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Serious question!I've got a really small room with a concrete floor. I'm thinking of adding an svs boxed sub to my system but due to the lack of space I'm actually toying with the idea of putting my VPI Scoutmaster on top (maybe adding a Ginko isolation unit as well).
Since my floor isn't being energized by the sub, do you think the the cabinet will be inert enough to due the turntable justice?
Follow Ups:
HI,
I haven't read this entire thread so my comments are probably redundant. Sorry for that but I thought I would add weight to what I think is the majority opinion.THIS IS A TERRIBLE IDEA!!!! The sensitivity of a turntable, cartridge, and arm is extreme to outside vibration. Even if you get lucky and avoid howling acoustic feedback, even a tiny amout of vibration will distort the sound. Just as surely as spring follows winter.
Please, find another way to mount your turntable that is so solid that vibration cannot make entry.
It can be done but you won't like it.
You have that really nice table and you want to put it on a subwoofer???Not to put too fine a point on the previous posts, but surely, you can do better than that. Just think...
;-)
Even if you manage to totally isolate the TT from the vibrations transmited from the sub's enclosure by, say, floating the TT on an air bladder, you're putting the TT in middle of the strongest bass sound field in the room. The tonearm, the platter and the record itself are bathed in high energy sound waves.Think of the cartridge and stylus as the equivalent of a microphone -- because that's what it is, a device that translates vibrations into electrical signals. As a minimum, you will muddy up the sound.
add at least 3-4 more "really"s.
Henry
Yikes!
****
If I had more money I'd soon be broke...but I'd have more LPs!
not to mention the magnetic field put out by another amplifier and the substantial magnet of the driver...magnet on magnet... oof.. not the best combo!
i'd do a wall shelf!
That's a really good idea, provided you lock into the studs and don't depend upon just using anchor bolts in the sheetrock.My equipment is scattered along the "front wall" but I have my TT at the opposite end of that wall from where the sub is.
Even if you think you can't feel vibration, it's most likely there and will effect the sonic signature of the TT. There is an Apollo wall shelf on Ebay for $100 (it was there). It might be a good investment if you can use a wall shelf
Life has lots of trials and lots of music to help us through them.
..
I'm trying to determine the lesser of two evils. If I use a wall mount, I think the bass will actually create more vibrations in that particular area. If I leave the turntable by the floor, I'm close to the down firing driver. See what I mean? I was hoping that someone has experience with the SVS products and can comment on how inert their cabs are. I thought that maybe the woofer would energize the air around it but not so much the cabinet.
My turntable is located in the corner of my room next to my right speaker and subwoofer. It isn't sitting on my subwoofer, but it's close. Both my subwoofer and turntable stand are spiked to a concrete slab underneath the carpet. Consequently, many records sound just fine, but some with heavy bass cause audible acoustic feedback. I get around this by copying vinyl to CD-R with my speakers turned off. Then I play the CD-Rs with all the bass and volume that I want, and they sound excellent without any hint of acoustic feedback. You might want to explore a similar option because there is simply no way you can have acceptable sound quality with your turntable near a subwoofer let along sitting on top of one.
Not to be overly critical but really how can you compare a vinyl release to a CD release in this kind of setup? Do you first copy your vinyl to a CD and then compare the two CDs?Wouldn't a reasonable person believe vinyl is at a severe disadvantage in comparisons like this?
BTW - thanks for the CDs! I'm going to order up some vinyl and do some comparisons in a bit. Thanks again!
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Normally, I use headphones to compare commercial CD releases to vinyl. However, I have on several occasions copied LPs to the hard drive on my Masterlink and made comparisons through my speakers.> Wouldn't a reasonable person believe vinyl is at a severe disadvantage in comparisons like this?
Not exactly sure what you mean. Vinyl is always at a disadvantage compared to digital, but I'm not sure what you're getting at.
There is no audible difference between a 24/96 digital copy of an LP on my Masterlink and the LP itself whether through headphones or through speakers. Of course, you have to compare a different digital copy through headphones than through speakers because the headphone comparison requires a speakers-off recording whereas the speaker comparison requires a speakers-on recording.
