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84.9.109.215
Muse - "Take A Bow" from 'Black Holes And Revelations"
Normalized to -5dB for a better look at the butchery;
Take a look at these stats for the 'flatlined' section';
over 1.1% of samples on the left channel, and over 1.9% on the right at 0dB in those 2 minutes of (so-called) music
These are crude 0dB overs on the CD master ltself, which I believe may be in contravention of the Red Book standard
In the past 'clever' mastering engineers would apply these overs and then 'normalize' to -0.5dB or so, in order that the recordings weren't rejected by glass-mastering facilites.
And finally, this is what Audition (clip restoration) reckons it should look like, given 6dB of headroom to play with;
There is a very good chance that this could damage loudspeakers driven at levels that should well under what they're rated for. Anecdotally, I've heard that a lot of people are blowing tweeters in in-car systems baecause of it.
Is this unusual? Not at all, about the standard for pop and rock CDs now, and I've seen worse
I'm going to pay £10+ pounds for this? I don't bloody-well think so!
Follow Ups:
It's why there's a popular misconception that "digital" is synonymous with "suck".
I don't care when they do that to a Britney Spears CD, because I don't buy that crap anyway. But when they do it to good music, it pisses me off.
Cheers,
Bobbo :-)
High compression is part of today's music. It is a sound effect which is frequently used and abused but thats the style.
I have trouble believing that the artists would agree to involuntary compression of their material if they really cared about it. They have to listen to the final master before it gets released.
Buy different music if this annoys you. There are millions of recordings without this issue.
I've read of many artists that never listen to their own music after the recording sessions, so I seriously doubt most artists have as much say as you think in the sound of what hits the street. Are you speaking specifically of Muse? What most artists hear in the studio is often much different than what we get to hear on the CD. Lots of work is done to put it all together after the recording and editing and mixing, and much added compression is normally applied in the CD mastering stage nowadays, which is why the niche vinyl release (usually done by a different mastering studio without instructions to maximize sound levels) is sometimes much better sounding.
"Maybe thats what artists wanted"
Don't be ridiculous.
You can see (and hear) on "Take a Bow" that the song is meant to build steadily in volume from beginning to end - it's a single crescendo.
It borders on what has been desctibed as "noise with a beat" for the last 30 seconds - a distorted mess.
There is absolutely no doubt that the 2-track this CD was mastered from from peaks at least 6dB higher than the disc's 0dB, in fact probably higher .
The rest of the disc is more of the same.
Don't shortsell the artist. Well, there are two kinds of artists.
One is the Britney Spears and American Idol type. They just come into the studio, do what they are supposed to and leave.
But the more "traditional" artists tend to have a genuine interest in these things. Thought they might be alienated by today's studios, with old limiters and stuff being replaced by software.
I read a piece about this once and at least one record company head was very concerned about this loudness war. But it's not easy to change when everybody from the artist and up seems to want it. One studio engineer said artist often bring CDs they like (usually severely compressed) and say they want it to sound like this. And the engineers deliver.
I don't know the recording but I understand what you are trying to illustrate.
My point is that if I was an artist who cares about the final product beyond the cover sleeve design I would listen to the final master beforehand or even participate during mixdown.
I realize that many musicians/bands don't listen to their material after recording so if the final product is crap they are to blame as much as the mastering guy.
Unless they are a symphony or B.Spears-like pop production where the producer decides about the sound they have a final say in what comes out with their name on it. Especially these days where most of the the recording business are small studio or home-made productions.
"so if the final product is crap they are to blame as much as the mastering guy. "
Er, no.
I know a 'mastering guy'. He's a subtle, well-educated and overall charming guy. He plays the guitar. He owns his mastering facilities (and they are pretty serious).
Thing is, corporates are paying the mastering bills, not artists. Suits are pressing a gun to his head while whispering 'make it louder than any other one'.
bring bac k dynamic range
"Thing is, corporates are paying the mastering bills, not artists. Suits are pressing a gun to his head while whispering 'make it louder than any other one'."
This is more the reality - albums made with iPods, TV speakers and car stereos in mind, listened to by kids who have never heard a decent audio system in their life.
Kids usually first hear new tracks on MTV and are probably more wrapped up in the video to care about sound quality, or they'll buy - more likely download - a new album without even hearing it if they're a fan of the band or it's been recommended to them by a friend.
It's a shame because among the crap there are some good new bands out there writing and playing good music, but playing their albums on a SET system for instance does expose the cavern between them and releases from studios where the engineers aren't dictated to by their clients.
Best Regards,
Chris redmond.
Looking at the commercial motives for this vandalism;
These discs are aimed at people who listen almost exclusively on personals and in-car systems, where the 'drama' of a piece like the Muse track (which the band clearly intended as a single, inexorable crescendo) would be lost even if it was on the disc - they just need (or want) everything to be audible over background noise.
The record companies apparently really do perceive themselves to be in a 'loundess war', wishing to make sure that their releases are equally 'impressive' when commuters shuffle tracks on their personal players.
How many sales would they lose if the practice of 'clipression' wasn't used?
In my case, they have already lost dozens of sales over the last few years. How many more like me, who are (conciously or not) aware of the nigh unlistenable sound of typical releases
Take Queens Of The Stone Age; I bought "Songs For the Deaf' soon after it was released, it can be fairly be called a classic, hard-rock album. But I I was getting bored with it after a few listens, which in fact is a typical reaction to over-compression and lack of dynamics. Dave Grohl's excellent drumming, which should be thunderous, is largely emasculated.
When "Lullabys To Paralyze' was released I passed, until it came up in a sale a couple of years ago for less than £5. Bought it, and I've since listened to it twice. 'Era Vulgaris'? Thanks, but no thanks (since downloaded as FLAC files, which confirmed that it certainly isn't worth £10 of my money).
And so it goes on.
Since vinyl, SACD and DVDA releases are so few and far between (not to mention expensive), high fidelity music reproduction (at least for pop and a lot of jazz) essentially doesn't exist anymore
But wait - those 'commercial motives'; are not the sales of CD's in inexorable decline (and downloads NOT matching it in growth)? Is the industry not incessantly wringing it's hands, and whining about it being the fault of "piracy" and "file-sharing"? (Q. When do people buy music? A. After they've heard it somewhere). What's wrong with that picture?
Queens of the Stone Age on Vinyl is pretty common and isn't compressed very much!
I don't own a turntable anymore (haven't for 25 years, actually) - but in the pursuit for *uncompressed* music, it seems this is a more reliable source of good sound.
Read somewhere that the market was shaping up for LP's for high Rez music, and MP3's for low rez with the CD being squeezed ... I dunno if thats true, but it is plausible!
I am given hope with services like "Music Giants" out there - where a 24/96 stream would only exist for music quality.
"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad"
The response to +4dB signals etc. is a function of your particular D/A chip and the implementation of the DAC. My DAC will take +4dB no problems with plenty of headroom.
Perhaps you've misunderstood, and I've then misunderstood your reply.
Those grabs are of screens from Audition, of a track from a (UK) retail CD of "Black Holes ....".
Howdy
Taking a guess:
You said "There is a very good chance that this could damage loudspeakers driven at levels that should well under what they're rated for. Anecdotally, I've heard that a lot of people are blowing tweeters in in-car systems baecause of it."
In any proper DAC this can't happen: even if the data is screwy as heck, after a proper reconstruction filter this shouldn't be worse to components downstream than a full level square wave (or any other signal).
However there are plenty DACs out there that can't deal with the out of bounds data and will do ugly things. audioengr was just pointing out that his wasn't such a DAC.
Personally even tho I agree with you that such over driven and clipped material is bad news, I don't agree that it should cause damage down stream when played at any sane level and I know from personal experience with bugs in my DSP code in the past how bad things can really get :)
-Ted
I mentioned in-car systems, because they are often driven hard to compete with road noise.
For example, if someone has installed their own system, and matched the amplifiers and speakers well but without much headroom for the speakers, they *will* have a good chance of frying drivers, tweeters in particular - the motors will run much hotter at a given RMS level fed material like this.
By "headroom", I mean in terms of volume, actual sound-pressure levels in the listening space (i.e. in the car).
audioengr? Asn in Audio Engineer? Lol. I don't think so.
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