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Planar Speaker Asylum

How do PG'ed MMG's compare to speaker like linkwitz orion?

208.191.181.9

i see alot of people either comparing them to bigger maggies or to closed box speakers. how do they compare against a great OB speaker like the orion?

p.s. i'm new to AA but i've enjoyed lurking.

Andres

Follow Ups:

RE: How do PG'ed MMG's compare to speaker like linkwitz orion? - Peter Gunn 19:42:50 01/10/08 (16)
To be honest, I think this is a question that can yield nothing useful.

They are not the same thing, they present music in different ways, and even if more people preferred one over the other, it doesn't mean you would agree with them. Also, given what the Orion costs, it would be more fair to compare it to my modded 1.6, (which is still less even if you don't buy the amps for the orion)and IMHO the 1.6 is clearly better.

I only heard an Orion once, it was some time ago, and I wasn't overly moved. It did some things nice but I found it's presentation sterile compared to a magnepans, more or less the same feeling I had with the Alons I had which are very similar to them. The detail level is excellent, but while extremely graphic the sounds just don't sound "alive", if that makes sense. Kind of how I used to feel listening to Krell amps.

Also, given that if you buy used MMG's the cost with the mod is about $1,800, that's what, still well over 4 grand less than the Orions? You could take $1,500 of that 4 grand and buy Dukes Swarm subwoofer system and then I would invite anyone to compare them to the Orions. (And you'll pocket 3 grand on top of it) If you can do the mod yourself you'll save even more.

But again, you might still prefer the Orions. Until just recently everyone preferred my modded maggies but even my streak ended. That's why there's chocolate and vanilla. My advice is go listen to them or similar types of speakers and decide which one is the one that moves you.

It's all about the music...
- RE: How do PG'ed MMG's compare to speaker like linkwitz orion? - kappa546@yahoo.com 09:33:47 01/11/08 (15)
  I'm a huge fan of good dipoles so you more or less answered my question. I suspect the livelyness you describe is a function of the surface area of the maggies compared to the conventional drivers, despite also being dipole. However i wouldn't consider the cost as much because very similar systems to the Orions can be made for less than a stock 1.6 costs. My problem isn't auditioning orions rather than auditioning modded mmg's or modded maggies of any kind. any chance you've worked on some for anyone in the Austin/San Antonio/Houston, TX area? if so, maybe you could check with them and ask if they're willing to let a fellow enthusiast take a listen.
  
  The more and more i read and consider the mod on the maggies, the more i'm deterred from my next project. i was considering building something similar to the orions except with a closed box subwoofer on the bottom, and having a wave guide loaded tweeter to produce a more constant directivity and more uniform power response.
  - RE: How do PG'ed MMG's compare to speaker like linkwitz orion? - samandnoah 15:54:02 01/11/08 (7)
    Well, I'm in Austin, and I'm on the waitlist for this spring! :) So if you're in no rush, I should have a pair of PG's modded MMGs by May.
    
    Rich
    - Another Count Me In - DLB 11:35:55 01/12/08 (0)
      I live in Waco and have MG20.1s but also would love to hear your "Gunned" speakers when they come in.
      
      DLB
      "Music is framed in silence."
    - RE: i definitely want to audition them. - kappa546 19:30:12 01/11/08 (0)
      just let me know when you get them. where are you located?
    - RE: Gotta hear 'em. - Travis 18:42:03 01/11/08 (4)
      I'm 60 miles southeast of Austin in La Grange.
      
      Count me in.
      
      Be-Bop and Mahler
      - RE: Gotta hear 'em. - rluciano 09:37:12 01/12/08 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Gotta hear 'em. posted by Travis on January 11, 2008 at 18:42:03
        
        I am in central Austin 78703 and would love to hear them. While I have 20.1s, my sister in law is building a house and planning her media room and smaller Maggies are on her list of choices. It would be great to hear what you can get out of them.
        
        Listening in Austin - samandnoah 20:00:38 01/15/08 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Gotta hear 'em. posted by rluciano on January 12, 2008 at 09:37:12
        
        OK, the interest is growing. I live in central Austin (78756). I'm scheduled for mid April, which means I should have them back by May. So there's still a bit of a wait for everyone.
        
        So here's what I'll do. Once I get them back, have had a chance to set them up, and to listen to them, I'll post a note here. At that time I'll set up a GTG for those of you who are interested.
        
        Rich
        
        RE: Listening in Austin - kappa546 08:03:45 01/16/08 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Listening in Austin posted by samandnoah on January 15, 2008 at 20:00:38
        
        sounds good!
        
