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As part of revisiting and updating my short survey of classical DVD-Audios from a year and a half ago, I was also asked to try to put into words just exactly what it is about DVD-Audio I prefer to SACD. I’ll try to describe this in the context of the more outstanding individual releases discussed below.It’s been disheartening that more hasn’t been released in the DVD-A format since my initial postings. If it weren’t for Naxos and Silverline, we wouldn’t have much to choose from at all – and yet, for the most part, those labels are not producing the highest quality releases of which the format is capable, with the possible exceptions of the Naxos DVD-A of the Bach Mass in B minor , and the Silverline DVD-A of the Strauss 4 Last Songs and Ein Heldenleben (the only Silverline classical DVD-A that’s not a reincarnation of an older recording?).
I also repeat my disclaimer that it’s more important how a performance was recorded than what sort of media delivers it to us. I like to think I’m far from doctrinaire about my preference for DVD-Audio, and in many cases (e.g., the Mahler Fifth) I prefer hi-rez performances currently on SACD to those currently on DVD-Audio.
I’ve placed the more outstanding recordings nearer the top (the Chabrier through the Wagner), in order to get to the explanations of my preference for DVD-A sooner. Warning: I get off on a couple of tangents below. Sorry in advance!
Chabrier and Ravel: Orchestral Works (Sado/Lamoureux Orch 24/96 – 5.1 on Erato). This release is an overlooked gem! Many of the initial DVD-A releases from the Warner coalition (from a few years ago) sound excellent and this particular release may be the very best of that initial batch. This is a recording which really shows what the DVD-A format is capable of, in terms of soundstage depth, ambiance, and clarity. The microphones are further back than on a number of other DVD-A recordings and the absence of audible spotlighting is really gratifying. The Lamoureux orchestra sounds wonderful – really beautiful performances, a bit on the slower side if you’re used to, say, Paray/Detroit on Mercury. In the Ravel works (Bolero and Valses nobles et sentimentales), this release compares favorably with the justly praised MoFi Skrowaczewski /Minnesota SACD’s (derived from Vox analogue originals). But here’s a point in DVD-Audio’s favor (at least for me): on this Erato recording, I might not ordinarily find the microphone placement quite optimal (just slightly too much reflected sound), but the resolution of the format itself seems to improve my perception of what would ordinarily be an excellent (but not outstanding) recording. The DVD-A format seems to transform it from a pleasant into a superlative listening experience (at least for me). You can tell, I’m sure, that there’s a certain amount of guesswork in my trying to explain this quality of the best DVD-Audios, and I’ll return to this attempt at an explanation again in discussing the Farao Wagner set below. Anyway, I have not had this type of experience (where I recognize a certain type of sound and the format transforms it into something superlative) with SACD – at least to this extent.
Dvorak: Symphonies nos. 3 and 7 (Macal/Czech Philharmonic 24/96 – 5.0 on Exton). Just quoting a sample from the long review on my web site: “Regardless of what versions of [these works] you’ve previously enjoyed, I guarantee you have not heard the level of tonal subtlety from orchestral musicians (at least, on a recording) which you’ll hear in this DVD-Audio version of Mácal’s performance. Again, it’s the sonic engineering which allows these tonal subtleties to become audible, and in this recording, the alliance of high-resolution audio and nonpareil orchestral execution lead to what is almost a revelation. It may be hard to believe how much a performance can be enhanced through the audibility of these ever more subtle nuances, but my estimation is that they put the rendition on a much higher plane, and you start to miss them when you go back to other performances and you can’t hear them. (Not that they weren’t present in the other performances, it’s just that the older engineering did not allow us to hear them!)”
Dvorak: Symphonies nos. 5 and 9, “New World” (Macal/Czech Philharmonic 24/96 – 5.0 on Exton). Ditto the above.
BTW, the Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw DVD-A of the New World Symphony (on Teldec) is also excellent in terms of resolution and clarity, but I become slightly aware of the multi-microphones on this recording, despite the mitigating effects of multi-channel. In addition, there’s a fine Neumann/Czech Philharmonic performance of the New World Symphony available in Japan, but this DVD-A is not even multi-channel (24/44.1 – 2.0, on Denon).
Messiaen: Vingt Regards sur l’Enfant-Jesus (Aimard 24/96 – 5.0 on Teldec). Still the best sounding recording of a piano I’ve heard! Dynamic range is tremendous, and subtle dynamic changes are superbly captured. Clarity is outstanding and every nuance which Aimard has put in to his performance is conveyed with a precision which does not exclude sweetness. No SACD of a solo piano (at least among those I’ve heard) is this good – just my opinion at the present time. This may or may not be a function of the music carrier however.