An even simpler way to show that the digital process has no audible effect on the sound of vinyl is to place the Masterlink in its record mode, which sends the signal through its A/D and D/A converters. Then by simply switching between source and tape on the control preamp a comparison can be made. There is no audible difference.
Great you do vinyl v. CD comparisons through headphones and using digital recordings of vinyl when using speakers.I have thought your opinions on CD v. vinyl to be pretty close to mine and I had concluded your apparent digital preference to be because of your choice of TT. I'm not so sure about this anymore as it appears vinyl might be even more disadvantaged in your system. Granted though I do admit messing up the sound of a SOTA TT might be beyond the ability of a good CDP.
I don't consider headphone listening the same experience as listening through speakers and I am convinced a digital recording of a vinyl LP does not sound the same as the LP played back on the same TT. In fact they don't sound the same or there would be no reason for you to make the digital recording in the first place.
An even simpler way to show that the digital process has no audible effect on the sound of vinyl is to place the Masterlink in its record mode, which sends the signal through its A/D and D/A converters. Then by simply switching between source and tape on the control preamp a comparison can be made. There is no audible difference.Short term A/B comparisons have always failed me in the past.
> > An even simpler way to show that the digital process has no audible effect on the sound of vinyl is
> > to place the Masterlink in its record mode, which sends the signal through its A/D and D/A converters.
> > Then by simply switching between source and tape on the control preamp a comparison can be made.
> > There is no audible difference.> Short term A/B comparisons have always failed me in the past.
Actually, there is no time limit involved in this method of comparison. The switching is seamless. You can switch every 10-seconds or every 10-days at your discretion. The point is that there is no audible difference. Let's get real; if the difference between an LP and its digital copy were as significant as many here believe, it should be no problem hearing a difference in short term A/B comparisons. However, there is absolutely no audible difference short-term or long-term.
["Let's get real; if the difference between an LP and its digital copy were as significant as many here believe, it should be no problem hearing a difference in short term A/B comparisons. However, there is absolutely no audible difference short-term or long-term."]If you can't detect meaningful differences, it doesn't reflect other's experiences as mere beliefs.
Let's get real; if the difference between an LP and its digital copy were as significant as many here believe, it should be no problem hearing a difference in short term A/B comparisons. However, there is absolutely no audible difference short-term or long-term.Wow! Long term listening through a pair of headphones. Like you said "lets get real"!!!
Yeah, let's get real. What makes you think you have to listen through headphones. You can listen any way you like. I use both speakers and headphones. The easiest way to conduct a valid A/B comparison on my system through speakers is as follows.An even simpler way to show that the digital process has no audible effect on the sound of vinyl is
to place the Masterlink in its record mode, which sends the signal through its A/D and D/A converters.
Then by simply switching between source and tape on the control preamp a comparison can be made.
There is no audible difference.This procedure can be used with speakers or headphones simply by putting an LP on the turntable and playing it while switching between tape and source. You can switch every 10-seconds or you can switch every 10-days, whichever you prefer. You are either listening to the turntable directly (source) or you are listening to a digitally processed signal through the Masterlink (tape).
You said -My turntable is located in the corner of my room next to my right speaker and subwoofer. It isn't sitting on my subwoofer, but it's close. Both my subwoofer and turntable stand are spiked to a concrete slab underneath the carpet. Consequently, many records sound just fine, but some with heavy bass cause audible acoustic feedback. I get around this by copying vinyl to CD-R with my speakers turned off.
I'm questioning the veracity of your CD v. TT experiences with such a system.
You claim many records sound just fine, I suspect even the sound on these records is affected by acoustic feedback, though not obviously so. I don't see how you can expect do long term listening comparisons through speakers in this setup at all.
As a result of acoustic feedback when playing vinyl through speakers, I feel it is more accurate to make comparisons between commercial CDs and LPs using headphones, only. Therefore, I use headphones for this type of comparison and I have never failed to hear a difference.Another type of comparison in which I do not hear a difference is when I copy vinyl with my Masterlink digital recorder. I can make this comparison through headphones or through speakers. Either way I hear no difference but the procedure is slightly different for each case.
For headphone comparisons, the LP must be copied with speakers turned off. For speaker comparisons, the LP must be copied with speakers playing at the same volume level at which the test will be conducted in order to capture any acoustic feedback from the speakers.
Another way to make this sort of comparison without actually copying the LP is to send its signal through the A/D and D/A converters of the Masterlink. This can be done in real time by putting the Masterlink in the record mode. Then the LP can be played and listened to through speakers or headphones while conducting A/B comparisons using the "source/tape monitor switch" on the control preamplifier.
I hope this clears up any confusion.
As a result of acoustic feedback when playing vinyl through speakers, I feel it is more accurate to make comparisons between commercial CDs and LPs using headphones, only. Therefore, I use headphones for this type of comparison and I have never failed to hear a difference.I usually hear differences between a commercially released CD and it's vinyl counterpart. Always! I'm suprised you aren't hearing it as well. New music on CDs is often superior to the LP counterpart - but not always. I think garage, noisy and grundgy sounding rock music usually sounds better on LP and IME the CD versions of other new music are usually better produced than the vinyl releases. Occasion with new music I do consider it a wash as too which one is preferable Older music, especially pre CD-era, but even releases into the early 90s, are more often better on vinyl. These are generalizations and it's not difficult to find exceptions.
I've attribute these difference to mastering and production - not inherent difference between vinyl and CD. Often these differences are not subtle.
/*********************************************************?
Another type of comparison in which I do not hear a difference is when I copy vinyl with my Masterlink digital recorder. I can make this comparison through headphones or through speakers. Either way I hear no difference but the procedure is slightly different for each case.
For headphone comparisons, the LP must be copied with speakers turned off. For speaker comparisons, the LP must be copied with speakers playing at the same volume level at which the test will be conducted in order to capture any acoustic feedback from the speakers.
Another way to make this sort of comparison without actually copying the LP is to send its signal through the A/D and D/A converters of the Masterlink. This can be done in real time by putting the Masterlink in the record mode. Then the LP can be played and listened to through speakers or headphones while conducting A/B comparisons using the "source/tape monitor switch" on the control preamplifier.
Not surprising whatsoever! If you can't hear the differences between a commercially released CD and it's commercially released vinyl counterpart why would you expect to hear a difference when you record the vinyl to a digital format and do the comparison?
/*************************************************************/
I hope this clears up any confusion.
If anything it goes to show that there wasn't any confusion. If you think I'm confused please point it out.
There's 3 points that stand out at the moment.
1.) Why can't you hear differences between commercial release vinyl and it's commercially release counterpart? Why does you vinyl system sound identical to your CDP?
2.) There's no way I could possibly do long term listening comparisons using headphones. It's uncomfortable, and for me at least, it's a different kind of listening experience than listening to speakers. I couldn't imagine spending even a fraction of the time I spend listening wearing headphones.
I rarely a/b and only consider it important when comparing recordings on rare occasions. I've never found two components that were close enough after long listening sessions to require somekind of a/b comparison.
/***************************************************************/
Again thanks for the recordings. I've listened to 3 of them - more than a couple of times each. I'm listening to the San Francisco LTD Charlie Byrd/Ed Graham disk again right now. This has been my favorite so far. The recordings sound quite good and I've play graded the 3 vinyls from low vg+ to vg++. I consider myself a conservative grader, a vg record is a decent play copy on my scale and a vg+ is except for the anal retentives amonst us. After qualifying sellers most mint/mint ebay records arrive here in nice vg to vg+ condition and that's good enough for me. The SF LTD was doing better than the other two for awhile but it sounds like it picks up a dust ball somewhere around track 8 or 9.
I'm going to buy 2 or 3 or these on vinyl and play them back on my Roksan and record them with my Sony WTC 50. I'm going to try to document the differences between the OL Silver which I have now and the Roksan Artemiz I'm planning on getting in a couple of months.
Then if you're interested I might make some CDs to illustrate the difference between the Roksan and the Sota. I think I can hear your TT in your CDs but I'm not familiar with these recordings, so until I get the vinyl I won't know for sure.
Allow me to say things even simpler in hopes that you will finally understand.I always hear differences between commercially released CDs and their vinyl counterparts.
I never hear differences between LPs and digital copies made on my Masterlink.
> Then if you're interested I might make some CDs to illustrate the difference between the Roksan and the Sota.
Yes, please! I would love to hear your Roksan.
