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With my new headshell I could do a Baerwald alignment (Turntable Basics protractor) of my cart. Sound is very much clearer and it all opened up. However the cart is very much to the front with this setting. Is it suppose to be _that_ far?
Follow Ups:
I've found that all alignment protractors do not work well with the Technics. You'll find that careful use of the Technics alignment tool will produce results that exactly agree with the results using a standard Baerwald protractor that doesn't take tonearm design into account, like the one at the top of the link.The Geo-Disc is supposedly based on Baerwald, but does not produce accurate results on the Technics. You'll have to pull your cartridge too far forward and tilt it slightly to match the null point marked on the Geo-Disc. The other null point will be off. So much for "one size fits all"...
The headshell screws are almost all the way forward but there is still extra room. Also I have about ten cartridges and they are all angled the same way.
I almost want to say something like... No sh*# Sherlock... but is it accurate???
I align with the GeoDisc as closely as possible. If it's off a degree I could care less.
I'm not neurotic.
Actually, if you align the cartridge on a Technics using a Geo-Disc, you're pretty far off. You might as well not pay any attention to alignment at all. Try the free Baerwald. If you saw the pics I posted, you saw there's a considerable difference between proper overhang and where the Geo-Disc sets it on a Technics. For other tables I've owned... it's worked fine.That's what I was trying to warn people about. I saw very firm beliefs here in using the Geo-Disc for all turntables. It just doesn't work with all tables. I bought one too... Just sharing what I learned about it. There was no reason for all the personal attacks on me. I treat people with respect on these boards... but I will retaliate when necessary.
when it comes to using the GeoDisc? Yes it places the cartridge farther forward and turned slightly. But why is that wrong. That's what I don't get.
By the way, when I use the GeoDisc on my Thorens 320/2, the same happens. Farther out and turned a few degrees, not squared.
It's wrong because when you check it against a standard Baerwald protractor or the Technics alignment tool... Your cartridge is not properly aligned...
Another stupid and ignorant post from: MR STUPID!!! NT
with the null points at the same distances as the protactor you linked.
Sorry... Nope...The Turntable Basics protractor is like the Geo-Disc. It's meant to make the job easier. It is assumed the null points are in the proper place when the line is aimed at the tonearm's pivot point. NOT ALWAYS THE CASE with all tonearms, as you will see if you check the results using a standard Baerwald protractor or Technics alignment tool on a Technics table. Did you really think turntables are designed so poorly that the cartridge must be twisted in the headshell for proper alignment? Did you really think Technics couldn't make an accurate alignment gauge after all these years? Another case of something becoming a "fact" here only because it's been read and regurgitated so many times. Why don't you check out what I'm saying... THEN if you disagree...
The standard Baerwald protractor I supplied a link to is accurate with all tonearms. Just a little harder to use... Requires some "fiddling" to get it right... but at least it's accurate...
But I'll have a go.....Firstly, the person who hasn't informed himself here is you, not John Elison.
Secondly, the turntable basics protractor does not "assumed (sic) the null points are in the proper place when the line is aimed at the tonearm's pivot point"
The null points are the groove radii at which the tracking error becomes zero.
The protractor has grids, the centres of which are located at certain radii. So whether the line is pointing in the direction of the tonearm pivot or not makes no difference, the cartridge will be set-up to produce null points at the same radii as those of the grids on the protractor when the cartridge can be aligned on both grids.
Thirdly, the turntable basics protractor is a so-called Baerwald protractor, because the grids are located at radii of 66.0 mm and 120.9 mm.
Fourthly, your rhetorical questions about Technics are ill informed, because the Technics tonearm does is not designed to produce null radii at 66.0mm and 120.9mm when the cartridge is squared up in the headshell.
Fifthly, if you think you have managed to align the cartridge on your turntable so that the cartridge is squared up in the headshell, and simultaneously so that the null radii are at 66.0 mm and 120.9 mm, then you obviously don't know what you are doing.
Sixthly, based on point 5 above, any further 'advice' from royalphil345 on turntable set-up should be ignored.
Best regards,
"Fourthly, your rhetorical questions about Technics are ill informed, because the Technics tonearm does is not designed to produce null radii at 66.0mm and 120.9mm when the cartridge is squared up in the headshell.Fifthly, if you think you have managed to align the cartridge on your turntable so that the cartridge is squared up in the headshell, and simultaneously so that the null radii are at 66.0 mm and 120.9 mm, then you obviously don't know what you are doing."
Nope again... Everything you've said is rubbish...Align the cartridge on a Technics using the included tool... cartridge square in the headshell...
You now have a perfect Baerwald alignment which can be checked by the foolproof protractor I supplied a link to (actual null points marked).
You obviously haven't tried it, because you don't yet know I'm 100% right. Calling me stupid was over the line. F you... I know what I'm talking about here. You're simply taking what you've read here or the claims of a product as "fact". For the last time... CHECK IT OUT.
Actually, I didn't call you stupid, but your response here and below does tend to lead a person to that conclusion.Regarding becoming informed on the subject: try reading these two articles which I wrote on the subject of cartridge alignment and which contain most of the answers.
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/62571.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/62570.htmlFor the record, I have aligned a cartridge in a Technics turntable, and verified for myself that the null radii when the cartridge is squared in the headshell are not 66.0mm and 120.9 mm.
The readers can make their own minds whose measurements are accurate.
BK
Using a STANDARD Baerwald protractor (or the Technics tool), my cart is square in the headshell and perfectly aligned... See?http://www.picturepuppy.com/images/royphil345/null1.jpg
http://www.picturepuppy.com/images/royphil345/null2.jpgAlthough... Aligning the line on the Geo-Disc with the tonearm's pivot point as directed... The needle lands a country mile from the point the Geo-Disc says is "correct".
http://www.picturepuppy.com/images/royphil345/geo.jpg
The Geo-Disc is absolutely worthless for getting a proper Baerwald alignment on the Technics!!! The other protractor in question shares a similar design.
So who looks stupid? Mr. Baerwald? The designers of the Technics turntable or alignment tool? Me?... It's you... for believing everything you read and taking the claims made by manufacturers about products as facts... and then acting like a rude, know-it-all about it in addition.
this is hard to do. obviously, it isn't lined up properly. you can't verify it, i can't verify it, and this is the problem with such a tool. see?
Uh...No... It's not that hard to do...
the tools that require you to line up towards the arm pivot allow for easy error. since the line/pointer on the geodisc does not extend all the way to the arm pivot point, you nor I can verify that you had it lined up properly. this, really, is where the discussion should end. as John Elison would say,Good luck
"this, really, is where the discussion should end. as John Elison would say,"No...
You nasty, whiny, bitche$ argued and argued, whined, called names etc... WITHOUT TRYING IT AND KNOWING WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!
This discussion should have ended BEFORE THAT. If you didn't know for sure, you had nothing worthwhile to add, PERIOD.
Bet your daddy's are proud of you nasty little girls... wherever they are... right???"
It doesn't take a brain surgeon to line up the very long sight-line on the Geo-Disc with the pivot point that's easily visable on the Technics. I'm a good shot... I actually gave you guys about a 16th of an inch because I knew the argument would come up. I'll give you that it is hard to tell by the photo... Very hard shot to take properly...Do you really think it's that hard??? What's wrong with all you incompetent, whining sissy boys on this site??? This product is designed so that even idiots can align their cartridge. Unfortunately, like all designs where a line has to be lined up with the pivot point, it won't work well with all tonearm lengths, placements, and angles.
BOTTOM LINE... THE RESULTS STRONGLY DISAGREE WITH THOSE OBTAINED USING THE TECHNICS ALIGNMENT TOOL OR THE STANDARD BAERWALD PROTRACTOR THAT MATCHES THE TECHNICS TOOL PERFECTLY. THIS IS A FACT. I REPEAT... A FACT, REALITY GENTLEMEN... TRY IT YOURSELF OR JUST SHUT THE F' UP. HOW CAN YOU ARGUE WITHOUT KNOWING THE TRUTH? JUST PLAIN IGNORANT AND RUDE. SCREW YOURSELF YOU INGNORANT, WHINY, EFFEMINATE, INCOMPETENT LITTLE GEEKS!!!
Mr Stupid strikes again! NT
and I've had at least a dozen tables during this time. My results with the GeoDisc have never matched the guages supplied with the tables. This includes the Shure jig that came with the VMR.
Also I cannot use the Technics guage on 8 of my 10 shells which are the Sumiko HS12 because it has 2 pins, not one.
You really should cool it. Just because someone is rude to you, it does not mean you have to be rude in return.
Take the high road and be a gentleman.
nt
The pictures don't show anything, except your inability to cut a precise spindle hole in a paper protractor which you downloaded from vinylengine.com.I don't know what the picture with the Geodisk is trying to show.
And while finger pointing in on the table: you're the one who was an ignorant know-it-all in your first post here.
READ IT AGAIN STUPID
It proves the Geo-Disc doesn't work with the Technics tonearm... unless the standard Baerwald protractor and Technics alignment tool are both wrong.Are you THAT much of bigmouth shi# for brains you can't shut up for a second and look at the facts???
The picture featuring the Geo-Disc doesn't prove anything, except that you're stupid!
Tape a 0.5-mm pencil lead to the front of your cartridge so you can compare it with the grid lines on your protractor. Then take all the same pictures, but this time from directly above so we can compare the pencil lead with the grid lines on the protractors. If you do this you will find that your cartridge must be angled inward slightly to achieve simultaneous alignment at 66-mm and 120.89-mm. In fact, it might not even be possible to get a proper Baerwald alignment because you might not be able to mover the cartridge far enough forward before hitting the end of the headshell slots. However, if you can achieve Baerwald's alignment, it should agree precisely with the GeoDisc.
"if you can achieve Baerwald's alignment, it should agree precisely with the GeoDisc."Nope... That's the whole point here...
My pics are obviously good enough to determine proper alignment or very, very close... Way closer than anyone who used a Geo-Disc and had to tilt their cartridge too... Swear to God... That stuff would not hold up at all when checked with the standard Baerwald protractor. I'm not trying to fool you.
With different tonearm designs... It's simply not possible to do an accurate Baerwald alignment the way the Geo-Disc attempts to do it. The Geo-Disc worked fine with my old table... not the Technics. Worthless to me now... Want it???
Seriously think about it... Is the Technics alignment tool that has come with the table for over 20 years flawed? Would Technics design the arm in a way that required the cartridge to be mounted crooked? Technics does utilize the Baerwald standard. Using the Technics tool and checking with the Baerwald protractor will verify this fact. Do I have to take pics of that too?
You give us bullshit pictures and refuse to present proper ones that can be easily evaluated because it would reveal your total stupidity and inability to align anything let alone a tonearm.You picked the wrong forum in which to pull your absurd scam.
?
And for what... Sharing information and refusing to be treated poorly? What a loser... Go screw yourself pussy...
*
groove
effeminate... Good for you... I guess...And spineless too...
Thought you weren't going to respond to any more of my posts???
I'm not responding to "ANY MORE" of your posts.
I'm brand-new to this thread, but caught a whiff of your charm from afar...You must be thinking of JE.
You might want to consider that we've all got good noses around here, though.
"You picked the wrong forum in which to pull your absurd scam."LOL LOL LOL
What are you going to do about it???
I DARE you do do something about it!!!
Goofball...
If my pics are a scam... Why did I ask and ask for someone else to experimerint and have some idea of what they were talking about before starting an argument??? That would be the proper way to go about it. Calling me a liar when you have no idea is just trashy and immature period...
I'll give you my address... Will you give me yours? Call me a liar then punk... Until then... Shut up sissy boy... Hiding on the net and acting how you think a real man might act... Very sad...
> What are you going to do about it???I'm going to ignore you like everyone else is doing!
> I DARE you do do something about it!!!
Okay! You just watch! This is the last response you will recieve from me. LOL!
"Okay! You just watch! This is the last response you will recieve from me. LOL!"
Finally... I hope you're serious... Is that supposed to bother me somehow???
Funny thing is... You guys will now be experimenting with this... finding out I'm right... improving you alignments... And this is the thanks I get...
Dream on!
The original question was about the turntable basics protractor which has two grids, not the Geo-Disc which has only one grid or did that slip your attention?And furthermore your rhetorical question: "Would Technics design the arm in a way that required the cartridge to be mounted crooked?" is stupid, because it suggests that the answer is obviously no, whereas, in fact, the answer is yes, if the user chooses to set an alignment which has a different linear offset to that proposed by the manufacture (the case if you opt for null radii at 66.0mm and 120.9mm).
