|
Audio Asylum Thread Printer Get a view of an entire thread on one page |
For Sale Ads |
75.45.243.173
Relative vinyl newbie here, long time audio nut.I own 3 phono stages, a tubed Bellari, a tubed Project Tube Box 2, and a "built into my preamp" solid state MM phono stage in my Threshold. When comparing the 3 for noise levels only (i.e. cranking them up LOUD with no LP spinning or cranking them LOUD during quiet LP passages or between tracks) the Bellari is the noisiest of the 3 with an midrangy type "wishy washy" noise; the Tube Box 2 is the second noisiest with a 40Hz"ish" hum (not your typical 60Hz deal)but little midrange noise; and the Threshold is the quietest with very little noise at all at the same given volume.
Is the noise I am hearing more related to the "tube topology" vs. "solid state topology" in a phono preamp or is it more of the, "hey those are $350 or less phono stages and your Threshold was big bucks" type of thing?
I want to use the tubed phono stages (I use tube amps) but am put off a bit by their backround noise. It's very mildly audible in between tracks or during quiet classical passages. If I didn't have the Threshold, I'd probably think nothing of the backround noise but it's "one of those things".
Follow Ups:
HI jjk,
My first answer was too brief. If you are using a normal MM or high output cartridge, tubes can be pretty quiet and work very well because of the relatively low gain they can operate at. I speaking of hiss not hum. Hum should be essentially zero.However, low to medium output MC cartridges are a different story. In this case tubes are extremly noise challanged and very few can be called quiet. In my system I have an all tube Aesthetix Rhea phono stage. It is very quiet but still puts out a little hiss. I can't hear it at my listening position. It is the quietest tube phono stage with low output (200 microvolts) cartridges I have ever heard. But it is not a cheap phono amp. To get performance like this you have to pay the bucks.
In general, tube phono stages used with low output catridges are not quiet and I would not have one. The Aesthetix Rhea is an exception and I truly love it.
Hum is not an issue or a problem.
It's easy to be fooled by all kinds of extraneous conditions . . . differences in gain, are the inputs shorted?; are they left open? are they terminated with the right impedence, etc.?At the worst, tubes may produce a "tube rush" (kind of a white noise sound) that transistors don't produce. Any other differences in noise (hum, buzz, etc.) has very little to do with the presence or absence of tubes and everything to do with other elements of the circuit design, the presence or absence of RFI, ground loops, etc. and the circuit's susceptibility to them.
In addition, my experience is that some solid state units exhibit a "gating" effect; that is, a signal below a certain level is simply blocked. This will produce a quiet amplifier, but at the expense of nuance and musical detail.
If you hold a gun to my head and ask me to generalize, I will say that, perhaps, a cheap (under $1,000) transistor phonostage will be quieter than a cheap tube phonostage. However, the tube unit may have less of a "gating" effect (i.e. better low-level linearity) that will produce a musically more satisfying performance.
And that assumes an equal absence of external noise sources like RFI, ground loops and even induced hum from the AC motor and any nearby power cords.
/nt\
Thanks all for your posts. Yes, somebody hit the nail on the head here actually. I just switched from an MM to a HOMC (Dynavector 10x5) which has less gain than what I had previously. This is causing me to crank up the phono stages past what I was once accustomed to. Hence, I hear "more noise" now through the tubed stages. The Tube Box 2 has an MC setting, but all that does is amplify the noise to be about the same as the MM setting (i.e. it doesn't make a difference one way or the other--the noise is about the same relative to the volume on the preamp). And when I say "noise" I'm not talking about a ground noise or "real noise" just ***some noise***. It's not like a bad ground where you have this huge buzz and are in distortion hell.I fully understand that music needs to be playing to make a true compairison, I just found it interesting that I can pretty much create the sound I hear when the stylus is in the groove by really cranking the phono stages sans music. And yes, I'm level matching my torture tests so they are all on a level playing field.
Really the only time I pick up on it is when I'm playing my LP rig L-O-U-D and I'm in between songs or in between notes on my classical LP's (silent pauses). Does it bother me? No, not really, but it did inspire me to make a post. I was just kind of curious what others thought on the subject.
I really like what tubes do, that's why I'm using the tubed phono stage as opposed to my "super quiet" Threshold. I just find it interesting that the SS Threshold is quieter then the others when cranked.
Beware of 'analog' sound...
.
OLLY
The noise you are hearing with the Project unit sounds like a faint hum. This is likely due to grounding, nothing to do with tube vs ss. What you are hearing with the Bellari is more like intrinsic tube noise, but it is misleading to do the test the way you describe (crank the volume up with the stylus off the record). Also, you are talking about perhaps the cheapest production tube phono section on earth, albeit a good one by all accounts. The best criterion by which to answer your own question is to ask yourself whether the tube "noise" bothers you while you are actually listening to records under normal conditions. If it does not, stop worrying. In actual fact, technically yes, tubes tend to be noisier than transistors in this application, but the two devices generate different kinds of noise that are not equally irritating. Gurus who know more than I do will argue endlessly on this topic. After 30 years of audiophilia, I am using a tube phono section, if that helps.
