|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
207.172.193.170
In Reply to: Denon DP- 500M or Technics SL-1210M5GSE? posted by waters on April 25, 2007 at 20:14:12:
Do a search on the Denon and you'll find less than enthusiastic reviews.
Follow Ups:
Thanks! I'm not surprised really. I was thinking of getting the KAB mod version with fluid damping for the tone arm. Do you think it's worth extra $145?
I don't own the KAB powersupply so I'm not speaking from experience. I do own the fluid dampner and its great, but I think I would have forgone the fluid dampner for the power supply. Below is an excerpt from a post by the inmate "Ugly." It makes a lot of sense to me. I would follow this logic if I were to do it over again."The problem is a fundamental design issue with the 1200's that can't be fixed with a bandaid like an arm damper. You see there are speed variations evident, it's just that they are very tiny and fast. It shows up as a sort of fuzziness or haziness on top of the music that you don't really notice until it's gone. Audibly the haziness kind of reminds me of the difference in sound between a higher quality DAC and a lower quality one. For me the point that the speed regulation may not be all that on these SL-1200's was also hit home by a visual cue. I happen to be a designer of electronic hardware for my day job and am specifically very interested in and aware of the various motion control systems in my daily life (why is this relevant?). Because I am a control system geek I noticed almost immediately how fuzzy and hazy looking the little speed indicator dots (that the speed strobe reflects off of)on the side of the platter looked even though they were staying in the same location. After adding the regulated supply these little dots are obviously less hazy looking and more clearly defined outlines. This evidence in parallel with my perceptiopn of clearer sound shows me that independent of arm and cartridge the basic platform is flawed and easily fixable for low cash outlay.
After hearing for myself what the power supply mod fixes I can't for the life of me figure out why the KAB site seems to focus on what I consider more of a bandaid in the damper mod to tame compliance/weight mismatches between tha arm and needle as opposed to an actual engineeered enhancement in the form of a more robust power supply which allows the control to operate more perfectly."
Back to my words:
I own the dampner and it makes a remarkable improvement in sound. I think the power supply would do you much better and is not terribly much more. I think its $250 and dampner is $150. If you go with the dampner or already have done so, don't regret it. Its a good value and a good improvement. I think Ugly described it best as a band aid rather than a fix. I will get the power supply eventually, I just have other priorities at the moment.My 2 cents.
Very informative and makes perfect sense. Thanks for your time on this,But I'm surprised at the observation on the speed variation he made. That's all the KAB website talk about is total accuracy in the speed domain and How much better direct drive is for speed control, etc...
You are really hard pressed to beat the Technics on wow and flutter speed variation. Wow and flutter is very evident with steady tones like piano. You'll hear a wawa kind of sound. You will not find that in the Technics. Many belt driven tables use low power motors that maintain a constant speed because they don't have the power to over correct. They settle into a steady state. That steady state will usually have some level of resonance between the motor, the platter and the elasticity of the belt itself. Technics and other dd's decide rather to take direct control of the platter speed. They muscle the platter in to a perfect speed. The error on a DD table is much different. It is much smaller but at a much higher frequency. Belt driven error will usually be slow and drawn out and result in the wawa sound. DD error will be tight and fast and result in less clarity. This type of error is part of the nature of the DD system. The technics does a better job than almost all of the other DD tables, but the power supply, according to Ugly, will help it do even better. The better power supply attacks the problem of the DD table rather than cover it up.To put it another way, the speed indicator dots illuminated by the strobe will be absolutely stable. They will not drift or move back and forth, as speed indicator dots on a belt drive may do. The Technics does this better than just about any table out there. The speed is rock solid. The argument Ugly was making was that the speed indicator dots are slightly fuzzy meaning the table is constantly searching for the perfect 33 and 1/3. The speed indicator dots would be perfectly focused on a perfect strobe and a perfect rotation. Since they are slightly fuzzy, the rotation is probably not perfect. The better power supply gives the motor better power to catch up the timing system.
Anway, the Technics is a great table and a great value. I can vouch for the arm dampener. I can't vouch for the power supply because I've never heard it, but it makes more sense to me than the arm dampener. If I had it to do over, I would go for the power supply first. Don't get me wrong, the arm dampener will easily add $150 of better sound to your table. I don't think you can go wrong either way. But Ugly has me believing the arm dampener is a bandaid.
Truly great information! That puts it all in a proper perspective. So the question that begs is. Is a Technics stock table more stable speed wise than say a high end belt driven table like a Rega P9? It comes with a substantial power supply. Or does the Technics need the outboard power supply to be as good or better in the speed stability realm of things? I hope I've made sense here.
From a wow and flutter perspective, the Technics is unbeatable. Now the P9 is 10X the price of a Technics so I suspect they've engineered out most belt driven issues. I've never heard a P9, but I suspect it beats the Technics. It better for 10X the price.Out of the box, the Technics will blow your socks off. It has some very cheap and simple common upgrades that make a lot of sense, especially for those of us who like to tinker. To me, the KAB power supply makes the most sense. But don't buy the it thinking you also need to buy these upgrades. You can tinker as much or as little as you like. I don't think you can buy a better table new for 2X the price of a Technics and I'm being conservative. Many disagree. I did a head to head comparison with a Technics and well respected $1200 belt driven table and the Technics won hands down. All variables other than table and tonearm were identical.
The long & short - If you want to spend on the order of $1000 or less on a table, buy the Technics with confidence. Some people swear by the p3. That debate has been had and had and had. Just do a search for Technics and rega and you will have a few years worth of reading. The P3 sound great (I don't think any better than the Technics) but are almost 2X the price, have a small but nonzero amount of wow and flutter, use a rega tonearm that doesn't use a removable headshell (although they sound great) and to me feels poorly built. To be fair, those who own the P3 say they last forever. That may be true, but they feel like they were made of Balsa wood. The Technics feels like it was taken from the sound system of a Tank. If feels like a hunk of Lead. Here's what got me to choose the Technics: a 30 year old table that has been abused by countless DJs will go almost for the same price as a new one. That has to count for something!
The only point I was trying to make is that the most sensible upgrade to me is the power supply - keep in mind I haven't actaully heard the Technics with a KAB powersupply. Also, I simply cut a section out of a post by Ugly. He speaks very highly of the Technics. He wasn't bad mouthing them, he was just advocating his opinion for the best upgrade. You can buy the Technics, never think about upgrades and be very very happy.
I have 4 tables. The Technics, one idler and 2 belt. I think the Technics is the last one I would sell.
I just received my 1210m5 from KAB yesterday. Very nice table. It makes more sense to buy it from KAB. He goes thru a quality/function inspection, adds an extra thick mat, and attaches hinges for the table. The difference between buying local is minimum. You'll be very happy with Kevin at KAB. Enjoy.
Played it that evening and yesterday AM w/o the damping fluid just to know what stock sounded like.Added the damping fluid in the afternoon; it's a very significant upgrade, don't buy without it.
I purchased the M5G a couple of months ago. Great buy! The table is very nice, very modern look, high quality. Overall, I like it much better than my previous systemdek IIX.
I bought from KAB also. You pay a little extra (not much) but you get the thick mat and hinges free. And the service is great. Go for it. I did not get the damper, and I don't feel like i need it now. I don't think you can buy a better new table for the price.
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: