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Sonic Signature of Caps???

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Hello,
I'm new to kit building and during my course of reading all the great info here, I see some strong opinions over using AN caps versus others, such as Mundorfs.

So my questions are -

What are the sonic signatures & characteristics of the various caps - like AN tin, AN copper, AN silver, Mundorf, Jensen, V-Cap, Rel, and so forth?

Why so passionate against Mundorfs?

Are Mundorf Tube Caps OK to use in the power supply? Why / why not?

Thank you for your thoughtful comments...

Follow Ups:

RE: Sonic Signature of Caps??? - Tubeheadz 21:46:40 04/16/10 (0)
Caps have a major impact on amplifier sonics, probably second only to our choice of tubes... and at this time there is no perfect capacitor, so... everything is a trade-off. Much has been written about the different effects of caps in their two major applications; power supply smoothing and decoupling signal stages. The Chris van Haus write-up is very amateurish and subjective... but there have been many others... and the truly objective studies have always concluded the same way... (see above).

The teflon caps are always very identifiable and Peter Qvortrup has spoken out about them so very strongly in his writings, that I feel I should uphold his sentiments in the Audio Note Kits. I have not heard one piece of Audio Note gear (in its price/performance bracket) that I felt would be improved by the addition of teflon caps of any make.
I have used small values (like .01uf) as bypass caps in my own designs when I wanted a little high end extension or clarity but this has not been necessary in any of my AN's.

One thing is for sure... the Black Gates are the best for smoothing, and AN Silvers the best for decoupling. No-one seems to argue that! Now... we are faced with the shortage of BG's and the high prices of both the BG's and the AN Silvers, so how do we compromise?

My quest has been (and still is) to maintain the Audio Note sonic signature in the Kits, while using the components that give the best ROI. My point being that if you have plenty of disposable cash, go and buy the AN Finished Products... you won't be sorry! For the rest of us, trying to reach Sonic Nirvana by modifying the AN Kits is a worthwhile cause... keeping many away from fast liquor and faster women... or driving us to them!

So, if you want to maintain that Audio Note sound then use the components that will get you there. If not... do whatever you please and simply put your own logo on the faceplate.

I feel that I have been reasonably successful in my endeavour, because not one Forum member who has implemented my enhancements has taken them out.... well, in full disclosure, two members did, temporarily and for different reasons. Now if I can just convince everybody that I can lead them to the promised... ;-)

Until next time... enjoy the music...
I don't hear a big difference between - Frihed89 12:35:22 04/16/10 (2)
AN copper foil and Mundorf Silver-Oil in my Meishu preamp stage, but the Vcap CUTFs really do sound smoother, faster and more transparent without sacrificing the lyric quality of the Meishu's original sound. I suspect the same would hold true for AN silver foil caps in a coupling role.

I have found this to hold true for a deHavilland preamp and some Quicksilver mono amps I own, as well.

"What did the Romans ever do for us?"
- RE: I don't hear a big difference between - Wojciech 12:46:43 04/16/10 (1)
  Not to hijack the thread,did you have a chance to compare Quests silver Sig to Meishu silver sig.(or standard)?
  Regards, W
  - RE: I don't hear a big difference between - Frihed89 13:46:33 04/16/10 (0)
    Not directly, but have heard both at different times. The HiB OPTs make a big difference to the Meishu and make it more neutral and transparent, while retaining the best elements of the romantic Meishu character. Also, the choice of 6SN7 in the preamp section and the 300B tube really do have a big impact on the Sonics.
    
    The Quest Silver's are more neutral and transparent and may have better dynamics. They don't have the same Romantic lilt as the Meishu, but are not grating and listening is always relaxing.
    
    The silver Meishu is definitely not as "tight" as the Quest Silvers, esp if you are using an M3 or better preamp on the Quests. Speakers matter, too.
    
    Drop Bob Neill at Amherst Audio a line and see what he can add.
    
    I own the Meishu silvers. I use them with K speakers and an AN CD4.1x digital source.
    "What did the Romans ever do for us?"
RE: Sonic Signature of Caps??? - DougE 18:48:05 04/15/10 (5)
Mundorf Mtube caps are ok to use in the power supply, although they do have their own sound. I have commented on my experience with them in other posts here as I used them in the M2 power supply in both the L3 and Dac kits.

In brief, they are very clean and detailed with a wide soundstage. This is a good thing, in general, to my ears. However, when compared to Blackgates, I'd give the nod to the BG. The sound is more fleshed out and deeper with better texture.

Again, this is to my ears, and others who have listened to the same kits preferred the Mundorfs. I've read here that the Mundorfs are not in keeping with the AN house sound, and I tend to agree. The AN house sound is romantic and darker than what a lot of other brands seem to strive for.
- RE: Sonic Signature of Caps??? - AstroSonic 08:16:29 04/16/10 (4)
  Doug,
  
  Very informative post, both as to the MTube sound, comparison to the BG sound and comment on the AN sound.
  
  With respect to using BG's as filter caps in high voltage positions: the limited availability of BG's with a high voltage (300+ volts) rating makes their use possible only by wiring them in series. How does the BG sound fare when used this way?
  
  As another alternative, could the MTubes be bypassed by AN copper/oils or other caps that might flesh-out the sound a bit more, but with minimal 'side effects'.
  
  Regards,
  
  Bob
  - Bg in series and bypassing Mtube Mundorfs, anyone? - DougE 12:20:51 04/16/10 (3)
    Bob,
    
    Good questions about sound quality of BG in series and bypassing the Mundorf--I don't know as I haven't tried it. Hopefully someone can step in with experience in either of these.
    
    Now that you mention it, I should have tried bypassing the caps in the M2 ps, as it likely is very audible. Maybe someone with the Mtubes is willing to give this a try if noone has yet. The AN Cu foil would be in keeping with the AN house sound and isn't too pricey for the value needed.
    
    You are spot on in regards to finding the BG 500V WKZ as they are becoming increasingly difficult to find. If anyone knows of a stash, share here, please!
    
    Best,
    Doug
    - RE: Bg in series and bypassing Mtube Mundorfs, anyone? - Tubeheadz 20:49:20 04/16/10 (2)
      The two large smoothing caps C3 and C5 are bypassed by C1 which is a film cap. This is one of the reasons that Mundorf caps sound so different in this application that they change the sonic signature of the whole amp. I also think that the AN copper caps are best reserved for coupling applications... the Tins work very adequately here. I have tried both Black Gates and certain Panasonics in the M2 p.s. and the difference is surprisingly small.... who would have thought!
      - Functions of C1 and C8 - AstroSonic 19:35:58 04/17/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Bg in series and bypassing Mtube Mundorfs, anyone? posted by Tubeheadz on April 16, 2010 at 20:49:20
        
        Tubeheadz,
        
        The pentode in the 6BM8 is a series pass regulator. The triode is a high speed (wide band) error amplifier. C1 appears to bypass C3 (a power supply reservoir cap), but the regulator pentode is between them (C3 and C1). The pentode functions as a dynamic dropping resistor in a pi CRC filter.
        
        The B+ (stock) is taken off the top of the resistor string on the pentode's cathode. The error signal and the grid bias for the regulators error amplifier (the triode) come from the voltage dividers in this resistor string.
        
        C1 acts to correct the fastest and earliest portion of the �error� (really just the voltage drop across the power supplies impedance) caused by the analog stages drawing power. This cap needs to present a low impedance across the audio range, but only supplies energy during the short time between when the error voltage occurs and when the regulator responds. It covers (corrects) the leading edge of the error and decreases the error. If C1 does its job well, the regulator sees an error that it is fast enough to correct. A higher value cap in this position makes the regulator work harder, as it must correct the error and fill the droop in the cap.
        
        C8 is a coupling capacitor that passes the remaining error (stripped of the fast leading edge by C1) to the grid of the error amplifier (the 6BM8 triode). The signal that has passed through C8 is amplified by the triode and direct coupled to the grid of the series pass element (pentode), where it changes the series resistance (of the pentode) to compensate for the error. Any alteration of the error signal by C8 is amplified by the error correction amplifier (6BM8 triode). This causes the Pentode to produce a change in resistance that over or under corrects the actual error, resulting in coloration or worse.
        
        The functions of C1 (initial error correction/reduction) and C8 (coupling the remaining error to the error amplifier) place them in a position to strongly influence the sound quality of the analog stages, as you have observed.
        
        Regards,
        
        Bob
      - RE: Bg in series and bypassing Mtube Mundorfs, anyone? - The Mad Hatter 08:09:57 04/17/10 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: Bg in series and bypassing Mtube Mundorfs, anyone? posted by Tubeheadz on April 16, 2010 at 20:49:20
        
        This help tremendously -- thank you all SO much
        William Childress
RE: Sonic Signature of Caps??? - beto1 15:33:53 04/11/10 (1)
Hi,
for a general view, take a look here:
- http://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf (Open in New Window)
- RE: Sonic Signature of Caps??? - IkeH 18:27:58 04/21/10 (0)
  There is another interesting article.
  - The Great Capacitor Shoot out (Open in New Window)

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