My bad! Great I thought we were on the same page on that from previous threads/posts.Allow me to say things even simpler in hopes that you will finally understand.
I misread your comment - luckily it wasn't an ongoing point. Get over the finally understand crapola - it's you that are avoiding my points. I'm going to make things more simple just for you!Headphones mask qualities that are more readily apparently when listening through speakers - low bass and natural ambience for starters. Agree or disagree?
Because of your TTs location any comparisons with vinyl and with the speakers on are tainted - regardless if the feedback distortion has become clearly audible or not. Agree or disagree?
> Headphones mask qualities that are more readily apparently when listening
> through speakers - low bass and natural ambience for starters.Perhaps! Furthermore, if your statement is true, then differences heard in headphones can only be more apparent when listening through speakers. My point is that I always hear differences through headphones when comparing commercial CDs with their LP counterparts. Acoustic feedback is not a player and differences are always detected.
> Because of your TTs location any comparisons with vinyl and with the speakers on are tainted -
> regardless if the feedback distortion has become clearly audible or not.I agree! However I also believe that all vinyl systems have some level of acoustic feedback, which plays a role in their sonic character. Consequently, if you want to totally eliminate acoustic feedback from a comparison, using digital copies is an excellent method to employ.
Perhaps! Furthermore, if your statement is true, then differences heard in headphones can only be more apparent when listening through speakers.Not sure what the "if my statement is true" part is about. Seems to me differences could be masked by either sets of transducers.
I agree!
CDPs can be effected by acoustic feedback too!
BTW - you told me along time ago, probably more than a year ago, that you could hear differences in mastering and production of the same recording on different formats. I believed you then and still do. I apologize for the my response a couple back - I was being rushed out and in editing for last second changes I lost track of what you were saying - my apologies!
or when you desire more decibels w/o the resonant feedback. This is the reason I used to dub my vinyl on to cassette, and now CD-R's with little loss of musicality (portable to boot,) and it's much cheaper than most turntable isolation tweaks. I've thought about putting my turntable(s) in another room w/ an A/D converter to compensate for the long cable run to the main system, but your method works fine in the interim and produces very good results.
If you have an outboard phono section and locate it with your turntable, I think you can probably get away with a fairly long cable run to your control preamplifier. Moreover, if you have balanced I/O there should definitely be no problem.On the other hand, an Alesis ML-9600 Masterlink is my solution. ;-)
> I get around this by copying vinyl to CD-R with my speakers turned off. Then I play the CD-Rs with all the bass and volume that I want, and they sound excellent without any hint of acoustic feedback. <You aren't really getting around anything. You are just putting a band-aid on a broken arm......
> You aren't really getting around anything.You're absolutely wrong!
Copying vinyl to digital with speakers off in a quiet room eliminates feedback cause by sound, whether it takes the form of acoustic feedback or structural feedback or both. It eliminates speaker induced feedback completely.
No, you are wrong. The best scenario is to deal with the acoustic feedback in the room during vinyl playback. This is best accomplished by NOT haphazardly placing speakers, subs and/or electronics in one's listening room.
You can't deal with speaker induced feedback any better than having your speakers completely turned off!
> having your speakers completely turned off! <I'm sure that's also the way your system sounds it's best.
> > having your speakers completely turned off! <> I'm sure that's also the way your system sounds it's best.
Well, I'm sure you probably know more about that sort of stuff than I.
....and put it either on your wall mount, or on a stand as close to the floor as you can tolerate. Hell, with this thing you could probably site it directly on your sub w/o ill effect. I am telling you, the Promethean Base works as advertised....
Oz
A small listening room, together with a subwoofer are Contraindicated. Wherever you may place your platterspinner. A system firing on all cylinders, into a small, room won't be crying out for additional low frequency support.Even if the floor is concrete, too much volume, or volume with strong LF will play havoc with the music's natural ease. Unless you're flying mini-monitors, I'd look to increase the spectral balance of your main speakers (with a different pair), before wasting time with a dedicated sub.
A different cart and perhaps use of tube electronics, can also bring a more pleasing/robust frequency balance as well. Adding an extra component to a sytem that is fundamentally lacking, is merely tail chasing. Keeps you busy while you're doing it ... but you don't really get anywhere.
My two cents ....
