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In Reply to: noise vs no noise posted by OMalley on April 25, 2007 at 08:38:20:
Surface noise is seldom much of a distraction around here, but I'm fortunate to live reasonably close to the used record 'phool's paradise that is Amoeba, so I can routinely cherry-pick through lots o' near-mint waxy goodness. My 3K some-odd LPs are almost all relatively silent, and what surface noise there is usually seems once-removed and firmly stuck to the speakers while the music is free to promulgate outward and fill up the whole damn room.On the subject of vinyl vs. nasty-disc noise, I think it's a matter of comparing the sterile vacuum of digital silence with the room-filling blackness of analog. Seedys seem to filter out very low frequency ambient cues, while a well-recorded LP often replaces the walls of my listening room with a virtual isomer of the recording venue. This is especially obvious with a bit of helpful subwoofing from a well-integrated subwoofer. I've only heard a very small handful of seedys that even come close when it comes to the whole sonic room renovation thing.
In spite of the fact that most digital music reproduction sounds more or less mechanical or freeze-dried and reconstituted, I thank my lucky stars for my nasty-disc collection! With so much great music to enjoy, the format fanaticism and puerile concerns over audiogoober sound effects that we kick around at VA ad nauseam quickly fall by the wayside once the above noted promulgation builds up a good head of steam.
Follow Ups:
Seriously, why do so many people find the odd extraneous noise or occasional surface noise to be this unforgiveable sin? Did this happen with the introduction of cds?I can think of far more distracting sonic bunyons than these, and I grew up in the cassette/cd era fer cryin'out loud.
and what surface noise there is usually seems once-removed and firmly stuck to the speakers while the music is free to promulgate outward and fill up the whole damn room.That ought to go in the wikipedia somewhere. You stole the tongue right outta my head.
I totally get it!I was listening to Van Morrison Moon Dance last night. A very clean used copy I picked up a year or two ago. The music is great and was filling the room and transparent and airy. Maybe once every minute or so I would hear a tick or two, but they were relatively quiet and right at the speakers, not out in the rooom or behind the system with the music. Never thought of it that much before.
but Moon Dance would sound great on even marginally challenged vinyl. The reason is simple, this is not music with wide dynamic swings, like much classical music for example. Hence records noise and even minor ticks, crackling, etc. is easily masked by the near constant music level; sure there's lots of stuff going on but nothing like a full orchestra blowing and bowing its brain out followed by a oboe solo, that's a *big* dynamic swing .No small doubt this is the type of musical program that people refer to when speaking of dead silent vinyl but the point is it doesn't require much, no miraclous cleaning fluid nor multi-part clean routines, to get excellent results.
The LP would have to be pretty bad to cause problems with stuff like Moon Dance (great LP!), i.e. badly scratched or having horrendous groove damage, and in those cases the LP is best tossed.
No Guru, No Method, No Teacher
That's OK, no need to hate telling me anything. You are right that Moon Dance would sound great on any format and probably masks surface noise effectively. But my point wasn't that I lucked out with an amazingly clean copy of Moon Dance, or that my experience proves that vinyl is relatively quiet. I was only giving an example that seems to confirm the post above - surface noise seems to come from the speakers rather than being intermingled with the music.
I might have taken a different sample myself, something where the presense of record noise would at least potentially cause more concern, but I'd agree a good analog setup does have a way separating the noise form the music, making the former an only slighly distracting element and really isn't unless one simply can't get past it.The exception is bad groove damage that causes crackling of the music itself, typically during peaks; and of course the bad scratch that gives the repeating and perfectly periodic (so you know its coming Ahhhh!) tick or pop. Blunt needles, horrible turntables that couldn't naviage a freeway let alone a record grove, there's nothing that can be done for an LP that has been through that.
No Guru, No Method, No Teacher
Yes! Actually, I posted a bit about this above under my "Noise" response, but, alas, was ignored! :-)I agree. If there is groove damage distortion, it becomes PART of the music, and nothing is worse to my ears. I won't tolerate it and just toss the LP. Luckily, I seem to encounter that on only a very small sampling of the cheaper used LPs, so I don't feel bad ditching them.
I am now running the DL-103 and get groove damage noise but I ain't tossing those Lps. Not when I know a smaller stylus is on it's way eventually which will make that groove damage 'above' the glide.Even groove damaged records can be kept aside until you have a vdH stylus let you know if they are really trashed all the way or not.
The stuff I have tossed, though, was usually in the $1 to $2 range. Sometimes less. And, not particularly interesting or, if interesting, not particularly rare, so I figured I could replace it.But, I'd follow your advice if it was both music I loved and some rare pressing.
that is the only one i have ever seen.Beethoven Archduke trio on Turnabout / VOX label
Pablo Casals ~ cello
Sandor Vegh ~ violin
Mieczyslaw Horszowski ~ pianoThe thing is near destroyed but I just wont fling it. I need a stylus that is surgical.
That is the major one.
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