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In Reply to: Re: Anyone put their turntable on a sub? posted by gnugear on May 4, 2007 at 00:17:25:
My turntable is located in the corner of my room next to my right speaker and subwoofer. It isn't sitting on my subwoofer, but it's close. Both my subwoofer and turntable stand are spiked to a concrete slab underneath the carpet. Consequently, many records sound just fine, but some with heavy bass cause audible acoustic feedback. I get around this by copying vinyl to CD-R with my speakers turned off. Then I play the CD-Rs with all the bass and volume that I want, and they sound excellent without any hint of acoustic feedback. You might want to explore a similar option because there is simply no way you can have acceptable sound quality with your turntable near a subwoofer let along sitting on top of one.
Follow Ups:
Not to be overly critical but really how can you compare a vinyl release to a CD release in this kind of setup? Do you first copy your vinyl to a CD and then compare the two CDs?Wouldn't a reasonable person believe vinyl is at a severe disadvantage in comparisons like this?
BTW - thanks for the CDs! I'm going to order up some vinyl and do some comparisons in a bit. Thanks again!
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Normally, I use headphones to compare commercial CD releases to vinyl. However, I have on several occasions copied LPs to the hard drive on my Masterlink and made comparisons through my speakers.> Wouldn't a reasonable person believe vinyl is at a severe disadvantage in comparisons like this?
Not exactly sure what you mean. Vinyl is always at a disadvantage compared to digital, but I'm not sure what you're getting at.
There is no audible difference between a 24/96 digital copy of an LP on my Masterlink and the LP itself whether through headphones or through speakers. Of course, you have to compare a different digital copy through headphones than through speakers because the headphone comparison requires a speakers-off recording whereas the speaker comparison requires a speakers-on recording.
An even simpler way to show that the digital process has no audible effect on the sound of vinyl is to place the Masterlink in its record mode, which sends the signal through its A/D and D/A converters. Then by simply switching between source and tape on the control preamp a comparison can be made. There is no audible difference.
Great you do vinyl v. CD comparisons through headphones and using digital recordings of vinyl when using speakers.I have thought your opinions on CD v. vinyl to be pretty close to mine and I had concluded your apparent digital preference to be because of your choice of TT. I'm not so sure about this anymore as it appears vinyl might be even more disadvantaged in your system. Granted though I do admit messing up the sound of a SOTA TT might be beyond the ability of a good CDP.
I don't consider headphone listening the same experience as listening through speakers and I am convinced a digital recording of a vinyl LP does not sound the same as the LP played back on the same TT. In fact they don't sound the same or there would be no reason for you to make the digital recording in the first place.
An even simpler way to show that the digital process has no audible effect on the sound of vinyl is to place the Masterlink in its record mode, which sends the signal through its A/D and D/A converters. Then by simply switching between source and tape on the control preamp a comparison can be made. There is no audible difference.Short term A/B comparisons have always failed me in the past.
> > An even simpler way to show that the digital process has no audible effect on the sound of vinyl is
> > to place the Masterlink in its record mode, which sends the signal through its A/D and D/A converters.
> > Then by simply switching between source and tape on the control preamp a comparison can be made.
> > There is no audible difference.> Short term A/B comparisons have always failed me in the past.
Actually, there is no time limit involved in this method of comparison. The switching is seamless. You can switch every 10-seconds or every 10-days at your discretion. The point is that there is no audible difference. Let's get real; if the difference between an LP and its digital copy were as significant as many here believe, it should be no problem hearing a difference in short term A/B comparisons. However, there is absolutely no audible difference short-term or long-term.
["Let's get real; if the difference between an LP and its digital copy were as significant as many here believe, it should be no problem hearing a difference in short term A/B comparisons. However, there is absolutely no audible difference short-term or long-term."]If you can't detect meaningful differences, it doesn't reflect other's experiences as mere beliefs.
Let's get real; if the difference between an LP and its digital copy were as significant as many here believe, it should be no problem hearing a difference in short term A/B comparisons. However, there is absolutely no audible difference short-term or long-term.Wow! Long term listening through a pair of headphones. Like you said "lets get real"!!!
Yeah, let's get real. What makes you think you have to listen through headphones. You can listen any way you like. I use both speakers and headphones. The easiest way to conduct a valid A/B comparison on my system through speakers is as follows.An even simpler way to show that the digital process has no audible effect on the sound of vinyl is
to place the Masterlink in its record mode, which sends the signal through its A/D and D/A converters.
Then by simply switching between source and tape on the control preamp a comparison can be made.
There is no audible difference.This procedure can be used with speakers or headphones simply by putting an LP on the turntable and playing it while switching between tape and source. You can switch every 10-seconds or you can switch every 10-days, whichever you prefer. You are either listening to the turntable directly (source) or you are listening to a digitally processed signal through the Masterlink (tape).
You said -My turntable is located in the corner of my room next to my right speaker and subwoofer. It isn't sitting on my subwoofer, but it's close. Both my subwoofer and turntable stand are spiked to a concrete slab underneath the carpet. Consequently, many records sound just fine, but some with heavy bass cause audible acoustic feedback. I get around this by copying vinyl to CD-R with my speakers turned off.
I'm questioning the veracity of your CD v. TT experiences with such a system.
You claim many records sound just fine, I suspect even the sound on these records is affected by acoustic feedback, though not obviously so. I don't see how you can expect do long term listening comparisons through speakers in this setup at all.
As a result of acoustic feedback when playing vinyl through speakers, I feel it is more accurate to make comparisons between commercial CDs and LPs using headphones, only. Therefore, I use headphones for this type of comparison and I have never failed to hear a difference.Another type of comparison in which I do not hear a difference is when I copy vinyl with my Masterlink digital recorder. I can make this comparison through headphones or through speakers. Either way I hear no difference but the procedure is slightly different for each case.
For headphone comparisons, the LP must be copied with speakers turned off. For speaker comparisons, the LP must be copied with speakers playing at the same volume level at which the test will be conducted in order to capture any acoustic feedback from the speakers.
Another way to make this sort of comparison without actually copying the LP is to send its signal through the A/D and D/A converters of the Masterlink. This can be done in real time by putting the Masterlink in the record mode. Then the LP can be played and listened to through speakers or headphones while conducting A/B comparisons using the "source/tape monitor switch" on the control preamplifier.
I hope this clears up any confusion.
As a result of acoustic feedback when playing vinyl through speakers, I feel it is more accurate to make comparisons between commercial CDs and LPs using headphones, only. Therefore, I use headphones for this type of comparison and I have never failed to hear a difference.I usually hear differences between a commercially released CD and it's vinyl counterpart. Always! I'm suprised you aren't hearing it as well. New music on CDs is often superior to the LP counterpart - but not always. I think garage, noisy and grundgy sounding rock music usually sounds better on LP and IME the CD versions of other new music are usually better produced than the vinyl releases. Occasion with new music I do consider it a wash as too which one is preferable Older music, especially pre CD-era, but even releases into the early 90s, are more often better on vinyl. These are generalizations and it's not difficult to find exceptions.
I've attribute these difference to mastering and production - not inherent difference between vinyl and CD. Often these differences are not subtle.
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Another type of comparison in which I do not hear a difference is when I copy vinyl with my Masterlink digital recorder. I can make this comparison through headphones or through speakers. Either way I hear no difference but the procedure is slightly different for each case.
For headphone comparisons, the LP must be copied with speakers turned off. For speaker comparisons, the LP must be copied with speakers playing at the same volume level at which the test will be conducted in order to capture any acoustic feedback from the speakers.
Another way to make this sort of comparison without actually copying the LP is to send its signal through the A/D and D/A converters of the Masterlink. This can be done in real time by putting the Masterlink in the record mode. Then the LP can be played and listened to through speakers or headphones while conducting A/B comparisons using the "source/tape monitor switch" on the control preamplifier.
Not surprising whatsoever! If you can't hear the differences between a commercially released CD and it's commercially released vinyl counterpart why would you expect to hear a difference when you record the vinyl to a digital format and do the comparison?
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I hope this clears up any confusion.
If anything it goes to show that there wasn't any confusion. If you think I'm confused please point it out.
There's 3 points that stand out at the moment.
1.) Why can't you hear differences between commercial release vinyl and it's commercially release counterpart? Why does you vinyl system sound identical to your CDP?
2.) There's no way I could possibly do long term listening comparisons using headphones. It's uncomfortable, and for me at least, it's a different kind of listening experience than listening to speakers. I couldn't imagine spending even a fraction of the time I spend listening wearing headphones.
I rarely a/b and only consider it important when comparing recordings on rare occasions. I've never found two components that were close enough after long listening sessions to require somekind of a/b comparison.
