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In Reply to: Re: I am really happy with my modified DL-103 posted by Davy on April 24, 2007 at 14:04:01:
Remember that the quoted compliance on a Denon cartridge is measured at 100HZ so at 10 HZ it's may be closer to 11-12 x 10-6 cm/Dyne and should work quite well tonearms down to 9 grams effective mass.That means that the Denon DL-103 or DL-103R should be a prefect match, compliance wise, with your 11.5 gram effective mass tonearm.
JMHO, YMMV and WTFDIK?
P.S. If you are going to shoot the moon with a Sound Smith Re-tip at $250, go the extra mile and get a DL-103R. ;-)
My guess is that would give you $1000+ cartridge performance for about $550.
Nobody here but us chickens.
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Follow Ups:
That's interesting,
If that's the case then why does the DL103 need such a high tracking force? (2.5g).I know some of this is due to the conical stylus needing quite a bit of weight but I was under the impression it needs a high force because of it's low compliance and that much force is necessry for the stylus to actually stay in the groove?If Denon measure all of it's cartridge compliances at 100 Hz then the DL304's compliance (quoted as 14 x 10-6 cm) much be massively high at 10 Hz, and the cartridge a bad match with the Ittok as the arm/cartridge resonnance is much lower than I even thought, and prone to being excited by record warps. Indeed the suspension on the DL304 is very very springy and soft, and it will track at 1.2g or even less.
and that brought the sound home for the DL-103. Sound is deep, full of all those tones and colors. At less weight the sound broke apart or rather was not cohesive. VTF is 2.5; at less VTF there was a small bit of breakup on certain records in certain places ... no more now.There are no nasty anomlies whatsoever in this setup for me.
I can't talk about "what is supposed to be", only what is. There are a lot of post saying that the 12gram arm is just right. There are also many post contrary to that. The suspension on that cart is pretty rigid. I don't see it give at all when I set the needle down. The DL-160 gave a bit. The ADC gave in a lot. The DL-103 is stiff as a running board.
~ Pat O'Malley
Damn big headshell weight! ;-)
Nobody here but us chickens.
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If you add x to the headshell and y to counterbalance the total effective mass added is x + y.(x^2/y^2) which is x.(1 + x/y).From his data x appears to be 3g so assuming y = 27g (to make 30) then the effective addition is 3.(1 + 1/9) or 3.33g
Mark Kelly
Have a look at the link. I do not pretend to know what is 'right' or correct or anything at all. I just know that when I massed up the arm the sound came home.Goto bottom of page ....
~ Pat O'Malley
...I have listened to a DL-103 extensively on an Empire 980 arm (effective mass measured in ounces). The Denon works great on that arm, tracking at it's recommended 2.5 grams. An SPU sounded really good on that arm also.The Denon's compliance is not measured in a standard fashion, my HiFi news test record is not the end all in measurement either. John Ellison has the Frequencies of the HiFi News record mapped out in his image gallery I believe.
Experience with the Denon seems to tell me that it doesn't mind a heavy arm as much as a light one. It (the DL-103) did work and sound good on my SME 309 and it is a 9.5 gram effective mass arm, no added weight needed. The Denon did not sound as good on my Stock RB300 (compared to the SME), The AT OC9ML/II sounded better on the Rega in comparison to the Denon. Why (shrugs shoulders)? I dunno.
I wish I was still tight with the guy that had the Empire 980 (mounted on an elaborate granite plinth, driving a Sota vacuum platter & bearing with a string driven by a Hurst motor) so that I could listen, quiz and measure...and listen some more.
--
Al G
Born To Tinker!
so maybethere is something re the rb arms that needs to massed up for the DL-103's? Whatever ... I will look around next year at tax time for a true high mass arm for my Thorens. Which means that I will probably go for a 304 in the short run and save the re-tip for the 103 on the Thorens w/ high mass arm.
~ Pat O'Malley
That in my brief experience with a DL-013 on a RB300, it sounded better with a 3 gram weight mounted on top of the head.FWIW my Grado Signature 8MZ sounded better that way on the RB300 also...
--
Al G
Born To Tinker!
right, I added the 3 gram weight but had to add a lot of mass at the back on the counterweight so I could balance.
~ Pat O'Malley
Interesting. I too have heard that when you add mass to the headshell the delivery of the DL103 improves a lot. I will try this with my spare DL103 in my Ittok and report how I get on. I have only tried it with my Ittok in standard (i.e. 11.5 g effective mass) form with the DL103 and it sounded good. Maybe it will sound better with more mass. Maybe people who say is works fine in a tonearm with a effective mass of 12g or 8g have only heard it like that and haven't tried adding mass to the headshell?!And yes the suspension on the DL103 is very rigid indeed. The most rigid I've seen. I find it hard to believe the compliance could be as high as 9 cu.
Unforunately I obviouly can't reduce the effective mass of my Ittok for use with my DL304. I wish I could! I can only use the heavist counter weight possible as close to the pivot as possible to get the lowest possible effective mass with that arm.
the 304 sounded nice on my rb250 'unmassed'. Very smooth. Fair ammount of detail but no edge at all. No breakup, whatever.Wait aminute, I did add the TWL mod and that was on there, but it ran sweet with the side weights.
~ Pat O'Malley
OMalley, you are a sorcerer. In the tru spirit of a sonic adventurer, I applaud your attempts ! We should all learn from this !
Adding so much mass is not an instinctive move for most of us. Kudos to you and your adventure !
This is living proof that this hobby/obsession is really about proper equipment combinations, and these proper combos are not predictable. We must try and try and keep on trying...always in search of our favorite illusion of sonic reality...
Not sure what to make of this statement.....A stereo system can in no way reproduce the sound of a live event. Not in any stretch of any imagination. If this is what you mean then I am in agreement with the illusion of sonic reality.
"favorite illusion" is an apt term for those that buy a system that sounds good to their ears without regard to how the actual live perfomance sounds. I would say 95% of audio buyers fall into this camp. Maybe even more.
I applaud O'Malley because he is working hard to optimize his system to achieve the highest possible fidelity. This is an enjoyable pursuit for many of us on the Asylum. Even when we get really close to perfection I find many of us decide to make changes just for the anticipation that even better sound is available with a new product or service.
O'Malley is not a sorcerer by any stretch of the imagination.
However he does have voodoo dolls and occasionally he sticks pins deep into my back side....just kidding. OUCH.... O Malley that's just not fair.....OUCH.
just in case ...
~ Pat O'Malley
It is my understanding that after the conical stylus in the Denon DL-103 has been replaced with the Sound Smith line contact the required VTF is reduced by about a gram.My Shelter 501 MK II is a true low compliance cartridge, lower than the Denon DL-103, and it requires only 1.6-1.7 grams VTF.
I really don't think there is a direct linear relationship between stylus force requirement and compliance, per se but all other things being equal, there seems to be a relationship between stylus force requirements and stylus profile.
Yes, the Denon 304 is indeed a high compliance cartridge and would likely work well with say a 7-9 gram effective mass tonearm which there are many out there.
That said, many people here find that they can get very good results well outside the “accepted” guidelines for compliance and tonearm mass.
JMHO, YMMV and WTFDIK?
Nobody here but us chickens.
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