ANK AudioKits Forum

ANK AudioKits support forum

Return to ANK AudioKits Forum

Audio Note Kits Forum

RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers

68.194.254.219

In Reply to: RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers posted by footsurg on March 04, 2009 at 18:35:29

A close friend and superb tech here in New York has built an SET amp using the most expensive trannies that AN has to offer. It sounded good but not worth any where near the money that is being spent on the amp. To me, nothing is. He is the factory authorized tech for the New York tri state area and a good amount of people use him.

I have heard the DAC I think it was the most expensive one(5.1X) and it was OK. It was in an all AN system. I guess when people have money there is nothing that doesn't justify the expense. We compared it to my modded Zhaolu DAC and although the 5.1X did some things better or different, it wasn't worlds better or different. Definitely not $32,000 or more better. And to think I only spent a total of $500 with the mods and the cost of the DAC.

But as you said, if it makes the sound you want the expense doesn't matter. To me digital is OK.

The AN DAC is just a digital chip that converts to analogue and then goes to its own output stage or preamp for the next stage. Some of the mods I've done to that DAC was to remove its output stage and go direct to an active preamp or just remove the active preamp and use a TVC volume control right from its output stage. Yes I know it uses I/V transformers and line out trannies but that is not worth any where near what is spent on them.

Follow Ups:

RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers - Peter Qvortrup 10:59:03 03/09/09 (0)
Dear Paul,

If nothing is worth the price why bother striving for it, I agree, but please consider that if this principle is applied to all human endeavours then we would still be living in caves and might perhaps even have been superceeded by a superior being who found the struggle and cost of striving worth the effort.

What more can I say?

Sincerely,
Peter Qvortrup
RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers - DRCope 05:54:03 03/05/09 (9)
First, it's quite possible to build a mediocre amp using superb transformers. I could put a Ferrari or Ford Cobra racing engine in a go-cart chassis with dismal overall results, but it would not follow from this that the engines were over-rated.(Sub any engine you think is great; I'm not a hi perf car afficianado, I just picked two out of the air.)

How you get into the DAC, the I/V transformation and how you get out are all critical. The best way to do all three is with transformers and thus the quality of the transformers used in all three places is critical. You've seriously glossed over this.

BTW, have you completely forgotten about the impact of the power supply(ies), or do you think they just don't matter?
Keep your ears and your mind open.
- RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers - xaudiomanx 06:57:00 03/05/09 (8)
  Sir,
  
  I beg to differ on the transformer issue. Transformers serve a purpose and good ones will do it better than poor ones(of course) but transformers inherently create their own issues(bandwith, type, etc.). I have A-B'd many transformer coupled items against cap coupling. If the output impedance were taken out of the equation and all things being equal, the cap coupled won out every time, as long as good ones are used.
  
  For power supplies? I am known for them. I have been told that my power supplies are so huge they can run neuclear submarines(all kidding aside). Whenever I build one I tend to get crazed. I am a firm beleiver in them and have been asked to build them for other builders out there. They are the heart and soul of any audio gear and ususally the most overlooked part as well. Some builder and manufacturers just want to get by. Not me! I over get by by a wide margin and it shows.
  
  I built a 100 watt power supply for my Zhaolu DAC and took it to levels no one ever addressed before. Why on a $200 DAC(at best)? Main reason is because I can. The other reason is I was hoping to get improvement and then some. I didn't! I got huge results. I would put the DAC up against anything out there. Not saying it's better. Just saying the cost per sound value is much greater.
  - RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers - DRCope 07:11:17 03/05/09 (7)
    You crack me up, you really do. I guess I should have said properly designed, specific-application-built transformers. Bandwidth? Allow me to share one small piece of an article on transformers, linked below for your edification:
    
    "At Audio Note� we have spent many hundreds of hours involved in a combination of theoretical research and experimental work to develop and combine proprietary interleaving methods and winding techniques to extend the bandwidth of our transformers to the point at which they could be considered not only excellent components from the technical standpoint, but virtually invisible from a sonic perspective. In some of our designs as many as five wires are wound onto the bobbin at the same time, using these methods a bandwidth of 5Hz to 200kHz is achievable with a transformer for single ended operation of a 300B triode."
    
    I have no idea what you mean by "type" as a limitation, but please read the article before replying.
    
    Audio Note is no stranger to quality caps. Anyone who has used their copper or silver foil caps recognizes that. And yet, as one progresses up through the Levels in DACs, pre-amps, or at very high levels, power amps, there comes a point where a transition takes place from capacitor-coupling to transformer-coupling and astonishing improvements take place. Maybe it's just a coincidence. Over and over and over again. Hunh. Go figure.
    
    Quoting wattage does not begin to address the complexities of power supplies. The fact that you start there speaks volumes.
    
    I tell you what, bring your modded Zhaolu DAC out to AKFest in Livonia, MI in May and let's have a listen, shall we?
    Keep your ears and your mind open.
    - The Audio Note� Transformer Design Philosophy (Open in New Window)
    - RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers - xaudiomanx 09:06:23 03/05/09 (6)
      Kind Sir,
      
      My eyes and ears are open. I have done every possible circuit using transformers and the such. They do limit bandwith no questions asked. it just becomes to what extent. I don't care how much experimentation there is. It is in the makeup of the tranny itself as an internal nature of the beast. KNOWN FACT!
      
      As for power supplies and their complexities. That's the whole point. They shouldn't be complex at all. The more thrown into them the more thrown out at you. Garbage in equals garbage out. More garbage in equals more garbage out. Power supplies in their true fashion is a downfall of every piece of audio gear made. It's just to what extent. They don't enhance in any way but what you don't want them to do is degrade either. The best way to hear music if it were possible would be just out of nowhere. But we all know that isn't possible. So what do we do about that? Make everything as simple as possible. Little amounts of everything except current capability. As I said in the last post I do everything to the umteenth multiplier but what I don't do is make anything complex. Regulators and the such is a No No for me but in terms of digital(which I hat but we have to use) it becomes essential so even that has to be done as simple as possible. Hence, simple regulation(Zhaolu DAC and others like it).
      
      I never said the Zhaolu DAC with my power supply will beat a tens of thousand $$$$$ DAC but I do know it won't be far behind either. Again, price per sound. I think maybe you should be the one who opens thy mind to other alternatives instead of going with price should sound better. I was of that thinking as well until I heard what lower priced units can do. As I said, "maybe not better but definitely in there with it!"
      
      As for articles written? Who were they written by? The designers for AN? I have no problem understanding that AN UK is a quality product and isn't for everybody. $5,000 for a pair of transfomers? Now that's nuts! Even Bill Gates would have to agree with that one. That is why they sell their so called lower version products to attract another audience(still cost more than average). I do that in my business and you know what? It works! I corner a higher income bracket of people where money is no object but I have to wait longer to get an approval and also relate to the lower income people where a penny saved is a penny earned. The difference between my lower systems and my higher systems is basically............ Nothing! Sure we cut sokme some of the bells and whistles out but they aren't really needed anyway to get a good job from us. Again, the more in the more tha can go wrong. Some people just want to know they spent more thinking in their own minds, they got more. Especially with audioers. The mind is a wonderful tool to use as a weapon against ones self. Someone wrote an article and it is the Bible what people live by.
      
      I can't change someones thinking nor do I try to. What I can ask is that they be more open minded on my end. I do think if you ever A-Bed with an open mind right next to one another you would have to agree that although there might be differences and some sonic advantages to what you have, but at what expense. But the other is right there with it. The output stage in that DAC is nothing more than a buffer preamp with a low output impedance. You can use it without another active preamp after it. As a matter of fact I think Peter from AN suggests it.
      
      I had a DAC 5.1(X I think it was) here at my house and used it for a good long while. It sounded great but so does my DAC. A friend/tech for AN lent it to me for listening as a possible purchase(I was able to get it for cost) and I was impressed but not to any length that I wanted to buy it for that kind of money.
      - RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers - DRCope 09:47:49 03/05/09 (5)
        
        In Reply to: RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers posted by xaudiomanx on March 05, 2009 at 09:06:23
        
        Tap dance all you like. If you say 5hz - 200khz is limited, I have to ask what you're after. DC to daylight?
        
        Making things as simple as possible but NO SIMPLER is an Audio Note watchword. (Watch-phrase?) Many improvements have been made by removing things: digital filters, then any filters at all in the DACs, the third gain stage in a growing number of Audio Note power amps. Complexity for its own sake is certainly useless and counterproductive, but so is tossing out entire concepts because you've heard an iteration where it didn't work well. Such is the case with regulation. I've heard regulation strangle the music right out of an amplifier. Then again, the Audio Note Galahad power supply reduces noise to such a level that is has been patented and has application in medical and test equipment.
        
        Yes, Audio Note - Peter Qvortrup and Andy Grove - write the articles. Those who haven't done the research can't very well write them, now can they? However, anyone can hear and or measure the results, preferably on a system that can resolve the differences.
        
        A really out-there Audio Note system such as the one demo'd at RMAF last fall, uses at least 5 transformer stages. Moving coil step-up, RIAA (in M9 Phono), pre OPT, P4 Balanced input, interstage and OPT. People who heard Metal, Mahler or anything in-between on this system were floored by its life-like qualities. In three days of running the room, I never heard anyone suggest that the system was somehow badnwidth-limited. This goes on all year all around the world. If transformers were such bad boys, don't you imagine compounding that bad boy behavior compounded FIVE TIMES would have been clearly audible - probably disastrous? Hunh. Didn't happen.
        
        Dropping a DAC 5 (the options are Special or Signature, BTW) into a system of unknown provenance and declaring the benefits nearly inaudible is a non-starter. There's no way of knowing what can or cannot be discerned therein.
        
        As far having an open mind, I suggested doing a shoot-out at AKFest. Who said I would be bringing a 10s of thousands of dollars DAC? It's more likely to be a $2k DAC fed from my MacBook Pro or a $3k CD player. I'm hoping to get Brian to do an Audio Note Kits room as well. Audio Note will be there and you're invited. The mind is open; the door is open.
        
        Keep your ears and your mind open.
        
        RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers - xaudiomanx 11:48:41 03/05/09 (4)
        
        In Reply to: RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers posted by DRCope on March 05, 2009 at 09:47:49
        
        Just because they wrote it's gospel. I guess I'll have to go with as well. I as well, deal with what I think to be top of the liners but at the end of the day I make my evaluations with my ears. I was at one time a cool aid drinker myself but since I found out how bad cool aid was for your health I started drinking water. Yup! Just plain water. It works for me.
        
        Give me a break with these audio rooms. Been there, done that! They put the best of the best they have to offer and then add on to that as well. I know! Turn down the lights as well! Been there, done that also! Hey! We're listening to a movie without the video. That is not the norm. If it all works together take out one component and substitute for say something of another brand. That is the norm more than not. But I think we are getting off the track here.
        
        Bye the way, those test results is not under actual operating conditions. It's like a 2 cylinder car that hit 150 MPH for a split second downhill. Now they can claim it hits 150MPH. You drive cars(I assume). Did you really ever get the mileage on the window sticker as offered by the car company?
        
        I know I can't hear in the range of its limitations but going full out gives the prior frequencies the ability be heard better.
        
        Maybe the DAC was a 4.1. I can't remember at this time. It was their latest and greatest of that time(it was so long ago). It was about $30K or the thereabouts. I don't get into astronomical numbers. I do know after I bypassed the output section and put in my own 26 tube output section the DAC did much better. I think they were 6922 tubes at the time and they aren't the best choice to my ears anyway. If I am going triode, DHT's are the best to me.
        
        As for power supplies I do know the AN circuits quite well. Nothing that hasn't been done before a million times over. The designer just makes it prettier than others.
        
        I A-Bed a modified( I made a much larger power supply) Bottlehead 300B against the AN 300B SET amp. I think it was the Conquest or Conquerer(something like that). It used one 300B tube. Again, it was a long time ago. They were both right there and when you take the cost factor even modified the Bottlehead was the better amp. If the AN was better, it was better looking! Oh I forgot to say I used a Magnequest output tranny. That was one of the Bottlehead upgrades.
        
        Well, maybe I'll see you at that show! Keep in touch with that. I usually don't go to them because of the same rhetoric.
        
        If you want the real deal go the the Serious Audio website. Dennis Fraker builds some mean stuff. Very expensive and for the life of me I have no idea why but it sure does sound good.
        
        Still! $5000 for transformers? Tell me there's no profit there! That's plain nuts! I would like an actual list of all the amps he sold with those or just the trannies. Nothing, and I do mean nothing, warrants that number. Even if he took a month to make just that pair only, it wouldn't warrant that number.
        
        RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers - DRCope 12:39:20 03/05/09 (3)
        
        In Reply to: RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers posted by xaudiomanx on March 05, 2009 at 11:48:41
        
        > Just because they wrote it's gospel. I guess I'll have to go with as well. I as well, deal with what > I think to be top of the liners but at the end of the day I make my evaluations with my ears.
        Hence the invite to come hear with your own ears. At the risk of boring everyone here to death, there aren't many people doing transformer research, so who would you like to have write about it?
        > I was at one time a cool aid drinker myself but since I found out how bad cool aid was for > your health I started drinking water. Yup! Just plain water. It works for me.
        And this is relevant how?
        > Give me a break with these audio rooms. Been there, done that! They put the best of the best > they have to offer and then add on to that as well. I know! Turn down the lights as well! Been > there, done that also! Hey! We're listening to a movie without the video. That is not the norm. > If it all works together take out one component and substitute for say something of another > brand. That is the norm more than not. But I think we are getting off the track here.
        You're right. Silly me. Who listens in rooms? Movies? video? What? Normally we only bring the best of the best to Milan and sometimes THE Show and we generally have two rooms of vastly different levels at each. For smaller shows, we demo more modest stuff. This year at
        AKFest it'll mostly be the new Zero Level stuff, which is as modest as it gets. We almost never sub anything during a show. My invitation for you to bring your DAC is a very rare thing. Well, one of us certainly is getting off track.
        > Bye the way, those test results is not under actual operating conditions. It's like a 2 cylinder > car that hit 150 MPH for a split second downhill. Now they can claim it hits 150MPH. You drive > cars(I assume). Did you really ever get the mileage on the window sticker as offered by the car > company?
        I don't know the test conditions, nor do you. An order of magnitude/3+ octaves beyond audibility directions is fairly amazing.
        > I know I can't hear in the range of its limitations but going full out gives the prior frequencies > the ability be heard better.
        Again, holy crud this is boring, are you a whale-bat hybrid? This is over three octaves beyond your hearing limits, assuming you're rather young and have stayed off of subways and never went to a school dance or a rock concert, which is quite possible . . . .
        > Maybe the DAC was a 4.1. I can't remember at this time. It was their latest and greatest of > that time(it was so long ago). It was about $30K or the thereabouts. I don't get into > astronomical numbers. I do know after I bypassed the output section and put in my own 26 > tube output section the DAC did much better. I think they were 6922 tubes at the time and > they aren't the best choice to my ears anyway. If I am going triode, DHT's are the best to me.
        So you took a DAC with transformers designed to operate optimally with 6922 and subbed in a Type 26. And you think it improved things. Do you also run your lawn mower on kerosene?
        > As for power supplies I do know the AN circuits quite well. Nothing that hasn't been done > before a million times over. The designer just makes it prettier than others.
        Prettier? Thanks very much, although Peter will be quite upset. He's dead set against the audio porn of solid billet faceplates that double as battleship bulkheads, etc and we listen to people moan all day long about how plain it all looks. Although the kit stuff does look a good bit more appealing than many other kits, if that's what you meant.
        > I A-Bed a modified( I made a much larger power supply) Bottlehead 300B against the AN 300B > SET amp. I think it was the Conquest or Conquerer(something like that). It used one 300B > tube. Again, it was a long time ago. They were both right there and when you take the cost > factor even modified the Bottlehead was the better amp. If the AN was better, it was better > looking! Oh I forgot to say I used a Magnequest output tranny. That was one of the Bottlehead > upgrades.
        Is your memory that bad or are you allergic to specifics? The Conqueror and Conquests are a ways apart, Bottlehead has made a couple 300B amps with wild variations in custom MQ OPTs and experimentation is the name of the game there, so who knows what you were comparing. I helped form New England Bottleheads back in the day, and held one meeting at my (former) Audio Note shop. I would say things leaned quite the other way, but then I would, so in the end, neither of us is going to take the other's word for any of this.
        > Well, maybe I'll see you at that show! Keep in touch with that. I usually don't go to them > because of the same rhetoric.
        I don't get involved in rhetoric and dogma whenever I can avoid it, especially at shows where I'd rather not say anything and just play music unless someone has a question.
        > If you want the real deal go the the Serious Audio website. Dennis Fraker builds some mean > stuff. Very expensive and for the life of me I have no idea why but it sure does sound good.
        I may have heard his stuff at RMAF. Don't recall. Are you relenting and allowing for the possibility that something might be expensive for reasons you don't understand and still sound good? Don't go soft on us now! ;-)
        > Still! $5000 for transformers? Tell me there's no profit there! That's plain nuts! I would like an > actual list of all the amps he sold with those or just the trannies. Nothing, and I do mean > nothing, warrants that number. Even if he took a month to make just that pair only, it wouldn't > warrant that number.
        There's so much that could be said here, but there's clearly no point. I wish you much happiness in your corner of the world.
        Keep your ears and your mind open.
        
        Edits: 03/05/09
        
        RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers - Lilja 12:49:14 03/06/09 (2)
        
        In Reply to: RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers posted by DRCope on March 05, 2009 at 12:39:20
        
        Very interesting discussion you gays have. To put it this way. I have tried lots of A-N Dacs. 1.1 std and with lots of different upgrades. Dac 2.1 6922/12AU7 and 5687 with OPT`s. And i have to say that the 5687 with OPT`s is the only one that sounds really linear is the 5687 OPT dac. The other dacs sounds great and very impressive but not as correct as the 5687 with OPT`s. What you like best is a matter of taste but in my opinion the 5687 is the best of the best.
        
        Best regards
        Olof
        
        RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers - AstroSonic 11:00:06 03/08/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers posted by Lilja on March 06, 2009 at 12:49:14
        
        I would just like to reiterate what Olof said (paraphrased): The DAC Kit 2.1 Level C with the standard IE core output transformers is an outstanding performer. Mine has the 'Signature' parts upgrades and to my ears WAY outperforms my previous DAC (a well regarded solid state 24/96 upsampler, with lots of direct coupling, and an output stage rated to drive a 600 ohm load). The 2.1 does not subjectively have as extended LF and HF, is not as detailed sounding, and (the 2.1) lacks a glow or air around the performance. However, the 2.1 is superior at separating out individual instrumental lines, has better macro and micro dynamics, individual notes have far more natural harmonic character, lacks the solid state glow (artificial air) and other electronic artifacts, and offers a far superior sense of musical flow. Now I am not going to say that the 2.1 is 'better' than my previous dac. The merit of a dac depends a great deal on system synergy, and on personal preference with respect to the virtues offered by each candidate dac. It's just that my preferences have been evolving toward minimizing electronic artifacts while maximizing dynamics, musical flow and natural harmonic richness. For me and in my system, the 2.1 (with USB input and Mac mini music server) is a major step forward. Amazingly, this is done with no oversampling, a tubed analog stage, transformer digital input, transformer I/V and coupling to the analog stage, no brick wall filter, and a transformer coupled analog output stage! As always, the proof is in the sound.
        
        Regards,
        
        Bob
        
        RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers - GTCharlie 19:11:58 03/06/09 (0)
        
        In Reply to: RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers posted by Lilja on March 06, 2009 at 12:49:14
        
        Hi L. Am curious. What topology/circuit were your 5687 wired? Same SRPP as in the 6922? or what? Did you do just the 5687 capacitor coupled? or always with transformer out? What was your output voltage, peak-to-peak? TIA
RE: DAC 2.1 Level C with C-core output transformers - footsurg 20:18:11 03/04/09 (0)
I am just getting into digital seriously so maybe thats why I so impressed with these DACs. I have 12k Lps, and have pretty much been exclusive to the analog until very recently. If you have a DAC that you only have $500 in parts in and can sonically deliver 90% of what the maxed out AN DACs can, then I say thats incredible. I would love to hear one. I have sampled many DACs at RMAF for the last 3 years and in our local Dallas/North Texas/Oklahoma DIY club. I still have heard nothing that can even come close to the Audio Note experience. Meaning an all AN system including cables etc. That certainly does not mean that there is not something better out there. I just personally have not heard it. And I think we are both correct in believing that what is really is important is how much pleasure is derived from the audio experience.

It would be great if it could always be done cheaply. However that has not been my experience. I would be VERY interested in knowing what you're doing that yields the results you speak of. Please feel free to fire me an email with details.

Kindly

Post a Followup:

FAQ

Post a Message!

Forgot Password?

Moniker (Username):
Password (Optional):
	Remember my Moniker & Password (What's this?) Eat Me
E-Mail (Optional):
Subject:

Message:	(Posts are subject to Content Rules)

Optional Link URL:
Optional Link Title:
Optional Image URL:
Upload Image:
E-mail Replies:	Automagically notify you when someone responds.

To view your new posting or follow-up, click on the RELOAD or REFRESH button on your browser.

This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors:

The Cable Cooker