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In Reply to: How can I tell the difference between a nude stylus and a bonded? posted by violinist3 on May 15, 2007 at 01:29:28:
You're pretty much correct. 'Nude' Styli were pretty much the product of Namiki and Japanese supplier of Styli and cantilever assemblies (among other things). They would laser cut a hole in a cantilever assembly and then insert a long stylus into the hole and glue it in.Benz and they used to OEM a tremendous amount of Styli/cantilever assemblies also, uses the bonded assembly. They claim butting the bare stylus against the cantilever and then adding the glue like a welding fillet around the stylus makes for less 'play' in the overall structural integrity.
Pick your poison.
Follow Ups:
Hi, The Japanese are clearly NOT the originators of nude stylii. This was done long before laser cutting existed. I have had some Ortofon and ESL(made by Orto) mono carts, as well as their early stereo carts, which do have nude mounted stylii, and beautiful ones at that !
Speaking of increases in mass with a bonded tip, that is a crazy notion, indeed, IMHO. Do you really think that a 1/4 milligram will make a detrimental difference to moving mass ? No way ! While the cartridge manufacturers would like you to think so, that is a crazy notion. How can a cartridge manufacturer even try to pull one over on us, with the so called tip mass spec ? Just think of all the highish mass arms we use, tracking moving coil carts at 2000 milligrams. How can the cart mfr. use that spec, when he doesn't even know which arm we might be using ?
Besides that discussion/argument, let us count the large number of cartridges with bonded tips that sound fantastic. Most early stereo carts that are still very competitive today, sonically speaking, have bonded tips. Early stereo Bang & Olufsen SP I and SP II, Elac 200, 210, 222, Empire 108 & 88, Fairchild SM-1 and SM-2, Pickering/Stanton 371 & 380, ADC, Shure M3D et al, used bonded tips. Have you seen the prices on some of these, lately, on the bay ?
The Fairchilds get $200. and the Shure M3D is now over $100. Their pricing is for their sonic virtues more than their early stereo curiousity.
I believe the first USA mass marketed stereo cartridges with nude stylii, were the Shure M91ED and V15-II, as well as the Empire 999VEX and other top line variations, all seen in the late '60s, still before micro-laser cutting. The early '60s Ortofon SPU/SPE, with its' nude mounted, long life diamond is still the world reference, sonically, by the way.
Getting back to the mass debate, what about that dab of glue ? It weighs something, too. So, do you think the small bonding bushing, holding the bonded tip, weighs much more than the nude diamond shaft ? With a diamond being the hardest, densest material, probably not, right ? However, what does it matter ? It is the sound we are after. There are plenty of bonded diamond cartridges that are sonically worthy of your listening. ENJOY !!!
I believe the nude styli you are referring to is a different construction from what I wrote about. Grados, for example, used a form of the nude stylus in mounting the stylus in a socket punched in the aluminum cantilever shaft. IIRC the edges of the socket were urnished around the stylus assembly. This form of a nude stylus did have a tendency to lose their styli as the aluminum corroded, however.Please, I did not say that I preferred one form or another, just reiterated some of the arguments pro and con. As for tip mass, it really does make a difference, but that difference is also compounded by the suspension of the cartridge body. One can easily negate the other.
For a hands on comparison, try comparing the current Grado styli with the older ones with a larger tip mass. Perhaps the sonic differences may be attributed to modifications in the stylus shape (Grado makes no claims, so I am assuming they are the same), but there is a sight difference in the sound.
The Benz people actually claim a lower mass because of the nature of their bonding. They also claim the gap necessary for the insertion of the laser cut nude styli means that there is a gap which is filled with glue and hence a source for unwanted movement versus the direct contact that the bonding technique they use provides.
Cartridge body weight has no bearing on the stylus/cantilever assembly. The stylus/cantilever has to move and track the groove. The overall cartridge weight is static and easily counterbalanced by the arm's counterweight. A truly frictionless arm would be modulated by the motion of the groove. It is the mass which provides inertia enabling the cantilever to move and create the generator's output.
Overall, I believe we are on the same side. I certainly believe every engineering solution has its own unique qualities, pro and con. It is the balance of numerous factors which is more important for the overall sound.
Stu
Your the Grado modification guy. Can Audio technica MM carts be helped out a little bit? A while ago you were talking about 'fortifying' cantilevers with a tiny bit of glue. I have an AT11E. Any possibilities with that one?
I'm sure the AT can be modified also, just that I haven't much hands on experience with them so I can't pinpoint the exact mods which are applicable. IIRC AT has a removable stylus assembly. If you have an AT with an aluminum cantilever and want a stiffer cantilever, a toothpick, steady hands, and a strong light will enable you to place a tiny drop on the top side of the cantilever (away from the stylus!). Smear it lengthwise and the dried glue will stiffen the cantilever noticeably. I am not responsible if you get the super glue on your stylus!
Also a tiny piece of mu metal placed on top of the cartridge body helps reinforce the magnetic field. I've also tried the little ferrite plates made by Steward and sold in the digikey catalog. They are a little too big so I crack them and use a diamond stone sharpener to get it down to the appropriate size, They also work well in certain cartridges (I tried it on Shures and they give tremendous bottom end!) Nice thing about this is that it is easily removable.
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