Wagner: Die Walküre (Soloists, Mehta/Bavarian State Opera, 24/48 – 5.0 on Farao Classics). I’ll leave my original wording unchanged: In a sense, this recording is not all that different from the Saturday Metropolitan Opera Broadcasts – it was derived from public performances, and you can hear the occasional cough or stage noise. However, the sense of atmosphere is palpable – you feel as if you’re actually there, such is the sonic realism in terms of the instrumental timbres (every section: woodwinds, brass, and strings – how well their resinous quality is captured!) as well as the interaction of the voices and the stage and surrounding acoustic. It’s strange, some of these voices on this recording I might ordinarily find too vibrato-laden, but the clarity of the recording itself goes far towards freeing the voices from producing this impression. (I’ve had this same experience with live opera performances – you go to the opera house expecting to find certain singers not to your liking, based on what you’ve heard of their recordings. But then you hear them live and discover they aren’t as bad as you feared – something about the unconstrained acoustic of a live performance.) When the instrumental and vocal hues are as faithfully captured as they are in this recording, it becomes easy to see why Rimsky-Korsakov, a wizard at mixing orchestral colors, admired this opera so much. Again, this is a case of a recognizable recording technique being transformed by the extra resolution of DVD-Audio itself – to the extent that I’ve not been able to find a matching experience (at least not quite!) with SACD.
Bach: St Matthew Passion (Soloists, Guttenberg/Orchester der KlangVerwaltung, 24/48 – 5.0 on Farao Classics). Possibly even more beautifully engineered than Farao’s Die Walküre (above), this recording originates in the studio rather than in concert. As I mentioned before, I can’t stand the performance, yet I keep this set around, such is the quality of the engineering. I can’t believe Farao is now releasing only on SACD – I would bet even money that their masters are still PCM!
The two Beethoven symphony cycles (Abbado/Berlin Phil 24/96 – 5.1 on Deutsche Grammophon and Barenboim/Berlin Staatskapelle 24/96 – 5.0 on Teldec). I now have complete sets of both cycles, but I still feel that neither of these sets would be my first choice for interpretation or engineering. Of the two, the Barenboim is recorded far more beautifully and naturally to my ears – the Abbado suffers from an overabundance of microphones leading to a somewhat clinical sound with slightly undernourished strings. However, in the meantime since my initial posting, I’ve taken another poster’s suggestion to increase the sound from the rear speakers when listening to the Abbado recordings. This mitigates the deficiencies somewhat, and has convinced me that quick changes of level/balance ought to be available to the listener for any of the five or six speakers involved in multi-channel sound (without having to go through a tedious menu system)! As for Barenboim, I still find his a not very interesting cycle, with the exception of the Ninth, which is played and interpreted with considerably more conviction than the rest of the symphonies! On SACD, some listeners don’t like the way the Masur/Leipzig Gewandhaus performances sound (and these are only straight quad 4.0), but it’s my favorite complete traversal on hi-rez right now (although none of his performances would be my first choice for an individual symphony).
We might have gotten a chance to compare formats by means of the Carlos Kleiber renditions of the Beethoven Fifth and Seventh Symphonies (on Deutsche Grammophon), available on both SACD and DVD-A, but I don’t see what you can tell from these releases. Aside from the report that the SACD originates from a PCM mastering of the analogue original (which would not be a fair comparison), this is one of the worst sounding post-stereo-era recordings I’ve encountered from a major company (especially in the Seventh Symphony), produced, as it was, during the dark ages of Deutsche Grammophon’s infatuation with primitive multi-microphoned recording philosophy. Clinical doesn’t even begin to describe it – to me, this type of engineering is nothing more than a sabotage of the performance! (The same type of sabotage was wrought by DG on Giulini during his tenure with the LA Philharmonic.) (And BTW, I once owned these same Carlos Kleiber performances on LP’s, and the LP’s had the same obvious “reconstituted in the control room” quality, although as I mentioned, the Fifth is better than the Seventh.)
Beethoven: Symphony No. 6 / Respighi Pines of Rome (Macal/New Jersey 24/96 – 5.1 on AIX). I still have this recording and continue to play around with the settings to see if I can get it to sound better on my system. I’ve seen it praised by some listeners, but I still feel it suffers from an unflattering, clinical sound, although some individual instrumental timbres are well reproduced.