Supposedly Avid has demo'd tables on top of subs at shows, to demonstrate the effectiveness of their suspension scheme. Seems like a bad idea to me, and a suspensionless table worse yet.
Sure beats the heck out of listening to CDs!
Give me rhythm or give me death!
n/t
Bloke asks a serious question and cops that for his trouble. No wonder people are leaving in droves.Give me rhythm or give me death! You say well I know which I would give you.
OLLY
using your language to support your righteous indignation is lots more funny than my attempt at humor.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
Don T has insulted an audio asylum inmate that used language different than his own.As far as I understand, this board is not limited to one form of language. People from countries other than the US post here. IT IS WRONG TO LAUGH AND MOCK THEIR LANGUAGE.
This type of post should not be tolerated on these boards.
Don T has shown how small he truly is by saying this
***using your language*** to support your righteous indignation is lots more funny than my attempt at humor.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
This comment ***** using your language**** IS VERY VERY WRONG.
The moderators got better things to do than have to deal with drama queens like you.see link.
Give me rhythm or give me death!
- I'm sure, T&T, if you're not the only one interest enough to still be reading this thread you ARE the only one not getting the point! (Open in New Window)
Don T a ray of sunshine in a doom and gloom place. Read his posts's and your guaranteed to feel better. (hardcore sarcasm)I left this place years ago because of people like him. But I have a new way of dealing with the king of negative energy.
I Don T (Don't) read his posts. Works great for me.
...excuse me, there are many other positive people here to read and learn from.
Hey Don T sorry about your loss of Rhythm... I'd love to see you dance.
I left this place years ago because of people like him. But I have a new way of dealing with the king of negative energy.Please Pal it's your endlessly expensive failed audiophile experiences that cast a ray of doom and negative energy on these forums. And if you aren't posting about your miserable failures you can't stop hounding on people who are successful and happy with their audio experiences.
I try to help you out and what do I get? A clueless seething defensive lap dog! It's becoming abundantly clear you are much less to do about audio and tons to do about attention seeking.
Ok, so you don't have rhythm. (You keep asking for rhythm or death)I can help.
Now count to four. 1,2,3,4...repeat 1,2,3,4
Tap your foot along with this count..
Can you start to feel it? Feels good huh? Try it with your body now !!!
Your dancing !!!! WOOO HOOO> > > Don T is dancing!
I knew you could do it. See how good it can feel to actually help someone here? I feel great.
nt
Give me rhythm or give me death!
.....your ass seems to be puckering, it's so tight....
Personally I think they are becoming very regular and boring to boot. If they want to make those comments they should not be in the heading as they stand out for all to see. I suppose by making it stand out so much they are publically showing of their stupidity. Come to think of it I hope they keep it up and by doing so we will soon become aware of the serial offenders and just skip over their contribution and I use that word very lightly as they very rarely contribute anything except their dribble. This forum is getting more and more like the bad old days on CB. The only thing that is missing is the swearing and we can all be grateful for that.
OLLY
that was the very thing that attracted me over here from Agon. It was a sense of community. In community, there is a sense lightheartedness at times. And that is the way it used to be here. But it sure has changed over the years. Now it seems that there are some that take themselves entirely too serious, which often causes strife and harsh talk. IMO, this is the reason people are leaving.
Now if someone only contributes humor to the boards, then we might look at him/her as we would the Court Jester. But even the Court Jester had a role to play in the community. You just knew not to take his advice about important matters seriously.
Life has lots of trials and lots of music to help us through them.
What I think is that my sense of humor is vastly different than yours. Maybe different from many who post here, who knows. I can be a smartass myself, as I'm sure I am overstating the obvious now. I don't mind an off color or tongue in cheek remark from time to time. To me they are harmless and serve to bring some much needed lightness to the proceedings around here.BTW, if I have offended you or anyone else here at any time, it's your best guess as to whether or not I was serious. Maybe, maybe not......
I must have laughed for 5 minutes from visuals of someone actually doing that with their bike. I like some of those off the wall responses. I like when they follow it up with some advice too. Still funny though
Let's face it, this hobby can be a serious pain in the ass from so many different directions; humor is VERY important as far as I'm concerned.I've been posting on this board since early (and I mean REALLY early) in its beginning. It has gotten me through some extremely tough days, incredibly tough parts of my life. Throughout, I have never felt that I should be anything other than helpful and better, for me, a good student because my knowledge pales in comparison to many of the people who have posted here.
But we need to laugh often, afunny post doesn't need to be taken as being insensitive. Many time a question is asked in a way that strikes the reader as funny. Yes, people need anwers to their problems, but there are lots of times there have been more than enough comments leading the person who posed the question to the point where
they can make an informed (now) decision...the humor doesn't remove those posts that simply gave answers and information.I'm guilty of both humor (many times silly) with no info added and humor with information I know or know where to get that info!
Leaving in droves? I think more people leave a forum like this because of boredome than being upset with humorous comments. I stay only because it's an outlet for my feelings and to help when I can. Not a bad reason to keep coming to a me[ssage board, I don't think.
And...just when I think I've read every type of post, someone asks a question that's truly unique. And that, my fellow nutcases, is part of being human...we are capable of being unique!
It's a great life if you don't sweat the small stuff...and roll with the huge punches life can deal. This is one way to deal with life...our music is another; this place is only a small part of the what and why of music.
Laugh, dammit!
****
If I had more money I'd soon be broke...but I'd have more LPs!
The occasional well placed joke is funny. But people who routinely want to prove what a funny guy they are frequently come across (especially in something as impersonal as this) as a bit grating and obnoxious.
...especially the humor over boredom part, if you catch my drift (certain that you do).
I have got to hold my hand up to it... I do like the comments, silly or serious. I have a laugh at threads like this (nothing malicious)... as, of course, you are both right in your views but the differences are what make the world interesting, peoples responses and reactions.
But its the whole back and forth elements that I enjoy, a bit of sniping at each other and long standing jokes interspersed (is that a real word?) with good intent and information.
Maybe as somebody else mentioned, the lack of visual clues can make you unsure as to whether its information or insult, but I can take a joke and a jibe as I'm sure we all can.But many an evening I have a read through and have a good laugh... keeps me coming back.
Have alot of people really switched off...? How could we tell.
Are you me or am I you?No...you don't go on and on and on like I do. Great minds think alike, and all that stuff.
****
If I had more money I'd soon be broke...but I'd have more LPs!
I'm not laying it all on one person, and the VA seems to have it's ups and downs, but there is a reason so many people get fed up with this board. I am frequently surprised by some of the dickheaded responses to questions/posts around here. It's easy for statements to be misunderstood, given the lack of body language and verbal cues, but some guys seem to make an effort to be pricks whenever possible.
getting sick and tired of outright hypocritical attempts like yours at self-righteousness. As if you yourself are any better than those you label as "pricks".
Looking at the thread again, I can see your point to some degree. It was probably a bad place to make a statement I honestly believe. OTOH, it is hard to take your criticism seriously when you then feel the need to follow it up with something from the elementary playground.If it seemed that I was trying to get over on you specifically, I do apologize, but why not just make your point and take the high road?
I've got no interest in providing you a pulpit to proclaim your righteousness as you prove your hypocrisy.
By no means am I attempting to claim perfection, but I do make a conscious effort to maintain a base level civility. And there are some very funny retorts to posts that keep things interesting over the long haul. That said, there are people who seem to take every opportuntiy to take a potshot at others, and thump their chests whenever their ego takes a hit.Do find hostility and combativness an effective approach to life, or do you save it for the internet?
Please I've got better things to do, and in fact you've given me no reason to try to defend myself from someone who is doing nothin except proving themselves to be a hypocrite.There's nothing here for me to say other than you've went far beyond making yourself into one of the "pricks" (your word) you feel compelled to hound and attack. Your postition is oxymoronic!
Again give yourself a break - move on.
.
Requiring just a one word answer.
my wildest dreams - just asking for trouble
"Man is the only animal that blushes - or needs to" Mark Twain
That a bouncing turntable is not a fun diversion in a listening room?Images of slinkies and permanently damaged LPs are flooding my mind.....
Some of the albums I find in the thrift stores are awesome recordings looking like they were played by a toddler.
A turntable on a subwoofer is about as practical as an eye surgeon performing catarac surgery in a moving mass transit bus.
bad idea! too many vibrations!
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