        RE: Listening in Austin - rluciano 07:26:11 01/19/08 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Listening in Austin posted by kappa546 on January 16, 2008 at 08:03:45
        
        By that time I should have my listening room pretty well setup, maybe we can back to back the Gunned MMGs versus my bi-amped 20.1s. I am in 78703, not far maybe 15 minutes from to the to be Gunned MMGs.
  - RE: How do PG'ed MMG's compare to speaker like linkwitz orion? - Peter Gunn 12:07:30 01/11/08 (5)
    You have to love the irony here. I could not have been more impartial (or accurate I think) when I told you it doesn't matter what anyone likes, it only matters what you like and you need to figure that out, because 99 people may prefer one thing but you may be the 1 guy who likes the other.
    
    So someone reads that and says "civil discourse is pretty rare around here" and he tells you to go to another site so you can get someone elses jaded opinion. It never gets old.... Don't listen to him, them or me. Use your own ears whenever possible. It seems inside you know what it is you like. I'd listen to the little man inside.
    
    Sadly, Texas is still Magnestandless so I can't refer you to anyone. If you'd like to email owners directly for their input let me know and I'll have them contact you.
    
    I'd be happy to give you the XO and construction tips, but are you even sure which model it is you want just yet? MMG, 12 or 1.6? Perhaps you should talk to some owners first before you decide which one to build, if doing this is even the route you choose. If and when you decide on a course and it happens to be this one I'd be happy to get you started on your own build. As the poster above noted it wouldn't help you now anyway, nobody has parts in stock.
    
    Wait a minute, that discourse sounded pretty civil and reasonable. How's this instead: Why don't you go take a #&%* walk off a @&*! short pier you tone deaf piece of $#&*. Info, I'll give you &$@%* info, right up your @$$!
    
    Whew, that was a close one. It would terrible if all the pre-conceived notions around here were threatened :^ )
    
    It's all about the music...
    - I rest my case... - mdl 14:54:49 01/11/08 (4)
      I rest my case. Once the poster appeared to be serious, I recommended he look at the other side of the coin and low and behold, you start the act up again. You said a lot more than listen for yourself, and the poster made some statements that indicated talking to other resources, if he was serious, would be valuable. There are technical aspects that could be discussed in your post, but there is no value in it. I doubt I am alone in people who just STFU around your posts because it becomes acrimonious and useless.
      
      As for civil discourse, it wasn't that long ago you told another poster he would have made a great Nazi working at Auschvitz putting people in ovens simply for having a differing opinion! Civil discourse indeed...
      - wait a second (I tried to resist commenting here, but could not) - wazoo 06:05:45 01/12/08 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I rest my case... posted by mdl on January 11, 2008 at 14:54:49
        
        By way of reply to the OP, PG correctly suggested that the opinions of others (including his own) have limited usefulness. He also stated that the Orions and the Gunned Maggies are *very* different speakers - and they are. It all comes down to what one values as a listener and the *only* way to really know which one he'd prefer is to listen to both (which, in this case, is a fairly difficult proposition).
        
        It doesn't serve this forum well to rehash (out of context no less) what this person said about that person, or to invite conflict with general statements about how uncivil such discussions usually are. Can't we have differences of opinion without letting it degrade into acrimonious assaults? Each new thread is an opportunity to avoid this kind of banter.
        
        Posts like this one (I'm talking about mine) are just a waste of space - sorry.
        
        "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
      - Dude, it's YOU... - DragonEars 21:14:04 01/11/08 (1)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I rest my case... posted by mdl on January 11, 2008 at 14:54:49
        
        "I rest my case", "you start the act up again", "STFU", "it becomes acrimonious and useless", "I tend to not get into this stuff as civil discourse is pretty rare around here", "If you want some serious comments on this, go to".
        
        MDL, you haven't posted here in a month and your first posts in this forum this year are to ride PG's ass.
        
        And... yes, you of course have the right to your opinion.
        And... yes, I'm picking on you.
        And... yes, PG is a big boy and can certainly stick up for himself, I'm just saying his contributions are appreciated. Many of us value PG's information and humor.
        
        Either you're a stalker or have a little teenage crush on PG.
        
        Hey PG, you should either get a restraining order or kiss him! Eeeewww! :-)
        
        RE: Dude, it's YOU... - Jesuscookies 21:51:06 01/11/08 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Dude, it's YOU... posted by DragonEars on January 11, 2008 at 21:14:04
        
        Full tounge, or I am not any paying admission fee... :)
      - LOL - Peter Gunn 15:36:24 01/11/08 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: I rest my case... posted by mdl on January 11, 2008 at 14:54:49
        
        So what, like every 3 months you rise from the crypt and do everything you can to contradict every post I make and then call me the problem?
        
        "Once the poster appeared to be serious, I recommended he look at the other side of the coin" - Did you read my post? I told him that BEFORE you did, that he should hear both, or people that own both, and decide for himself. Then you replied saying he'll never get a fair answer from anyone here, and you told him exactly what I did. The only point of your reply was getting the smart assed dig in. This is exactly how you operated before.
        