And by the way you're the only person claiming that the Technics tonearm is flawed.
I couldn't help noticing that many people's cartridges are mounted way too far forward in their headshells on this site... and tilted in the headshell...Fixing this really will improve your tracking. Take it or leave it... Food for thought... I tried...
Well you're going about in the wrong way Mr Stupid. NT
What you need to do to is measure from the center of the spindle hole in the Turtable Basics protractor to each null-point. You will find they measure 66-mm and 121-mm. These are the standard Baerwald null-points for an innermost groove of 60.3-mm and outermost groove of 146-mm.
On a protractor where the two actual null points are marked, the platter will need to be turned slightly in order to rest the needle on one point or the other.On the Geo-Disc or Turntable basics... the needle is set on both points without rotating the platter because they are NOT the actual null points. What you're saying is not possible. Check it out... THEN argue...
These tools make alignment easier on many turntables... and impossible on some (definitely the Technics). Judging by your posts... I'd say a PROPER cartridge alignment might do wonders for your system. Why not stop arguing and get to it???...
Do you know which will give me the "best" overhang for lowest distortion: The Technics supplied overhang tool or the MoFi GeoDisc?
.
The GeoDisc aligns only to the outer null-point and its accuracy is dependent on how well you can aim its sight-line at the tonearm pivot. Therefore, you might also want to confirm your alignment with a two-point Baerwald protractor like those that can be downloaded from the Vinyl Engine. The inner null-point is the most critical IMO.
NT
Sucks being wrong... especially when you acted the way you did...
I conceed that you're probably an expert on the subject of being wrong Mr Stupid! NT
Looks right to me. Mine is with the GeoDisc.
As John pointed out in an answer to my earlier post using the Baerwald alignment there is further distance on the overhang. I mounted my Benz Glider on a RB300 and the cart. is almost to the end of the forward end of the headshell slots and slightly turned in just as John said it should be. But it is perfectly aligned at both points on the Baerwald protractor. If this is the same in your case then don't fret over it and happy listening. Nick
I use an Oracle Calibrator and my "plain Jane" 103 sits more forward than the Technics gauge as do all cartridges I've used on my 1200 I've set up with it. It actually looks just like yours with the Sumiko headshell.I'm not sure what alignment the Oracle gauge uses but all the cartridges I've setup sound better (tigher bass and more open and cleaner treble) that way.
Yes, it will need to be at least that far forward, maybe farther. There are two reasons. First, your tonearm is mounted so that a 15-mm overhang places most cartridges in the middle of the slots. However, Baerwald's alignment requires 17.8-mm overhang. Secondly, Denon DL-103 series cartridges have only 7.5-mm distance from stylus to mounting holes whereas most cartridges have around 9.5-mm. This means the DL-103 needs to be moved farther forward regardless of the alignment chosen.
nt
Here is what the difference looks like. The red line represents harmonic distortion at a stylus tip velocity of 10-cm/s.
Löfgren's alignment has lower RMS distortion, but it achieves that by having significantly higher inner groove distortion and slightly higher outer groove distortion. Personally I don't think that's such a good idea.
Baerwald's alignment has equal distortion at the three points of maximum distortion. I like that idea.
Now, these graphs are based on innermost and outermost groove radii of 60.325-mm and 146.05-mm respectively. Consequently, if you measure your LPs and determine they are different, say 65-mm and 145-mm for example, you can simply calculate a new set of Baerwald null-points for those parameters. In other words, if hardly any of your LPs have innermost grooves smaller than 65-mm, you will be better off calculating new Baerwald null-points than switching to Löfgren.
At any rate, I believe Baerwald's alignment is best, but you don't necessarily need to stick with null-points of 66-mm and 121-mm if your LPs do not conform to the specified innermost and outermost groove radii of 63-mm and 146-mm. You can easily calculate a new set of null-points using my spreadsheet, which can be downloaded at the link below.
Because the headshell doesn't allow enough movement? Do a 'as-good-as-it-gets' Baerwald or go to Lofgren?
Normally, you only need to alter cartridge offset by about one or two degrees at the very most.Give me more information about your tonearm and I'll make a recommendation.
using offical Baerwald is only a starting point. thanks.
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