Mahler: Symphony No. 2, “Resurrection” (Chailly/Concertgebouw, 24/96 – 5.1 on Decca). Superlative account resulting from what I would guess is a sophisticated multi-microphoned engineering effort, typical of Decca’s current activities in the Concertgebouw. (This estimation also applies to Chailly’s recording of the Mahler Eighth below.)
Mahler: Symphony No. 8 (Chailly/Concertgebouw, 24/48 (despite what it says on the cover!) – 5.1 on Decca). This recording really gives you a great sense of the depth of the hall, captured much more clearly than previous Decca CD’s from the Concertgebouw (although I haven’t heard the CD of this performance). Besides the nonpareil Concertgebouw Orchestra, Chailly also has a pretty decent group of soloists at his disposal too. (When this many soloists are involved, there always seems to be a weak link who ruins part of the performance. No one lets down the team too badly here!)
(Note: I am also familiar with the Chailly recording of the Mahler Third on SACD. It too is consistent with the excellent results on the two DVD-A’s above. Haven’t heard Chailly’s Mahler Ninth on SACD.)
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This is a good reference post, which I'll be studying when I can grab a moment out from my 'day job'.By the way, I don't suppose you've heard the stunning "Ravel, Debussy, Faure" played by the Guerneri String Quartet? This DVD-A was published by SurroundedBy Entertainment. Sadly, I no longer think the label is active. But if you can find this disc, I highly recommend it! (But I’m not giving mine up!) Both the multichannel (4.0 channel @ 96khz) and stereo (@ 192kHz !) are spectacular. Unusually this disc ONLY plays in DVD Audio players, since there is no Dolby Digital track.
I also recommend the slew of releases from Naxos. I bought virtually the whole lot. Although most are in 48kHz 24bit. And value-for-money these can't be beaten. Stand-outs include Vivaldi Four Seasons (96kHz), and Mass In B-Minor (2-DVD set @ 96kHz) which features some top soloists. There are other choral releases from Naxos such as Arvo Part "Berliner Messe", Tallis "Spem in alium", and Vivaldi "Dixit Dominus" which I find particularly refreshing from the usual dose of "chart" symphonic works. I am also grateful for them to release operatic highlights from Mozart’s "Don Giovanni" (Highlights) and "Le nozze di Figaro". (OK these two fall into the "chart" category, but they are well performed and worth having nonetheless in your collection.)
I also have the Tacet release of Franz Schubert / Streichquintett C-Dur D956 (cat #110), by the Auryn-Quartet (96Khz), which is excellent.
Arts Music have a few gems too. My favorites include: Handel’s Messiah; Shostakovich No. 5 op. 47 & No. 6 op. 54; and Antonio Vivaldi L'Estro Armonico op. 3 Vol. 1, and op. 3 Vol. 2 (two separately purchased DVD-As each with 96kHz LPCM stereo as well as the multichannel -- offers absolutely stunning sonics, ambience, & soundstaging).The most stellar Teldec (Warner) disc IMO is St. Matthaus Passion, conducted by Harnoncourt, which runs for a continuous 2hr 45mins on one DVD-9, at 96kHz in 5.1 multichannel.
Anyway, these are just a few which spring to mind just for now. I may think of some more later.
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Martin,Thanks for your post – haven’t heard the Guarnieri DVD-A, but I’ve seen it praised by lots of posters and reviewers.
Regarding the Naxos DVD-A’s, I think the ones you mentioned are indeed excellent. I also like the Naxos series originating from Russia – not state of the art perhaps, but better than a lot of reviews and posts report. (I wonder if the negative tone of some of these reviews is caused by listening to the SACD incarnations of these recordings? After all, I believe all these Naxos hi-rez recordings started out as PCM, so it’s hardly likely they’re showing SACD to that format’s best advantage.) I also like the Mozart opera discs you mention with (mostly) unmarketed, but excellent singers led by Halasz – a very dynamic conductor in these works.
On the other hand, there are some real turkeys in the Naxos hi-rez catalog, among which I would include the Vaughan Williams Sea Symphony (the Spano/Atlanta Sym on a Telarc SACD is SO much better!), the Vaughan Williams Orchestral works with Judd and the New Zealand Sym, and the recent de Falla disc.
Haven’t ordered my Tacet recordings yet, and have not heard the Harnoncourt St. Matthew Passion. I’ll reply to your other post separately.
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. . . are the "Bucharest Sessions" from Dr. Mark Waldrep's AIX Records.These discs are single-layer DVD-5s which are packed with alternate mixes to suit every DVD player. As well as the 5.1 in 96kHz MLP, they also have DTS & Dolby multichannel, AND also LPCM stereo in 96kHz. As a result of the above, play time is between 45mins and 50mins.
