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In Reply to: Re: Do Acrylic Platters, as a meterial, have any type of sonic signature? posted by Fretless on April 20, 2007 at 09:39:16:
"As the acrylic get thicker, the music starts losing its pacing energy. Every thick (over an inch or so) acrylic plattered 'table I've heard (Teres, the big VPIs, Scheu, Clearaudio, Basis, etc.) sounded rhythmically lackluster and generally unexciting."You've really got to try better speakers if you believe this is always the case for these turntables. I believe your front end is synergistic with your speakers, but compensating for low dynamic lifeless speakers and probably compromising potential overall fidelity in my opinion. But at a favorable trade-off in space and money that you might have to otherwise add.
The reason I say this is that I have a pair of new BD-Design Orphean horn speakers that are point sources from 250 Hz - 22 KHz at 112 dB/1W/1m sensitivity. They rock my house with a 1 W/ch amp and feature absolutely startling dynamics without time smearing at any frequency in that range. And my direct radiator bassbins are lacking somewhat, but they're okay.
My turntable is a Teres 255 with a VPI JMW-10 arm and a Koetsu Urushi cartridge. When I got the new Orphean horns, they excited every last resonance left in the turntable that I didn't even know existed. They had to be tamed with much effort in the suspension, but also NOT to destroy the time domain smearing distortion, or the pace as you like to call it. Yes there is pace in those Teres turntables after all and also in the JMW arms and Koetsu cartridges. It just has to be brought out with a highly dynamic horn speaker. Or, rather, to show what's really there you can't crush it with a low efficiency direct radiator speaker.
After I was done fixing the resonances in the turntable, the system is still the most explosive in micro and macro dynamics I have ever heard from any system, bar none. This is praise for the rather inexpensive horn speakers (a $5K cost plus cost of the bass bins) that Bert Doppenberg assembled. And this coming from a "lackluster" and "boring" vinyl setup.
Well if the speakers just refuse to compress at normal volume levels like direct radiators do badly, then it pays not to go ringing excess resonances around. And this turntable rig doesn't do it, so long as the suspension is carefully set up as I had to change it.
It presents music on a scale I have never heard before with real pace and OPEN sound that you KNOW sounds like real live pace, not an artificially induced bouncy ride from an intentionally resonating source. So I believe in the theory of control and mass when dealing with high performance compression driver horn speakers. If you don't it can be absolutely horrid sounding and you will be wondering why the heck that turntable is sounding so bad. That will not be a synergistic system I bet. But heck, some people like to stick their heads in metal garbage cans a smack a hammer to them. :-)
A lot also went into tweaking the horn crossover to eliminate residual resonances that these horns have. Bert has incorporated those changes. But with hair trigger dynamics like these have, you do all you can to eliminate resonances. Sorry, but in this area, almost all resonances are bad, just keep them down to a minimum.
When nothing but the sound of the master tape comes pouring out, it's an amazing experience. This has been quite a ride, and nothing like I've experienced in my 30 years as an audiophile. And I've had two horn speakers before: Oris 150's and Avantgarde DUOs. But the Orpheans are a whole new breakthrough in my mind. And they can very well obsolete your turntable. It needs to be controlled in my experience or it will just be irritating and over the top.
Just my opinion, of course.
Kurt
Follow Ups:
Thanks. Very interesting post!I do have some experience with flea-watt SETs and horns, but much as I appreciate them, I was never able to get em to work with my current room and near-field listening position, whereas my Reynauds mesh with the room perfectly, and that's half the battle. "Low dynamic, lifeless" speakers? Perhaps compared to your hyper-efficient horns, but the Offrande are the best all-around musical performers I've ever heard.
I'd be foolish to argue with the perception that your Teres is pace-y in your system, but IME, these 'tables have been downright lethargic, regardless of the other components involved, and I have a little trouble with the concept that a speaker can rejuvenate what I perceive to be a rhythmically lackluster source component, but I've never heard BD-Design Orphean horns, so who knows?
I can't help thinking that if your speakers can make a Teres sound lively and energetic, what might they do with a TT well known for its outstanding rhythmic drive and pacing ability like an LP12, Xeres X, P9, or Avid Sequel, etc.? Or perhaps a really good idler...?
Thanks again for the food-for-thought, even if it was a bit gristly. ; )
what do you think of the SME turntables, particularly the SME 30?
Sorry, I've never heard the 20 in anything resembling a familiar setting, and I've never crossed paths with a 30.I did have a chance to spend some quality time with the 10 with the stock M10 arm and a Lyra Helicon in a buddy's familiar system (I heard one with a Benz Ruby too, but the rest of the system wasn't familiar) and I guess I'm ambivalent about it. On the one hand, it was silky smooth, very detailed (perhaps bordering on analytical), "neutral," as far as I could tell, and seemed to keep the notes under very tight control, particularly the bass, which was taut, well-timed, and colorful, though it erred a little on the lean side.
On the other hand, it was a bit cool and, I dunno...business-like. I thought that the notes had their tails clipped, and it wasn't particularly ambient or atmospheric. Pacing was good, but rhythms seemed a little fussy, buttoned-down, or tight-assed. There wasn't much of what I call natural musical "flow" either; it wasn't mechanical, but neither was it particularly "organic."
Build quality was impressive, compact, and purely functional; no audiophool jewelry in sight, and overall - sans direct comparisons - I think I enjoyed it more than the equivalently-priced domestic 'tables I've heard from VPI, Basis, Sota, or Teres, but I doubt that I'd ever be tempted to buy one if a fortuitous windfall came my way; not when I could pick up something like an Avid Volvere or maybe even a Sequel for the same price.
but I wished you could have heard more from the 20 to describe it. the 20 is really different from the 10, and I wanted to find out just where your perceptions of all these turntables are coming from.I can agree with you on the 10's description. But the 20 is in a different league, and therefore so is the 30. It has a real engineered suspension/damping system that sucks vibration away and doesn't let much return (that returning part is the not-so-good part). If you felt the 20 is too sterile sounding, then I would gage that your needs for a source is more than simply hearing what's in the grooves. Maybe listening stright from the master tape with no turntable would be less enjoyable for you than having the turntable do some "processing" for you.
This is no insult, either. I like to process my sound with single ended triode amps. I think they make it sound more organic than anything push-pull, tubes or anything else.
One British reviewer (and I forgot the name of the British magazine that published it) has heard all the TT's you mentioned and thinks they've all got it wrong after he heard the SME 20. He said anyone who disliked it must not like the truth of the recording and seeks more than is there. Then he bought it.
So I was just wondering. The only TT I've heard on your list of the ones you like was the Linn. It was pretty good, but I did not know the surroundings well either to comment much more than that. I have a hard time auditioning these things in unfamiliar environments. They can all sound good to me or all bad, it's just unknown environment. The SME 10 and 20 I heard in a familiar setup at a local dealer. I've seen him so many times I know what his house sound is like and when it changes. But he only does VPI and SME.
My dad used to own an old Garrard idler TT. That was pretty good, too. It definitely had that rock thing going with it, and I don't have a clue as to why.
My experience at my home has been only with American made TT's. VPI and Teres. That's all. Teres is better than VPI for everything, IMO. I do like the inner detail and soundstaging and I just don't feel it lacking in anything else with horn speakers. With low efficiency speakers I had before, they definitely sounded *somewhat* lethargic in some ways. But until I actually get a chance for someone to put a British TT in my own system and listen, I probably will not change a thing. At this point, I'm afraid to. It sounds just right as far as I know.
Maybe, perhaps, I would buy an SME 20 if I could afford it. I think it makes it sound more like putting on a reel-to-reel master tape than anything else I've heard. There's no thinking of rhythm and pace to me when you listen to a reel-to-reel. It's just the recording and nothing more. Then send it through a SET amp and it sounds the best to me.
Again, just my opinion.
Another very interesting post, and I thank you for taking the time."Maybe listening stright from the master tape with no turntable would be less enjoyable for you than having the turntable do some "processing" for you."
I really don't know, but it's possible. I do have a lot of studio time under my belt, and there is often something dry and analytical about the sound of the master tape in a studio environment, but that's mainly because of the ruthless near-field monitoring systems involved. I've never heard a master tape in my system - just CD-R copies, which usually sound okay, but never great, due to the nature of my CDP...and the fact that they're digital copies : ) - and I've never compared the tape to an LP.
"This is no insult, either. I like to process my sound with single ended triode amps. I think they make it sound more organic than anything push-pull, tubes or anything else.
No insult taken. I like SETs too.
"Maybe, perhaps, I would buy an SME 20 if I could afford it. I think it makes it sound more like putting on a reel-to-reel master tape than anything else I've heard." and "Then send it through a SET amp and it sounds the best to me."
I'm a big fan of well-suspended TTs, and from the way that you describe the 20, that 'table in an SET/horn system would probably be quite spectacular, though maybe a bit ruthless?
"There's no thinking of rhythm and pace to me when you listen to a reel-to-reel. It's just the recording and nothing more."
I think this is an extremely important point. The whole PRaT issue is subtractive once the music is set to tape. No audio gizmo "has" PRaT, but they all screw with it to a greater or lesser extent.
OTOH, I have heard master recordings involving my own playing where the recorder tripped over some of the band's timing subtleties - and I'm in a position to know! Coincidence or not, whenever a master had demonstrably corrupted timing, it was always some kind of hard drive; never analog tape in my experience.
Got a gig tonight, so I won't be replying anymore 'till tomorrow.
Thanks again for the interesting insights.
"outstanding rhythmic drive and pacing ability like an LP12, Xeres X, P9, or Avid Sequel"Any others come to mind? These are expensive. My Scout will hold me over for a while though.
Well, it's all a matter of personal taste, so your best bet is just to drag your butt out there and listen to everything you can lay your ears on rather then relying on anyone else's opinion...even mine! ; )My personal take is that many of the Brit TT designers have the whole PRaT thing at or near the top of their priority lists, compared to the American and German builders who - yes, this is a gross generalization - seem to focus on sonic and spatial attributes and eye-candy over the big musical involvement picture, so that's where I'd start auditioning. Sadly the GBP to USD conversion rate pretty much screws us over here in the US when it comes to UK TTs unless you go demo or used.
Be that as it may, I'd give the Nott Spacedeck, Michell Gyro SE or Orbe, any Avid or Roksan, and various upper-line Regas a listen. I'm sure there are many others, but those are the 'tables I've heard that deliver good to excellent rhythm 'n pacing.
I haven't had enough experience with vintage idlers thus far to recommend them one way or another, but they certainly deserve a place on your list.
Your Scout has fairly decent drive, as long as you don't encumber it with the VPI audiophool-jewelry "upgrade" path (IMO). Play around with various shelves and supports, and if you and the Scout are going to stick together for a while, look into a cost-effective PSU upgrade.
I try not to be a slave to others opinions. Opinions though can steer one in a direction where one can verify someone elses observations.Most certainly I would audition options when Im ready. This plater thing has my attention and I'm doing the research.
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