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In Reply to: Yes, it does, nostalgia or not. posted by cjfrbw on April 21, 2007 at 16:05:03:
i know this can start a debate akin to religion....but in my experience the idlers that i heard did certain things well (surprisingly so for the cheap investment...WHEN they could be had on the cheap in days of yore), but there was always a caveat in there (great..."for the money").they also worked synergistically in a "nostalgic" way in terms of what aspects of the recording were emphasized.
once you talk about dropping >$20k on a turntable, the value card can't be played.
Follow Ups:
The only thing still "Garrard" about a Shindo Player System is the motor/drive mechanism and the beautiful cast chassis with its controls. Everything else is tossed.
The plinth, tonearm, cartridge, tonearm wire, record stabalizer, isolation feet, platter, mat and bearing system are all Shindo and mostly hand made. The value happens to be reasonable if one understands it is no longer a vintage table. Which I completely agree- the 301 is only a "great for the money" table as a stock piece.
...and no doubt you have, given your connection with shindo & love for garrards.i think that the garrards attract a crowd seeking that value or remembering "how great the sound used to be".
thinking of the shindo 301 as a system unto itself neatly sidesteps the value question (as in, 'how could a garrard 301 sell for > $20k??')...though it's not really an 'all new' system.
i think the market in between the cost of a shindo 301 & a basic DIY garrard 301 is interesting (/scary) -- lots of money being spent on systems that can be somewhat questionable.
Do you really think that the only reason people use vintage equipment is because of issues like economy or nostalgia?I use field coil compression drivers from the 1930's, for example, for one, simple reason. Best drivers ever made. Maybe that is hard for you to believe, but its nonetheless true.
There is a thread above in which a well respected member of the vinyl congregation has essentially boxed and shelved his expensive, modern, contemporary, state of the art, well reviewed belt drive turntable in favour of a (gasp) vintage Thorens idler. Given the fact this person has purchased about the most expensive tonearm and cartridge, do you think his choice for a vintage table was motivated by economy? How about nostalgia?
I think it might be time for you to actually post some details of your system on this board. The place is in the "inmates systems" section. It would be elucidative to see what equipment you own and use, and thus the background to your point of view. In the past, you have suggested that you have not done so, being "shy" about that kind of thing, or modest about your gear. Given the frequency of your posts, let alone their content, I don't think shyness really pertains.
Jonathan
what is the generally accepted frequency response for the field coil drivers you & your friends at cogent use?thanks for the info!
I use the RCA field coil MI 1428 on two different horns (at the same time), covering 300hz to 6khz and 700hz to 6Khz respectively.In my current system, they are being used as midrange devices only.
The Cogent system uses technology inspired by the RCA driver, and extends it with a bass compression field coil driver (only one in the world) which runs 60hz to 300hz and a midrange driver which covers 300hz to 14khz. In the thread above on Teres, there is a link with which you can see pics of Chris Brady's new Cogent system, which he uses to demonstrate his turntables.
There is no such thing as a "full range" single driver horn system, notwithstanding what some Lowther owners may tell you. Certainly not with compression drivers.
As for the Oswaldsmill site, it will be coming down very, very soon to be replaced by a properly functioning, nicely backgrounded and much more extensive website, with several years backlog of events and other material.
And I stand by what I wrote earlier- you should post your system as I feel certain I am not the only one who wonders.
Jonathan
...it's all nostalgia in every case. but i have heard a number of 'vintage' systems that were more based on nostalgia than anything else.i do believe vintage designs updated to modern specs can sound great.
i also believe that synergy accounts for quite a bit -- and some vintage gear was designed when different limitations were in effect (e.g., roll-offs below frequencies where we now "expect" roll-offs to occur).
i did not mean to be so controversial, and i'll go back to discussing vinyl-related music topics which i find of more interest. my only hope is that people use equipment that is available to them and makes them want to listen to more music and more often.
my system is a mix of old and new, with a predilection for updated, older designs.
also, i tend to discount reviews; whether one individual (or many) switch to idlers vs. a great/expensive/well-reviewed belt-drive does not make any difference to me. there are stories like that for both sides. neither solution is "right" for everyone -- it all comes down to implementation.
it's generally safe to say that careful attention to detail (and often major investments of time or money) is required to lead any technology to sound its best.
i've met enough audiophiles (and heard their systems) to know that embarrassed feeling when they rave about their gear....only to listen and find it falls flat. this includes people who have spent in excess of $100K (poorly!) and others who have gone the vintage or DIY route.
(i am not implying anything about your system or idlers in general with that comment -- only to say that what people get rave about is often what they are used to. i can only assume i'm no different, which is why i'd rather consciously avoid discussing my own system. the only thing that matters to me are how big the stacks of records are that i listen to every week and put away on the weekend. if they get bigger over time, my "system" is really enjoyable.)
thanks!
(could you please change the background on your oswaldsmill site? you expect people to go there b/c it's in your .sig file....but then it's that maroon text on black. i click on it every time just to see if anything's been done. it's a quick change. sorry...it's the designer in me -- i know i've asked you before. :D)
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