My favorites include:-
~ Marcello/Handel/Vivaldi [respectively: (a) Oboe concerto; (b) Organ concerto; (c) Sinfonias];
~ Mozart Variations/Schumann Fantasie (piano solos);
~ Scarlatti/Beethoven: woodwind quartets;
~ Mozart: Symphony nos. 26 & 41 / Jupiter;
~ Chopin: Four Ballades (piano solo) played by Anita Chang -- this one is a regular AIX title whcih is a DVD-14 with DVD-A on one side, and DVD-Video (with 'live' visual footage) on the other side. Stunning sound quality.I should also mention another excellent AIX DVD-A which I recently bought: Frédéric Chopin "Selected Piano" Works played by the talented Roberto Prosseda. This latest one comes as a dual-layer DVD-9, and the playing time (a full hour) is longer than previous AIX releases. Moreover, and it comes with a CD of the same music which I have in my car CD changer. It is good to see AIX releasing more classical again.
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Thanks for this post too – I have some of the AIX Romanian DVD-Audios, but unfortunately, not any of the ones on your list. My favorite of the ones I have is the Romanian Folk Music disc with the Adrian Petrescu Band – lots of insane fun and energy!Regarding the Anita Chang disc of the Chopin Ballades, I agree that it’s recorded very well indeed. However, I could not get past the performances which sounded a bit (sorry!) amateurish to me – by which I mean lacking basic elements of control and technique in voicing chords or creating seamless legato lines. This type of control is a sine qua non in this music. (I may as well ‘fess up here and admit to being Jon Nakamatsu’s accompanist and sometime duo partner – that influences my outlook on piano performances a little.)
I haven’t heard the new Roberto Prosseda Chopin recital yet, but I agree with you that it’s good to see AIX issuing new classical DVD-Audios! I’ll keep an eye out for it.
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About the Chang recital -- I agree entirely with what you say! But note that I did just stress the sound quality (not the performance)!Now as you are a pianist yourself, I might also order the Messiaen "Vingt Regards sur l’Enfant-Jesus", since you recommend it so highly.
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The two AIX classical recordings I have and love are the Firebird Suite and Brandenberg Concertos 3 + 5, both by the George Enescu Philharmonic (Romania). I'm not a classical expert but I'm crazy about the performances and of course the compositions are magnificent. These were early efforts by AIX but the sonics are stunning, and since these disks don't have all the bells and whistles of the later releases, the price is less than most of their disks.Once again, thanks, Chris. I'll use your suggestions when deciding on future purchases.
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Could you tell us 2 channel listeners when DVD-Audio's have a high resolution 2 channel program?I enjoyed the music on Chabrier and Ravel: Orchestral Works (Sado)/Lamoureux Orch 24/96 – 5.1 on Erato) however I was not impressed with the sonics due "I believe" to the downsampling as there is no high resolution 2 channel program.
Thanks for your other reviews and there are a couple that I will add to my collection if they have a high resolution 2 channel program.
Here is the breakdown on the discs I referred to (as to whether they contain dedicated hi-rez 2.0 tracks):Dvorak Symphonies 3 and 7 (Macal/CPO, Exton): Dedicated 2.0 hi-rez tracks available
Dvorak Symphonies 5 and 9 (Macal/CPO, Exton): Dedicated 2.0 hi-rez tracks available
Dvorak Symphony No. 9 (Neumann/CPO, Denon): 2.0 ONLY (no multichannel); also note that while the bit rate is 24, the sample rate is only CD-quality (44.1)
Wagner “Die Walküre” (Mehta/Bavarian, Farao): Dedicated 2.0 hi-rez tracks available
Bach “St. Matthew Passion) (Guttenberg, et al., Farao): Dedicated 2.0 hi-rez tracks available
Beethoven Symphonies (Abbado, Berlin Phil, DG): Dedicated 2.0 hi-rez tracks available
Beethoven Symphonies 5 and 7 (Kleiber/VPO, DG): Dedicated 2.0 hi-rez tracks available
Beethoven/Respighi (Macal/New Jersey, AIX): Dedicated 2.0 hi-rez tracks available; the multi-channel and two-channel hi-rez programs are on opposite sides of the disc (lots of bonus material on this disc!)