        You and the other guy were having a grand old time kicking me on the ground (when both of you were and still are oblivious about what you were arguing about) and when I defended myself you both started crying how mean I was. What's more you again have your "facts" and quote entirely wrong. (and your spelling)
        
        "I doubt I am alone in people who just STFU around your posts because it becomes acrimonious and useless." - More lying BS. Hey, here's a newsflash. I have tried to be nothing but the best friend I can be to all the friendly people on here, and to help them freely any time I can. If I make a post, it often gets dozens if not hundreds or replies, and in fact if I don't post for a while people have written me asking if I'm OK! So again, another lie from you. In any event I get lots of private emails from people here and I really do know what they think about me...... and you.
        
        It's all about the music...
  - If you are really serious.. - mdl 11:24:10 01/11/08 (0)
    I tend to not get into this stuff as civil discourse is pretty rare around here when it comes to mods (I think many people stay away for this reason; and it has been done to death). I recommend you go to the Orion forum to get the other perspective. What has been stated here is pretty dubious, and taking the Orions and putting a sealed woofer on the bottom defeats a major design point.
    
    If you want some serious comments on this, go to the Orion forum.
RE: How do PG'ed MMG's compare to speaker like linkwitz orion? - Davey 18:35:23 01/10/08 (10)
The only person who can meaningfully answer that question is you.

I will say one thing about Linkwitz Orion's though. They are available before 2009. :)

Dave.
- RE: How do PG'ed MMG's compare to speaker like linkwitz orion? - Peter Gunn 19:21:52 01/10/08 (9)
  "They are available before 2009"
  
  That's actually a good one. :^ )
  
  I could not empathise more about that, but the only recourse is expansion, which means much higher prices, and then on top of it all the custom aspects vanish - no fancy boxes, everything the same as every other, no personal contact with the client, in other words mass produced schlock. I can't and won't do that. It's hokey, but to me each one is a personal expression for each individual owner. Sadly time is the nature of that beast.
  
  I would hope that would make people appreciate them more as well.
  :^ )
  
  It's all about the music...
  - RE: How do PG'ed MMG's compare to speaker like linkwitz orion? - Davey 16:58:57 01/11/08 (8)
    I can appreciate your position....kind of. However, a service company in just about any other industry who maintained a year long backlog would be considered not very well run. Admittedly, this is a special case.
    
    How 'bout posting all the instructions for modifications on your website so the handy fellas who don't want to wait a year can do their own?? There are plenty of folks who would prioritize the performance ahead of the looks/craftsmanship. More Gunn'd speakers in the field could do nothing but improve your reputation eh?
    
    Dave.
    - for the handy folks, all it takes is an email - wazoo 05:41:14 01/12/08 (1)
      I'm dead serious. Send PG an email with a question about building your own frames or crossover and you will get an answer - 30 questions get 30 answers (and maybe a little more). I'm speaking from experience. I was serious about trying my hand at it and PG was incredibly helpful. Of course, he gave me a bit of grief (all in good humor) about my weird idea of building hybrids, but he also encouraged me with words of praise for my effort. I cannot thank him enough for his help.
      
      As far as his cottage 'industry' is concerned, there is no solution that I can imagine. Just remember the maxim, "All good things come to those who wait." He is not a unique case in regard to his waiting list either. There are plenty of craftsmen around the country who build various things in much the same manner as he, and they all have waiting lists - some of which dwarf his by no small measure. What *is* unique is that PG will actually tell you how you can do it yourself - he keeps nothing secret.
      
      "Jazz is not dead - it just smells funny" FZ ♬
      - RE: for the handy folks, all it takes is an email - Davey 09:05:14 01/12/08 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: for the handy folks, all it takes is an email posted by wazoo on January 12, 2008 at 05:41:14
        
        I musta missed that email offer. Thanks.
        
        Dave.
    - RE: How do PG'ed MMG's compare to speaker like linkwitz orion? - Peter Gunn 20:24:06 01/11/08 (5)
      Well yes, but I'm a person not an industry.
      
      Second, I am a period woodworker. If you went to a major period woodworker and wanted to commision a piece, the odds are he'd tell you "Wonderful, I can start on it this coming October...". When you are dealing with hands on one of a kind things, time is time. There is no way to short cut that. Almost every successful tradesman I ever knew who did all the work himself had a backlog of some degree. There's one guy who forges PA longrifles by hand and it's like a 7 year wait to get one from him.
      
      I do plan to have a page with that info, but doing that takes time which I have not had. I have given the info out freely to everyone who has aksed for it so far however. Hopefull within a month it will be done.
      
      I'm surprised Redwood hasn't suggested I get a Keebler tree full of mulleted midgets building maggie frames :^ )
      
      It's all about the music...
      - RE: period woodworker backlogs - rluciano 09:40:37 01/12/08 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How do PG'ed MMG's compare to speaker like linkwitz orion? posted by Peter Gunn on January 11, 2008 at 20:24:06
        
        I have a wonderful custom furniture woodworker craftsman in central Texas and his backlog ranges from 1-2 months to 18 months. If you want craftsmanship, sometimes you have to wait...
      - WTF's a "Keebler tree", Yanqui? :-)) nt - andyr 03:46:10 01/12/08 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: How do PG'ed MMG's compare to speaker like linkwitz orion? posted by Peter Gunn on January 11, 2008 at 20:24:06
        
        .
        
        RE: WTF's a "Keebler tree", Yanqui? :-)) nt - Peter Gunn 07:34:25 01/12/08 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: WTF's a "Keebler tree", Yanqui? :-)) nt posted by andyr on January 12, 2008 at 03:46:10
        
        C'mon, you expect us all to believe you don't know?
        
        Little people can have 3 jobs: 1- make shoes for the shoemaker at night 2: work for santa 3: bake cookies in a tree
        
        It's all about the music...
        
        Ernie's reply.. - RickeyM 21:46:53 01/12/08 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: WTF's a "Keebler tree", Yanqui? :-)) nt posted by Peter Gunn on January 12, 2008 at 07:34:25
        
        Quote: If you stay outta tha' cookie biz, we'll stay outta tha' speaker frame biz.
        
        Elves would mop the floor (prduction wise) with any "Mullet Midgets" you might care to show up with, period!
        
        Aaah, thanks, PG ... - andyr 13:17:23 01/12/08 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: WTF's a "Keebler tree", Yanqui? :-)) nt posted by Peter Gunn on January 12, 2008 at 07:34:25
        
        Polish folk lore, eh?
        
        Regards from God'sown. :-))
        
        Andy
RE: How do PG'ed MMG's compare to speaker like linkwitz orion? - kappa546@yahoo.com 18:04:05 01/10/08 (0)
i'm sorry, maybe i was a little too vague. i understand the technical and design principles of the speaker, i was referring more at the sound. i've read how "my gunned mmg's blow away these vandersteens!" etc... i wanted to get an opinion from someone who has experience with an excellent open baffle design like the orion.
I think there's a big cost & complexity difference ... - andyr 17:35:23 01/10/08 (0)
With the MMGs/SMGs, you have a passive speaker that only needs one amp - although one which ideally has several 100w of power. It comes as a finished product.

The Orion is a 3-way active system which ideally uses 4 x 50w stereo amps (1 for each Peerless woofer, 1 for the mid-range and 1 for the tweeter) each side. And it's DIY.

It can be bought as a finished product but that makes it even more expensive.

Regards,

Andy
What are your current speakers? - Travis 17:31:38 01/10/08 (2)
.....since you haven't posted your system.

Be-Bop and Mahler
- RE: What are your current speakers? - kappa546@yahoo.com 18:31:56 01/10/08 (1)
  my system is really simple at the moment. i have a panny xr-55 biamping a set of Seas Thor speakers.
  - RE: Gunned MGs vs Orions - BillMilosz 05:30:29 01/13/08 (0)
    The topic perhaps should be "Cone/dome point source speakers vs. planar and / or line arrays"
    
    There are some real differences in "presentation" of sound in comparing "point source" vs. "line arrays" or panels. A Magneplanar has a totally different way of interacting with the space around it especially at mid & high frequencies. A Magneplanar, like any "tall source" speaker, tends not to dbounce much sound off the floor or ceiling. Plus, unles you are pretty far away, the loudness of a "tall source" does NOT fall off by inverse square law the way a "point source" speaker does, these two things alone make a Magneplanar a totally different sound experience, not to mention driver linearity, amplitude, phase or transient behavior.
    
    I think one of the BIGGEST differences is how a Magneplanar or other "tall source" PRESENTS sound to you- because of the differing spatial radiation angles between a "tall source" and "point source" speaker you will IMMEDIATELY hear that they are QUITE different, even though detail or frequency balance etc might be about the same for each, at least within an order of magnitude.
    
    Planar speakers sound QUITE different. If you like the way they "project" sound, you just do and you probably are not terribly fond of the "smaller" sound of a typical single tweeter, mid and LF driver.
    
    This spatial aspect may be the BIGGEST difference that you will hear; gunned vs. non-gunned, etc will make less of a difference in sound than just the simple change from a small, closely spaced group of drivers vs. sound coming from a large vertical panel. The Gunn mods, crossover mods, tri-amping etc. give a quite different sound- but perhaps not as great a "jump" in sound as you get when you go from a quasi-point source to a large panel.
    
    So, go listen to some panels and see if you like the sound. Some people- like me- are just crazy about it. (Or possibly just CRAZY, I leave it up to posterity to decide which...)

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