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Again thanks for the recordings. I've listened to 3 of them - more than a couple of times each. I'm listening to the San Francisco LTD Charlie Byrd/Ed Graham disk again right now. This has been my favorite so far. The recordings sound quite good and I've play graded the 3 vinyls from low vg+ to vg++. I consider myself a conservative grader, a vg record is a decent play copy on my scale and a vg+ is except for the anal retentives amonst us. After qualifying sellers most mint/mint ebay records arrive here in nice vg to vg+ condition and that's good enough for me. The SF LTD was doing better than the other two for awhile but it sounds like it picks up a dust ball somewhere around track 8 or 9.
I'm going to buy 2 or 3 or these on vinyl and play them back on my Roksan and record them with my Sony WTC 50. I'm going to try to document the differences between the OL Silver which I have now and the Roksan Artemiz I'm planning on getting in a couple of months.
Then if you're interested I might make some CDs to illustrate the difference between the Roksan and the Sota. I think I can hear your TT in your CDs but I'm not familiar with these recordings, so until I get the vinyl I won't know for sure.
Allow me to say things even simpler in hopes that you will finally understand.I always hear differences between commercially released CDs and their vinyl counterparts.
I never hear differences between LPs and digital copies made on my Masterlink.
> Then if you're interested I might make some CDs to illustrate the difference between the Roksan and the Sota.
Yes, please! I would love to hear your Roksan.
My bad! Great I thought we were on the same page on that from previous threads/posts.Allow me to say things even simpler in hopes that you will finally understand.
I misread your comment - luckily it wasn't an ongoing point. Get over the finally understand crapola - it's you that are avoiding my points. I'm going to make things more simple just for you!Headphones mask qualities that are more readily apparently when listening through speakers - low bass and natural ambience for starters. Agree or disagree?
Because of your TTs location any comparisons with vinyl and with the speakers on are tainted - regardless if the feedback distortion has become clearly audible or not. Agree or disagree?
> Headphones mask qualities that are more readily apparently when listening
> through speakers - low bass and natural ambience for starters.Perhaps! Furthermore, if your statement is true, then differences heard in headphones can only be more apparent when listening through speakers. My point is that I always hear differences through headphones when comparing commercial CDs with their LP counterparts. Acoustic feedback is not a player and differences are always detected.
> Because of your TTs location any comparisons with vinyl and with the speakers on are tainted -
> regardless if the feedback distortion has become clearly audible or not.I agree! However I also believe that all vinyl systems have some level of acoustic feedback, which plays a role in their sonic character. Consequently, if you want to totally eliminate acoustic feedback from a comparison, using digital copies is an excellent method to employ.
Perhaps! Furthermore, if your statement is true, then differences heard in headphones can only be more apparent when listening through speakers.Not sure what the "if my statement is true" part is about. Seems to me differences could be masked by either sets of transducers.
I agree!
CDPs can be effected by acoustic feedback too!
BTW - you told me along time ago, probably more than a year ago, that you could hear differences in mastering and production of the same recording on different formats. I believed you then and still do. I apologize for the my response a couple back - I was being rushed out and in editing for last second changes I lost track of what you were saying - my apologies!
or when you desire more decibels w/o the resonant feedback. This is the reason I used to dub my vinyl on to cassette, and now CD-R's with little loss of musicality (portable to boot,) and it's much cheaper than most turntable isolation tweaks. I've thought about putting my turntable(s) in another room w/ an A/D converter to compensate for the long cable run to the main system, but your method works fine in the interim and produces very good results.
If you have an outboard phono section and locate it with your turntable, I think you can probably get away with a fairly long cable run to your control preamplifier. Moreover, if you have balanced I/O there should definitely be no problem.On the other hand, an Alesis ML-9600 Masterlink is my solution. ;-)
> I get around this by copying vinyl to CD-R with my speakers turned off. Then I play the CD-Rs with all the bass and volume that I want, and they sound excellent without any hint of acoustic feedback. <You aren't really getting around anything. You are just putting a band-aid on a broken arm......
> You aren't really getting around anything.You're absolutely wrong!
Copying vinyl to digital with speakers off in a quiet room eliminates feedback cause by sound, whether it takes the form of acoustic feedback or structural feedback or both. It eliminates speaker induced feedback completely.
No, you are wrong. The best scenario is to deal with the acoustic feedback in the room during vinyl playback. This is best accomplished by NOT haphazardly placing speakers, subs and/or electronics in one's listening room.
You can't deal with speaker induced feedback any better than having your speakers completely turned off!
> having your speakers completely turned off! <I'm sure that's also the way your system sounds it's best.
> > having your speakers completely turned off! <> I'm sure that's also the way your system sounds it's best.
Well, I'm sure you probably know more about that sort of stuff than I.
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