Mahler Symphony No. 2 (Chailly/Concertgebouw): Dedicated 2.0 hi-rez tracks available
Mahler Symphony No. 8 (Chailly/Concertgebouw): Dedicated 2.0 hi-rez tracks available
Regarding the Warner (Teldec) releases (Barenboim Beethoven Symphonies, Harnoncourt New World Symphony, Aimard Messiaen Vingt Regards): info on the cases seems to indicate that “advanced resolution stereo (96 kHz / 24 bit)” is available, but I cannot navigate to these 2.0 sections!
Your findings re: the Teldec discs are correct. The Teldec discs do not contain 2ch tracks, despite the labels that say the tracks are there.
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Teresa,You are right - the Chabrier/Ravel DVD-A disc does not have a hi-rez two-channel program/section/group.
I'll check the other discs for hi-rez two-channel and post the results later today.
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...may be the result of the equipment you use. I use a Pioneer 578 for DVD-A, which it does remarkably well...almost as good as the Arcam DV-79 which is the best I have heard. However, it does much less well with CD and SACD. Compared to my Sony C222ES SACD machine, the Pioneer SACD looses ambience and transparency to a noticeable degree (I should note that I use the Sony's multichannel direct output, bypassing all digital processing). I get the same effect when I run the Sony with digital processing used (5-large)as the Pioneer, although not to the same degree. On redbook, the sound of the CD through my DTI Pro / Proceed DAC is much clearer than either machine.The point is...if your machine is optimzed for DVD-A, it will probably sound better than that same machine playing SACD, which it probably converts to PCM. Likewise, if the machine is optimized for SACD, it probably isn't optimized for DVD-A if it plays it at all. And a good redbook machine or outboard rig can probably beat them both when it comes to redbook reproduction.
You don't state your equipment, but it is possible that if you used different gear you would end up favoring SACD over DVD-A. Possible, no?
Harry
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Well, Chris seems to own a Pioneer 47Ai connected to a 55TXi receiver via IEEE1394 on the main system - this setup would undoubtedly be optimised for DVD-A rather than SACD since DSD is being converted to PCM in the receiver.However, Chris also has a Sony NS900V SACD/DVD player on a second system. Presumably some of the advantages of SACD would be audible on the second system?
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Christine,Yes – you’re right about the main source component I’m using: a DV47ai universal player connected to a 55txi receiver via IEEE 1394. For anyone else who wants to check, my systems are listed here on the Asylum.
But my 55txi receiver has a setup option for SACD direct mode, which I employ, and which (quoting from the manual) “allows you to enjoy 1-bit DSD high-quality sound directly from an SACD component, bypassing the [receiver’s] DSP circuitry”. (The DV47ai player has a DSD chip and does not convert DSD to PCM.)
You’re also right that I have a Sony SACD player, which used to be connected to my main system, but which has now been pressed into service in my computer room system.
I’ve heard each format through dedicated players for their respective formats, as well as the two Firewire-connected components I now do most of my listening on. I agree with Harry that source components could influence how one perceives the qualities of each format.
BTW, I liked your capsule descriptions of the two hi-rez formats in one of your previous posts (SACD “clean and clear”, DVD-A “clean and crisp”). I might be tempted to give it a little different emphasis: SACD “clean and smooth”, DVD-A “clean and clear”. :-)
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are you sure your pioneer does not convert SACD to PCM via the firewire?in terms of "clean and clear" vs "clean and smooth" - i think the "smoothness" may be an artefact caused by ultrasonic noise affecting some amplification components.
i noticed the smoothness with my old denon avc-a1se, and thought it was a characteristic of SACD but then i discovered i can replicate it using CDs simply by switching my player to use the "option" filter which opens up ultrasonic noise from the DAC.
the "smoothness" has completely disappeared using my new amplification components (which are rated to 100MHz) so i doubt it is a characteristic of SACD.
i think the "crispness" of DVD-As is also an artefact of the ultrasonics, since that has also disappeared in my new setup.
In fact on my new system DVD-As and SACDs sound eerily alike - switching between my players playing Diana Krall Love Scenes (2ch track) i could not reliably tell the difference at all.
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Christine,In some cases (the Chailly Mahler Symphony series I mentioned, which has had a couple of symphonies released in each format), I agree with you. I expect it would be hard for me to tell the difference between the two formats.
Regarding the Firewire connection, I can only quote from the instruction manual: "The i.LINK [Firewire]connector outputs every kind of digital audio that the player is compatible with, including DVD-Video, DVD-Audio, SACD, CD, and MP3. In contrast, the optical and coaxial digital outputs do not output SACD. . . " That's as much info as I have. Perhaps someone else could elaborate?