Trying to keep the RFI off a sand MC phono has been more of the problem for me.
This is a very decent solid state piece.If you want to hear music done right it needs to cook in tubes....here comes the SS Nazis to send me to the showers....
I have owned really sweet solid state phonos, but having a top quality tube phono section is not expensive. There are many class A stereophile units on sale for 500 to 1000 dollars that will destroy the tube models you listed.
If you want punchy bass and deep extension to the bass you might want to try an Audio Research PH-3 or PH-3SE.
If you want midrange delicacy then a Jadis might be more to your liking.
If you want tube magic, solid state will not come close. There is something magical about SE class A phono sections done in tubes. I want to hear Al's new Cornet II. I really respect Al and his opinions. If he says it clobbers an Audio Research SP-6 then I figure that it deserves more than a casual mention.
Of course I am not biased....not at all. Tubesforever, that's what I advise! ;-)
Forgot to tell him about your multi-part record cleaning routine which likewise is pure magic in that it produces dead silent LPs every time!
So, you turned your volume up loud, as in louder than you would use with a tube preamp ? That is not a serious test, as the responders below mention. If you hear noise between record tracks, then that preamp might be noisy. Bellari are not known as super hifi. Try a higher grade of tube than Bellari supplies, as in classic, vintage, known hifi types.
I have some suggested tube preamps that are even less than $350. these days, that will easily change your mind. First, is the PAS-3 by Dynaco. These are easily found, unmodified, for less than $200.
With Telefunken ECC83s/12AX7s, the volume control on the PAS past 12 O'clock, this phono stage is admirable, with plenty of gain.
Gain might be your problem. Which cartridge are you using ?
The PAS respond very well to power supply upgrades, if you can do that. Staying budget minded, have you ever seen a Shure M65 ?
Shure made millions of these M-65 Conversion preamps. They were added to systems that did not have RIAA preamps built-in. Their RIAA phono preamp is one of the best ever ! No kidding ! While some of us might tweak the RIAA EQ caps as installed at the factory(change the 420pf to 600-750pf)this small device blows away most, competes with anything by ARC, CJ or Luxman, and is easily found on the bay for less than $200. But, the secret is already out. Hurry and grab one ! There were some of these that actually have shiny chrome chassis. Those shiny ones do tend to sell for a premium.
There are little chrome preamps out there, from the late '60s, made in Japan. They use 6SC7 tubes, like the early GE VR preamps. Later versions use 12AX7s. Some are even stereo. They only fetch about $50. each, or even less, on the bay. With a simple addition of a 3600-3900pf cap, from the output lead to ground; plus a changed input Resistor, from 6K Ohms to 47K Ohms, these babies are cool.
Pairs or the stereo ones are fetching more and more. A very shiny pair recently fetched over $200. on the bay. But, remember, prices are climbing this time of year. You can get lucky. This hobby is all about combinations.
I used to use ARC SP3A, Lux CL-32, Paragon E, Paragon 12, and traded these away, soon after listening with the Shure M-65.
however you could sneak a "IMHO" in every now and then, helps create the impression of balance... OH what the heck, I'll just follow your lead for this once and just say it... would help you appear less ridiculous!
No Guru, No Method, No Teacher
There I think lies most of the difference.In general, tubes are inherently noisier devices but good design can mitigate most, if not all intrusive noise.
The noise level of your various preamps is probably completly irrelevant with the gain at max no program material being played. That is unless that matters to you on a personal level.
Keep in mind that groove noise is part of the medium when playing a record.
--
Al G
Born To Tinker!
Sparky
Noticed you sign as "sparky" ... are you a fellow electrician by any chance? ;)
HI Rick,
No, I'm not an electrician, or a telegraph key operator, or a fire house dog though some might argue with my dog denial. None of those things.I'm an electronics technician who, in my 45 years of experience, has many opportunities to draw sparks. And I took advantage of every one. So, I gave myself an appropriate name. But my Mom never quit calling me Jerry.
I assume you are judging the noise level for some fixed level position (volumn control) on your pre-amplifier, that's how the post reads in any event. The problem with that is that it assumes the units all have the same gain, which is highly unlikely.However in general I would imagine that tube stage *do* have more static noise than SS units. Yet that in itself doesn't mecessarily mean much. For example these static noise tests, turning the knob way up with no music playing, are highly misleading. What would the music level be were it playing?... likely at ear splitting levels unless we're talking a *really* noisey phono stage.
Then these is the question of how the static noise compares compares to record noise (for a given level)... typically record noise is higher.
Hence to judge if the noise level really does intrude on the music it must be jusged while playing music!... and then you must determine of the noise is infact from the stage and no from other sources (record noise).
Some folks however give a great deal of credence to the simple *no music* static noise test... for then just sticking with SS is probably best in the same sense that those who simply cannot live with record noise (incl. tick and pops) are best sticking with CDs.
No Guru, No Method, No Teacher
of the pre-amp, giving you more options for a final sound.
nt
This post is made possible by the generous support of people like you and our sponsors: