experimenting with active biamping, but I can simply adjust the crossover points to fix that! :)
I was considering upgrading my mid/hi passive crossover, but I've decided instead to save up for a 3-way active system. Biamping transformed my Maggies like nothing else, and I'm excited to see what one amp per driver can do for dynamics and clarity.
-- Nils
It's been an ear-opener here, Nils. I'll be interested to hear your reaction to triamping when you get there.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
![]()
...isn't the inductor in the picture a Sledgehammer? I have both the Erse Super Q and the Sledgehammer and that inductor in you pick, right down to it's extra long leads, looks like a dead ringer for the inductors the folks over at Madisound sent me.
![]()
The Erse back in the loop...with the loose lead shown for emphasis.Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
![]()
Now all us over-picky people are set straight and happy!
Rod
The inductor in the pic is the stock 1.6 inductor...taken before I resolved my loose lead problem and reinstalled the Erse.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
![]()
...after I saw pics of other Maggie inductors, that is :) . The MMG inductor's are definately smaller than the 1.6's inductor OR the Sledgehammer.
I think you are correct Rickey. I've got Sledgehammers in my MMGs, but have used Erse in other projects. The Erse have a rather unique clear plastic housing. Here are pics.
http://www.erse.cc/coils/superq/esq1.jpg
http://www.madisound.com/catalog/images/imagecache/120x74_SL2.0.jpg
FWIW, I think they are almost equivalent functionally. I doubt I'd be able to hear a difference anyway!
Rod
That Clarity cap is one fat sum bich! When I saw the picture first, I thought it was one of Jupiters new speaker caps. I may try it as a substitute for the obbligatos I now use. (if they fit in the boxes that is, I need a 30uf!)
I think you will find you get better bass results from the copper foil inductors, whether alpha core or jantzen, if and when you try them.
Some of your problems may also still be phase issues, which (IMHO) is due to driving the 2 voice coils seperately. If you'd like to try my design, just email me any time.
Thanks for the report, and let us know how it breaks in.
It's all about the music...
Thanks, PG.
Since posting my mea culpa, I've had the opportunity to re-listen to a few of the evaluation tracks and concluded that the Clarity's loose lead was the culprit. At this point, the Erse appears to integrate well with the rest of the crossover package, adding a touch of foundation without altering perceived frequency balance to any appreciable degree. If anything, the soundstage appears to have expanded another tad both laterally and fore-and-aft, and better bass-to-lower-midrange definition has enhanced the believabilty of the imaging. I don't know if or how much more "cooking" time the caps may need, but right now the overall presentation makes the stock configuration sound afflicted with heavy doses of constipation and smear.
The Clarity SA 25mfd sits on a 3/16"-thick lossy-compound isolation strip atop 3/4" plywood and required virtually an entire 11" cable tie to secure it. The 30mfd is listed as 65mm long (same as the 25) on Madisound's site, and its diameter at 62mm, 5mm greater than the 25's.
Thanks for the offer. Though I don't hear any glaring phase issues at this point, I may take you up on it.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
![]()
A loose lead will do that. You need to be careful with that because I lost an amp one day because of that.... at least everyone involved thinks it was that :^ )
And what a can of worms you opened! I had tinkered in my mind only about doing some playing a few months ago but decided against it, because what I had originally done I liked very much, and so did everyone who tried or got it.
But between problems getting stock and some of the reviews I've read about other things, I want to try some different caps. I suppose I have to now, but I really didn't want everyone who already tried it to feel (if I report a better parts design) that they now had to "upgrade".
So I guess I have to keep my mouth shut. Yeah, there's always a first time for everything :^ )
If you ever want the schematic however just ask. Nothing beats a unified, full range driver. (and no, the parts you bought are not useable :^ )
It's all about the music...
Since I don't want to pry that worm can open any further, I won't mention that (if you didn't already know it) Clarity has introduced, or is about to introduce, a "premium" cap, the MR. Don't know the price structure or when the MR's will be available, so it's probably a good thing that I didn't tell you about them.
With respect to upgraditis in general, I tend to agree with a point implicit in Mando's post a short time ago about taking time to optimize existing system setup (and giving it a good extensive listen) before hitching a ride on the something-new-every-month merry-go-round. Like Claude Rains--but far more sincerely--I'm shocked, shocked at what I'm hearing emanate from the 1.6's with the new crossovers. The $200 investment in parts has already more than paid for itself. I've not had to hire a contractor to move the walls outward or put up with any in-progress construction mess (and for all I know they may creep out even further after some more burn-in) as the virtual image has expanded and assumed more reach-into and finely-textured palpability. I'll reframe the speakers, but beyond that I expect I'll shift into an "if it ain't broke..." mode and spend the time just enjoying the music and the newly emerging nuances within it that I haven't heard before. That, after all, is what I got into this hobby for in the first place.
We'll see how long that resolution lasts. :-)
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
![]()
No, that's safe to say. I have have found (and many "cap shootout's" have born out) that the top of the line one isn't always the best sounding one. Best maybe if you want your ears to bleed, or you want to hear info that isn't there in real life, you know, "audiophile" grade stuff :^ )Short of buying the $800 Duelund caps (or whatever it is they cost) I have found all caps are a trade off and you need to balance the right pair to get what you want, as you won't get it from a single entity. It's more a matter of finding the right synergy than just getting "the top of the line" ones and throwing them in.
I agree too much playing leads to nothing but unhappiness, and it isn't just audio. My best friend had a 67 Cougar when we were young, and he started tweaking it with new carbs etc.. At first, when he did the simple, logical upgrade it ran great. But then he had to get the "bigger, more barrelled carb" and change this and change that and finally he reached a point where it ran like pure crap because all he did was replace every part with the most extreme one he could.
That said if you put your drivers in wooden frames, all I can tell you is you ain't heard nothing yet. But before reaching that point you should try turning them and tilting them if you have not done so. (just swap sides to keep the tweeters outboard, and run the wires to the front and stick 2-3 DVD's under each front foot) You might not like it, but the majority of the people who try it do so it's worth a shot, and it's free.
Thanks again for the kick start :^ )
It's all about the music...
I'm not sure whether you should thank or curse me for the kick-start. We'll see what time tells. In the meantime, I'm just going to settle in and enjoy--and prolong--the moment until I'm ready to turn on the table saw and the router. Given what I'm hearing now, that may be a while.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
![]()
Others have said it, but let me say it again. I really appreciate your doing this step by step and giving each change a chance before going to the next. This will give each of us a much better idea of the relative merit of each mod. It will add much to our collective knowlege.
Rod
Glad it might help. I expect to let the caps (i.e., the Clarity SA, since it was the last one in) burn in for at least 150 hours before I start with the reframe/rebase. I may even do a pilot rebase project (i.e., replace the stock feet with a double-sided bolt-on support mated to outrigger feet) first to determine if what I have in mind has any audible impact on performance with the stock frame still in place.
I have the time, so what the heck.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
![]()
All kidding aside about the appearance of your new xo's. Very nice report.
I don't want to seem like I am disagreeing with what you hear but I want to make some comments that may or may not help.
Changing the DCR of the coil from 0.4 to 0.2 ohms will have little effect on the crossover frequency and will only raise the output (i.e. lower the insertion loss) by about 0.5 db. The big change that results is the damping power or the grip on your woofer, which is just what you experienced. Mart has a nice article on the effect of Rg on the damping power ( Click here ).
I am not able to explain the muddiness that you now have. I have always thought the big difference in coils was related to the DCR but I am probably mistaken. The quality factor of a coil is given by Q = (2*pi*L)/R so a lower DCR should result in a more ideal coil. Using a iron core increases L for a given R but it may saturate at high currents, defeating any gains. I know several members have used Sledgehammer (iron core) coils with good results and I believe the stock coils are also iron core as well so I don't know if this is the explanation for what you hear. FWIW I use Alphacores for my mid-treble xo's (IIIa).
I look forward to your experience with Alphacores.
Once again, a very nice review.
I may be an egoist but at least I don't talk about other people.
At least I think I have. And I feel like an idiot.I decided to give the Erses another shot. So I started to unscrew that elegant wire nut connection in the right-channel low-pass section to remove its stock inductor. The coil lead was connected securely enough, so was the lead to the speaker terminal, but the cap's somewhat shorter stripped lead, though also apparently connected during playback with the stock inductor, slipped out a little too quickly. And the light went on. Could I have been running a 6db/oct. first-order on the right channel bass when the Erse had been in previously? You see the implications. Chestiness, muddiness, bleed-in to the upper midrange, loss of locational precision, yada, yada.
In went the Erse, and I made sure the three-lead connection was secure. Same on the left channel. Then I put Sarah back on. Yep, the Sarah I know and love, with just a touch more low-end foundation and none of the smeary patina I'd heard before. The orchestral accompaniment sounded airier and more spacious, everything where it ought to be.
I have more listening to do with the Erses in, but sounds at this point as if they'll stay.
Guess I have get out the WBT solder, after all. My apologies to Erse, to the concept of DCR, and to everyone who I put through my previously-read nonsense.
Hell, I know better. And your post got me back on the right track. Thanks.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
![]()
I was wondering how a slight decrease in resistance, usually a good thing, would cause such a drastic degradation in sound, but was hessitant to say anything since I'm not there. The Sledgehammer inductors I used made me very happy. Glad the mystery has been solved!
Rod
It was a relief to pinpoint it, Rod. Something I should have caught much earlier by paying more attention to connection fundamentals. So don't be hesitant next time if you suspect that I may have made a bonehead move. :-)
Glad you're happy with the Sledgehammers.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
![]()
Very helpful. As was your cited post on the 1.6 crossover parameters. And I don't think PG has to worry about crossover fit, finish, or appearance, either. The caps and coil sit on lossy-compound vibration damping strips.The Erse SuperQ (used, BTW, in VMPS speakers) is claimed not to saturate below 3KHz up to fairly high levels due to its large laminar core, so I don't think that's what causing what I hear. I'd equate the effect to that of a broadband tone control that elevates the bass/mid panel's response relative to the quasi-ribbon to the point of obscuring delicate midrange detail and reducing imaging and locational precision. Improved damping may explain it (sidebar: ignoring Rg for a moment, the modded Counterpoint's spec'd DF is ~90), but it's still an annoying artifact, especially in view of the magic I'm experiencing with the new caps.