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i am not sure, but i thought the 47Ai (which i think was the first player to support i.LINK) was released before the specs for transmitting DSD via IEEE1394 was finalised, and i seem to recall pioneer resampled DSD to PCM 88.2kHz since the output was meant to be directed to the 49TXi receiver (which had BB1704 DACs that did not support DSD).of course, i could be completely wrong on this, since i don't own the player. are you able to verify - is your receiver able to report whether it is receiving DSD when you play SA-CDs? My old Denon had a status button which did this (very handy when I was playing with my HTPC and trying to get it to output 44.1).
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Actually, I took the easy way out and did a web search on the 47ai. I found a 1394 trade association site where the following statement is made:"The DV-47Ai has the capability of transferring digital audio information from the player to a receiver/pre-amplifier via IEEE-1394. Currently the IEEE-1394 connection allows the digital signal transfer of Dolby Digital, DTS, SACD digital bit-streams, and DVD-Audio bit-streams."
In addition, there is also an early review on the Audio Revolution web site which includes the following statement:
"Some of the early universal players didn’t offer bass management for SACD or converted DSD to PCM, thus defeating many of the audio advantages of SACD. This player [the 47ai] keeps the signal pure and in control for both formats. . . " (I've included a link to the full review.)
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i would hardly consider audio revolution to be the last word in terms of accuracy of reporting (in any case, if you read the review that statement seems to be talking about the player's analog outputs rather than firewire).i think it would have been difficult for the 47Ai to support DSD given the spec wasn't finalised until at least six months after it was released. there could have been a firmware update, of course. when did you buy yours?
the only way to tell for sure is to check for yourself, rather than rely on statements on the web. many statements made on the internet turn out not quite 100% true - there's the infamous case of the sony white paper on their digital amps which extolled how "DSD-like" the amps were, but a few people who have opened up the amps found out DSD is converted to PCM internally before it even touches the power amps. ouch!
and according to alex peychev the current budget Sony DVD/SACD players convert DSD to PCM internally because Sony couldn't be bothered routing DSD all the way to the DACs.
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Christine,I've sent the following inquiry directly to Pioneer:
"I've owned a Pioneer Elite DV47ai universal player for a little over a year and am using iLINK to connect to a Pioneer Elite VSX-55TXi receiver. Can you confirm that the DSD data stream is being sent over the iLINK interface when I play SACD's on the DV47ai? (This is unclear on your web site.) Thank you very much for your trouble!"
let me know if you do get a reply. regardless, i'm sure you will continue to keep enjoying listening to your wonderful discs :-)
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Here are some old posts from dr1394, who has tested the 47Ai in his IEEE 1394 test bed.http://db.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=dvda&n=5427
http://db.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hirez&n=113963
http://db.AudioAsylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hirez&n=105413You can find more discussion by searching his posts. His conclusion was that the 47Ai sends encrypted DSD over the interface, not converted to PCM. However, he did state that the 49TXi converts DSD to 88.2k PCM internally and I think I've heard that stated elsewhere too. But that's the 49TXi, the 55TXi could be different.
Dave
I did get my answer from Pioneer today. Here it is, in its unedited entirety:“Thanks for the e-mail
Pioneer: Yes, the DSD is being sent out the i-link connections.”
So. . .
It is my belief, supported by Dave’s references to dr1394’s tests/posts and the above answer from Pioneer, that I’m indeed listening to the DSD data stream on the SACD’s I play on the DV47ai via the iLINK (aka Firewire aka IEEE1394) connection to the 55Txi via the “SACD Direct” option on that receiver. This option, as stated in the owner’s manual, “allows you to enjoy 1-bit DSD high-quality sound directly from an SACD component, bypassing the [receiver’s] DSP circuitry”.
Regarding Pioneer’s inclusion of the iLINK interface on its products before the spec for DSD over IEEE1394 was finalized, this of course would not have been the first time a company has rushed a product out to market in such a way, simply in order to be first with a new feature. We’ve all seen it happen in the computer industry.
What I forgot to mention in all this discussion so far is why I listen in this way (via the Firewire): use of the Firewire interface has been one of the biggest improvements I’ve ever made in my audio system, in terms of eliminating grunge and enhancing the realism of whatever recording I’m playing, whether it’s a CD, SACD, or DVD-A. I’m not saying that there aren’t better systems out there (as there surely are!) – only that the Firewire interface has been a significant source of sonic improvement within my own system.
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... aren't you glad that you've now answered this question to your complete satisfaction?Next time an arrogant bastard like me asks a similar question, you can hold your head high in the air and answer definitively, with confidence. :-)
I am not surprised that you hear an improvement using the Firewire connection, the DACs and audio stage in your receiver are likely to be superior to that in the player.
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Christine,I’ll try to answer the specific parts of your note below:
“... aren’t you glad that you've now answered this question to your complete satisfaction?”
MY complete satisfaction? I was trying to answer the question to YOUR complete satisfaction. :-) Anyway, as HAL would say, “I feel much better now!”
“Next time an arrogant bastard like me asks a similar question, you can hold your head high in the air and answer definitively, with confidence.”I left off the happy face in the quote, but in all seriousness, I doubt anyone here would consider you an arrogant bastard. I certainly respect the knowledge you show in your postings on this forum – even the posts where you trashed dual discs! (Let’s not get into that – I stayed out of that discussion!)
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Dave, Christine:So far, all I've received from Pioneer is the auto-generated acknowledgement of my query, but now it seems as if I may have asked the wrong question!
I'm going to pour over the 55Txi owner's manual again - I'll let you know if I find anything enlightening. Thanks for your posts!
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Christine,Will give it a try to see if I can verify anything about the DSD from any receiver readout - and report back. All I can say at this point is that I can't do any digital processing in SACD Direct mode. (That limitation would of course be expected.)
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Where can these discs be purchased?
Can't find them in my usual DVD-A online stores
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Farao discs can be purchased directly from the manufacturer at the Farao website. I've included the link below.I got my Exton discs from HMV Japan.
Funny thing about Exton, they were exclusively SACD (for hi-rez) until last year when they released some DVD-Audios. (It seems to be an either/or situation with them - if a certain release appears in one hi-rez format, it will not appear in the other hi-rez format.) This month, they released another Macal/Czech Philharmonic recording (Tchaikovsky) - but as a SACD, not DVD-Audio. So I thought, well, maybe their release of the DVD-Audios last year was a temporary aberration. But no, they have a couple more DVD-Audios slated for release in September. So I have no idea what's going on with this company!
-Chris Salocks
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Michael Bishop did response to my post on the SACD board but I have not gotten any other feedback.Very much appreciate you taking the time now and in the past for reviewing classical music on hi-rez.
This last post will be kept for future reference. FWIW, I haven't bought a DVD-A recording now in at least a year or so. My latest endeavor is sampling DVD recordings of classical works. I'm very much enjoying lots of what I've heard so far. In the near future, it will be a comparison of a Abbado DVD versus his DVD-A recording of LVB symphonies. I also plan to do so versus SACD also if I can find the same performance on DVD. It's all for curiousity sake.
BTW, there are lots of classical music performances on DVD. I dare say lots more than people may think.
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Sorry I did not respond to your posts earlier, over on the SACD forum (Hi-Rez Highway). I was not exactly certain what you meant at first.Regarding DTS tracks vs. DVD-A MLP tracks, I agree with Sound Guy (in the post below).
At the same time, I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the DTS tracks on some DVD videos. I just listened to and watched the Opus Arte DVD-Video of Rachmaninoff’s opera, “The Miserly Knight”. Maybe it was because I wasn’t expecting much, but I found the DTS sound track very impressive, conveying a nice sense of space, even though I know it’s a lossy compression scheme. I also found the DTS track of the Paris production of Prokofiev’s “War and Peace” on a TDK DVD-Video surprisingly good (not as good as the Rachmaninoff, however).
In addition to the DTS tracks on DVD videos, there are DTS audio discs. (This is where my confusion about your original question arose.) Again, I’ve found some of these discs to be of surprisingly high quality. I recently acquired two DTS audio discs (on the Coviello label) of Bruckner Symphonies 7 and 8 (with the Aachen Symphony). I actually acquired these discs by mistake (!) because there were listed as DVD-Audios on the HMV Japan web site! In the event however, they turned out to be surprisingly fine sounding discs with interesting interpretations from the conductor (Marcus Bosch).
Another DTS audio disc which I’ve had good luck with is the DTS Entertainment disc of a performance of the St. John Passion given in Portland, Oregon. This disc illustrates my contention that it’s less important what the music carrier is than how the performance was recorded in the first place, and the simple microphone technique on this recording pays real, audible dividends.
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I'm just beginning to sample classical recordings utilizing DTS or DD 5.1 that I have available to me from the library and Netflix. Perhaps the ones you commented on will also be available to me.As I stated, what I've heard has impressed me so far. The standouts include Neujahrskonzert New Years's Concert 2004 with Riccardo Muti and Wiener Philarmoniker on DG, Perlman on EMI DVD Beethoven and Brahms Violin Concertos, Ma, Meyer, & O'Connor's Appalachian Journey on Sony DVD, and also Mickhael Gielen SWR Sinforieorchester LVB Symphonies 4,5, & 6 on EuroArts DVD (that's 3 symphs for quite a very good price).
I was unable to open the pdf you made available on the hi-rez forum so I'm in the dark as to its content. I do see you wrote about some of the Dvorak Symphs here. Have you sampled any of those classical works on SACD? The Philips SACD recording for Ivan Fischer with the Budapest Festival Orchestra is very very good and has drawn praise from lots of folks! It includes the Dvorak 8th and 9th.
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Robert,I have the following recordings of Dvorak Symphonies (mainly the New World) on SACD:
Fischer / Budapest Festival Orch on Philips
Bernstein / NY Phil on Sony
Kreizberg / Netherlands Phil on Pentatone
Szell / Cleveland Orch on SonyHaven't heard any of these for a while, but my initial impression was that I liked the Macal / Czech Phil performance on Exton more than I liked these four (in the New World anyway). However, I have not heard the Reiner recording on SACD yet, and Reiner's has always been one of my favorite renditions for its combination of intensity, orchestral playing, and engineering. So, needless to say, I'm looking forward to hearing the Reiner in its new incarnation!
Your question about SACD versions of the Dvorak Symphonies prompts me to think about making a list of my favorite SACD's. This might be interesting, because the list would be more from a DVD-Audiophile's perspective! It would be less interesting however in that many of my choices would tend to be the conventional favorites already praised by other posters (e.g., the Living Stereo and Living Presence reissues, a lot of the Pentatones, etc.)
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I find this recording at my local library this past weekend. I'm able to hold unto it for three weeks. I haven't gotten a chance to listen to it yet but plan to do so in the near future. Opinions on the hi-rez board were very mixed (aren't they always?).This isn't the first SACD I came across at the library. They have some of the MTT SFS Mahler symphony recordings. I need to find out how the library happened upon these. I know folks can fill out a request form but I guess I shouldn't be surprised some SACDs are beginning to show up.
The Macal/Czech Phil on Exton has me curious. Perhaps I'll purchase it down the road. I try to avoid duplication for classical works and also jazz recordings across digital formats but I have made some exceptions in the past.
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Just popped in my AIX Mozart Symphony 26 disc and did a comparison between the 96/24 MLP track and the DD 5.1 track.
The MLP track has much more detail and information while the DD track runs out of steam in complex passages and tend to sound a bit brittle (due to lossy compression). The DD track leave you with a feeling that you are missing something (of course there is a lot missing!).
So if you are listening to simple music with few instruments DD may work but if you need real music go 96/24 uncompressd / MLP.
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No matter if you have a corresponding work on DVD-A or not, I'd like to know what experiences you have listening with that audio format.
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nt
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There have been extremely good DVD-A releases from the Tacet, MDG, and ARTS labels which are, in my opinion, amongst the best hi resolution classical releases in either format. It is a shame more have not been released - or appreciated.
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I agree with you about the MDG and ARTS DVD-A's (especially the Baroque releases on ARTS), although the MDG's espouse that odd 2+2+2 speaker placement.As for Tacet, I don't know why I haven't ordered any their DVD-A's yet. I'll remedy that tomorrow - Thanks for the reminder!
Four of my Tacet favorites in DVD- audio are #110, Schubert String Sextet; #115 Beethoven Op 20; # 127 - Rachminoff, Tschaikovsky Piano Trio's; and $133; Schubert Octet in F. All their releases are of superb quality; it is the music itself in these that I particularly return to.
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Thanks for the tip - I will order these! (I assume you meant the Schubert String Quintet?)
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You are correct, their disc is #110, be sure to order the DVD-A version as it is also out in a CD version with the same catelogue number.
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Although MDG has the unusual 2+2+2 speaker arrangement, they claim it is compatible with a 5.1 system. So that should not stop you from purchasing MDG.
I recently posted on the SACD forum how 2+2+2 works in a 5.1 setup. Here is the link
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/214207.html
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Can you post a link?
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Just a word of warning - this is not a particularly impressive web site. (Don't want to get anyone's hopes up!) There are only two reviews and a survey of some recordings of Mahler's Fifth Symphony. All the files are in PDF format, so you need Acrobat reader. Some posters report that they can't open the PDF files, but I like PDF myself because I can keep control over fonts, glyphs, etc.-Chris Salocks
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No problem with the PDFs.
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