Thanks again for the feedback.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
![]()
It sounds like the solution may be Magnestands or Grant's Mye Stands. It sounds like the added bass response is shaking the panels and that excess energy needs to be drained or stablized. Whether you believe the argument that stands stabilize the panels or, as PG maintains, the excessive vibration is drained by wood or stands, the benefits are going to be great. I have yet to hear anyone say there was anything less than a huge improvement with Mye stands or Magnestands. Being a cheapskate, I am using my own DIY stands and the difference is quite noticeable.
I may be an egoist but at least I don't talk about other people.
One reason budget was a consideration in the cap-coil mix was the need to leave enough for some Home Depot red oak to rebuild from the ground up. And I wanted to hear what an XO upgrade brought to the table before I started on the reframe/rebase. It'll be a strutless wonder with outrigger feet (shown at the link below).
In the meantime, I'm keeping the Erses to see if that does the trick.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
![]()
Jim, I’m glad to hear the Erse is finally working out well. They definitely look good “on paper”, but of course the ears are the final test. Your methodical approach to evaluating each components character in the mix has been very interesting to follow. I’m eager to hear your impressions of the reframe project too. Have fun with it.
-Joe
They're not that big!
Thanks, Joe. The 1.6's are chewing on Elmer Bernstein's film score for The Magnificent Seven (the Phoenix Symphony on a well-engineered Koch CD) as I write this, and Erse and Company are doing a bang-up job with the timpani, bongos, Mexican log drum, et al that permeate much of the work. What catches my ear among other things is the striking improvement in the rendering of attack and decay in space across the frequency spectrum, fostering a far more convincing illusion of "being there." Will be interesting to see how the reframe builds on it.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
![]()
Jim, Great to hear someone is at pretty much that exact same upgrade stage as me with their maggies ;-) I'm just running in my new passive Xover on my 2.6Rs - and it's sounding wonderful so far. I have about 50 hours on it. Building it all in one go I don't have that same level of detail as to exactly what components are contributing what sound improvement as you do, but I did it at the same time as my delam reglue and just wasn't willing to wait to do a bit at a time ;-).
To clear up a couple of things mentioned above. Just with regard to cores - the laminar core will actually only provide a lower saturation flux density than the same sized ferrite core, due to the material difference and the space between the laminations (% core material). What the laminations do provide however is lower core hysteresis due to the minimization of eddy currents in the core, which will reduce distortion. Steel is used for ease of manufacture.
I have converted my coils to North Creek 12AWG air cores for the bass panel series inductors and 12AWG Alphacore foil inductor for the ribbon bypass. Focusing on the bass - These NC Air coils have provided a noticable increase in bass depth as well as increased tightness. The upgrade has massively enhanced clarity & detail throughout, as well as sounstage depth, back to front layering and soundstage width.
I do notice now that there is more panel vibration though at low frequecies which I intend to remedy with some stands and eventually something resembling my 'ultimate maggie upgrade' mentioned in a earlier thread to stiffen up the whole frame.
On the Cap front, for the bass I'm using a 75uF Ansar Polyprop (only single polyprop I could get in that size in the UK) and for the ribbon 33uf - a 30uF Ansar bypassed by a 3uf Jupiter. I'm then using a 2uf Jupiter as the outside bypass (see the 2.6r Xover diagram in my previous thread for details). I'm also using a Mills 12W resistor in the treble Xover.
I'm very interested in your reviews of the different caps, I chose mine mostly based on reviews & price (given that I couldn't try them out) but I'm thinking of trying out others like Duelund copper foils, Mundorf silver oils and Dynamicaps at some stage (If I ever have some spare cash ;-P) I'll keep everyone posted on the results.
BTW - I used Eichmann Cable pods as speaker connections, and they are fantastic!! Great to work with and well built for a very reasonable price - I paid about £17 ($33) per pair (they come in packs of 4). Much cheaper than WBT or Cardas here in the UK.
Congrats on the uprade & cap experimentation, and the great review. I'll be putting up a proper review of my Xover upgrade once it's finished running in & I have done some 'serious' listenning :-) and tear myself away from my system long enough to write it.
Thanks for the clarification on laminar cores.
I can appreciate your desire to get your 2.6's back up and running all at once. I'll be interested in whether, and if, you hear anything change as your caps log in more hours, so looking forward to your review--though, despite appearances to the contrary, it was tough tearing myself away from my listening chair long enough to punch out the keystrokes on mine.
Jim
http://www.geocities.com/jimtranr/index.html
![]()
FAQ |
Post a Message! |
Forgot Password? |
|
||||||||||||||
|
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: