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Ok newbie here with Vinyl just received my new TT (Clearaudio Emotion) today along with a Pro-ject phono and a cartridge. I dont have a clue as to how to setup the TT, plus I dont even own a single Lp :( record cleaners, alignment tools, other tools, TT table and the list goes on. I am not saying that I regret my decision but for what I can see that Vinyl is going to be a PITA hopefully my journey into the new adventure of Vinyl will be worthwhile.Has anyone tried to do the switch and went back to Cd's? Just curious...
Follow Ups:
Seriously, why do people have such a problem with vinyl playback? I've had three machines in my life - a Garrard SP12 (well, one has to start somewhere), then a Rega Planar 3, and then a Linn LP12/Ittok, which has been in residence for 11 years now.My records are stored in anti-static inner sleeves (mix of Nagaoka, Goldring and Mobile Fidelity) and poly outer sleeves, I keep the stylus clean (brush and/or Magic Eraser) and I set up the turntable maybe once a year. Mind you, even that isn't supposed to be possible seeing as the Linn is so fussy and needs constant tweaking. Comedy gold!
For me, the only irritations are that I have to turn over the record, and that I can't get all the new releases I want! Other than that, I enjoy listening to the music.
I struggle to understand why so many people seem to actively want to put off vinyl newbies by making it sound like we have to walk around wearing hair-shirts and beating ourselves with birch twigs all the time. Caring for and listening to vinyl is really no big deal.
It's not a PITA, it's not a labour of love, it's not a ritual, it's not anything. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of records I've actually had to clean (I just buy second-hand from reputable dealers instead - that way they're clean!).
Cheers,
I don't clean records, either. I don't buy ones that aren't in good shape. I bought my Rega P3 with a Super Elys cartridge. I plugged it in to my receiver and the power strip, and have since just played my records. I dust them off with a brush, keep them in rice paper sleeves, but otherwise don't make an OCBFD out of it. Listening to records is so much more enjoyable, I do it 90% of the time.
For those only OK sounding recordings Cassette serves me better. I love Reel to Reel also but it too can be a PITA. You might want to check out SACD and DVD-Audio as they can get you about 80% of Vinyl’s warmth and liveliness and with more impact in the low frequencies.Good luck but don’t make LP your only source of music as you are going grow to totally hate all that is involved with playing them back. LP’s for me are special and thus it’s their highly musical sound that rewards the extra effort to play them back.
Good luck on your journey!
They're easier to play in atomic form (no ... really). Ooh, and they sound better too. It ain't the turntable, or the ritual. Or any of the other OCD B.S., it is about what's in the grooves. And what those squiggles do to one's heart. No more. No less (does this mean I have to read the thread?).
*record cleaners, alignment tools, other tools, TT table and the list goes on.*I do not own any of above.
However, I feel that a Buddy Christ is essential for any analogue rig.
Anyways, i would have never gotten back to a record playing if the *higher* fidelity alone was my motive.
Mainly I wanted to spin some dance records and figured it's an economical way to sample new tunes.
Zero interest or time for futzing and cleaning ritual.I never intended to give up on CDs as that would be too limiting for the music selection for me.
I wish you good luck. If you don't have an access to a good dealer or friends you might go through some frustrating.
But if you never owned a turntable, take it as a learning process.
You just might enjoy it.
Mrs. Olddude on the phone with her gram just as I start vacuuming some RRL from the surface of an LP...
"He's cleaning his records.....well, they don't but he does...no, I never heard of it either until he started doing it..."
Yeah, um, well.
Cleaning LPs it the only PITA associated with vinyl and that's only because it's BORING!
______________________
Growing Older But Not Up.
!
Mrs Old Dude: "He's cleaning his records.....well, they don't but he does...
!
nt
______________________
Growing Older But Not Up.
on Easter Sunday.
My sister has known me for 48 years and my nephew for 30. They know I'm an off the wall, eccentric recluse.
Well when I hit the vacuum switch which started the suction and jet engine-like noise, their mouths dropped and they looked at each other in disbelief.
My sister said "Oh My God!" and my nephew said "Sweet"!
They though it was cool and it is.
Just another reason why they know I am not like most people.
That's for sure.
So Old Dude I'm sure your wife thinks you are insane. And her mother too!
It's like I'm a junkie or something, peeping out the window to see if the car is gone, then running to the closet and getting out the RCM.
______________________
Growing Older But Not Up.
That's funny and so true.
I volunteer one day (night) a week at a drug treatment center. Apparently peeping out the window is one thing the coke/crack users all have in common.
Over and over I hear the same thing from them. When they were tweaked they would close all of the blinds. Then they would peep through the blinds over and over, believing the cops (or someone) were coming to get them.
Doesn't sound like a good buzz to me!
If you list the table and other items on the goN as new in unopened boxes there's a reasonable chance you could back as much as 70% what you paid.That seems like your best option.
I love the hands on aspect to vinyl. I love mounting and aligning cartridges and trying different ones.
I love tweaking turntables and just about everything else about spinning vinyl. Without this, the hobby side of enjoying music would be sterile and boring.
Like others I embraced cd when it came out. I kept my tables, but sold off records (and lost quite a few to girlfriends) that I re-purchased on cd. Luckily I still have over a thousand LPs, but I had twice that in the early '80s.
One of the reasons I returned to vinyl in the late '90s was because I missed the interaction I had with the vinyl side of things.
I'm a tweaker at heart and probably always will be.
As I replied to the same thread you started on another forum, I consider it a dealer's responsibility to set up and optimize every turntable he sells. You got short-changed.
Best regards,
don't get discouraged by some of the ardent hobbyists who have advanced degrees in electrical engineering or tweakers with thousands of $$ to spend. Ignore those who make you feel inadequate. Remember that turntables were used by millions of people in millions of homes and couldn't have survived if they had been all that complicated. It's great to get it right and that's part of the fun. It's really quite easy to get a turntable rolling-download a protractor at enjoythemusic.com or buy one from LP Gear and then balance the tonearm by moving the counterweight so that it floats and is level and dial in the recommended tracking force (check the net or here if you're not sure.) Then place the stylus on the protractor dot. If you'd like more help, use the Michael Fremer DVD, also at LP Gear. There are little optional tweaks (e.g. VTA and azimuth), but that's about it. Check the FAQs on this site if you have questions or ask them and don't be put off if some responses are a little snotty. There are many nice people here and they are willing to help. Vinyl is really no big deal, no matter what people lead you to believe. Remember it is about enjoying music and it is for pleasure.
Great post! I'm sure he appreciates your thoughts and help.
Common guys.. give him a break.. the guy is asking for help, and many just jump all over him.
. . . this . . ."I dont have a clue as to how to setup the TT, plus I dont even own a single Lp :( record cleaners, alignment tools, other tools, TT table and the list goes on."
. . . I seriously wonder why he bought the turntable in the first place. One explanation is that he's simply trolling the forum.
And....considering there has been no follow up, baiting for the great debate does fall into the realm of possibilities.
Henry
It sucks when people spend a lot of $ to try and be 'cool' here, and they get blasted by a bunch of blowhards. All he's lookin for is good tunes, but he's overwhelmed & underwhelmed all it once.ah shucks, i ain't that pissed, i do get to try and put his Emotion together next week. Just saw pics, its all in pieces...
If you guys pay attention you'd see this latin fellow (robert) has been asking some real basic Q's lately...he's a newbie to vinyl & to the VA.
kinda like me...
Shoot, maybe i shouldn't say anything....i might be able to grab his TT on the cheap if he really gets discouraged!
nt
Rick
nt
Dave
Later Gator,
Crank up your talking machine, grab a jar of your favorite "kick-back", sit down, relax, and let the good times roll.Eagles may soar, but weasels do not get sucked into jet engines.
maybe buy a record. Maybe play it. Maybe you'll enjoy it...A little effort can go a LONG way...
"I always play jazz records backwards, they sound better that way"
-Thomas Edison
Go buy some records. Find a record store with someone who knows something, and can help you pick a few decent selections. Pick some records you know you will like. Get your TT set up and don't be suprised if it doesn't sound like fairy dust right away. Part of the fun is setting things up. When you hit the sweet spot, it will be... Sweet! Then you will be hooked. Have fun.
You probably didn't need to start with such a turntable. I would have started you with something like a Rega -- much less fiddly.Why did you want to get into vinyl in the first place? Reading about superior sonics? Availability of cheap "software" at a local record shop? The cool factor?
For someone who grew up with vinyl and has a growing collection, an excellent turntable setup is very rewarding, in spite of the sometimes extra effort. Every time I put on a piece of music on my turntable, compared to my very nice CD playback setup, the LP sounds more organic and has much better musical flow. I find myself getting more into the music.
Even starting with a lower level Pro-Ject table would allow you to explore music not put out on CDs, and original pressings of older music. Even some plentiful LPs that can be had for a few bucks and sound great on vinyl. Tom Petty's LPs have always had great sonics, for example and can be had real cheap. Same with Neil Young's LPs too. The original Beach Boys records on the Capitol rainbow label sound really good, though they'll cost you over $10 in NM condition. You can get a CD of the same music, but I'll bet if you played a CD of Beach Boys Today! and compare it to my original LP, you'll be surprised as to how good the LP is.
CDs are more convenient, no doubt. There are times and places for digitally reproduced music. But for the times you want to sit down between the speakers and listen, LPs are the way to go. But you'll have to be patient. This is not a hobby for the unpatient.
By the way, have you ever heard a live performance on a good-sounding FM station through a good tuner and nice hi-fi? It's pretty impressive, with no tape or digital to get in the way, it can be quite astonishing. That is why there are those who swear by a great FM tuner such as those put out by Fanfare or Magnum Dynalab. In the Boston area, WGBH-FM puts out a gorgeous quality FM signal. The problem is not FM with most stations, but the compression they add to their signal for it sound best on mediocre car radios.
live FM classical, I assume from their broadcast on line.
Why would you spend THAT much money on a turntable & not own one slab of vinyl? It looks like that table sells for about $1000. If thats true... your nuts! A $200 used table from ebay or a new Technics 1200 would have been the way to go.
The choices of either buying other people's discards or hopelessly flawed re-issues is not my idea of fun.Don't get me wrong. I love everything about vinyl; the sound, the cover art, the rituals surrounding storage and maintenance, but I also have every piece of vinyl I ever bought since I was 12 years old. I'm 47 now, so I have a buttload of vinyl!
You grew up in the CD era and very likely have amassed a huge collection of music on CD. If that's the case, then go all out and spend the money and buy a killer digital rig and forget the vinyl!
You will soon discover that CD playing and maintenance has its own rituals that can be just as fun....let the pelting begin :-)
Cheers,
Me, I'm just a lawnmower, you can tell me by the way I walk....
-Ray
If you decide to keep the rig (Clearaudio does make pretty gear), get the dealer to install the cart and start hitting Goodwill and other thrift shops. It's not as good as it was 15 years ago, when I found some great stuff at Goodwill, but I still find some nice things in the thrifts (actually, here in San Diego County, Amvets is better).
Seriously, most of the vinyl I buy is used, and most of it is very good. The flaws of compromised records (discards or reissues) have become far less bothersome to me than the flaws of bad or even mediocre digital.I've got a decent DAC, but I find myself spending less and less time listening to it. And this is coming from someone who grew up in the cassette/cd era.
and kept posting all kinds of stuff now. Nice pic on AgoN, too.Then, all of a sudden, more posts and so called audio nervosa started beginning with the Jolida suitability.
I see that you posted this same question over at the gon also. I just have to ask, are you trying to incite a media divide?As in any other hobby, there are good and bad things to consider and ponder when getting started, costs, availability, time, material, location, season and many other things that escape me right now.
If you already consider all of what you mentioned as negatives and can't pass those up for opportunity to have a pleasurable listening experience, I suggest you move on to some other hobby that you will accept easier. Changing media in any source format can be a hassle and depending how you feel, CD or vinyl source can give you a headache. It is a learning curve to adopt this hobby, take it or leave it kind of mentality.
I applaud you for your efforts thus far, once you have your turntable setup, the cartridge setup and an album you want to listen to, you will decide right away if you like it, if you don't like it, you might make some adjustemnts and see what happens, if you still don't like it, you can sell off your equipment to someone who will use it.
All that being said, is there some sort of cloud flying around the globe right now sending all of the potential vinyl lovers a sign?
Cloudy here in central Illinois. But, not a cloud of doom. Less vinyl lovers means more vinyl for me. Does that sound to greedy??
Not one bit, as long as I get some too, ha!
Take the record out of the sleeve, put it on the turtable. Swipe it with a good old fashined D4 brush and swipe the needle with Stylast.With that minimal treatment, LP will bury CD.
I'm talking about black, flat round things, of course.Licorice pizza.
The things that kick the little silver discs' hiney-holes.
I still have more CDs at this point, but I don't listen to them except when I go to bed. The rest of the day, if I'm listening to music, it's on LP.
.
It's like deja vu all over again. And again.Though perhaps the question is more a cry out for encouragement than a rhetorical dissing of the hobby and/or medium? Hmmmmm.
> > Though perhaps the question is more a cry out for encouragement than a rhetorical dissing of the hobby and/or medium?Either way, I still wonder why the dude bought a turntable if he owns no records, apparently doesn't have any friends with vinyl set-ups, and doesn't seem to have much electro-mechanical gumption.
Simple - buy something like a Rega with minimal set up required, learn VTF adjustment, put record on, sweep with brush, lower the stylus and enjoy the music.Complex - buy table with vacuum hold down or perimeter ring and arm with adjustable VTA, learn and execute entire set-up procedure, wash and rinse selected LP, put record on platter, clamp or apply suction, set VTA depending on thickness of record, re-clean stylus tip, lower stylus and enjoy the music.
Do you drive your car, concerned only that there is enough gas in the tank? Or do you enjoy washing and waxing often enough to keep it looking it's best? Here's to individual choice!
PS - absolutely agree that beginners should find help with initial set up (but it will serve you to learn the procedure too).
..a learning curve. I grew up listening to records with zero thought to any particulars. I eventually had a Discwasher kit and a tiny brush to remove dry dust from my stylus.. it was nearly always wonderful and i hadn't a care in the world. Made cassette tapes galore and never a thought to a cart. change unless the thing was completely shot.Getting into it "more seriously" makes it a little more tedious and i get pissed at myself sometimes for scrunching my face up if any recording sounds brittle, lifeless, too bloated, etc. Soon enough you have your rig setup in a "default position", where most of the music gets through just great and you'll be a happy camper.
If you follow on the path that i took when seriousness took hold ;-),
you accumulate the simple acoutrement.. Audioquest brush, decent cleaning supplies, maybe a RCM and it will all enhance your musical enjoyment.Just outta the box anew, i had a pro set up my vinyl rig and all was great until something moved on my tonearm and then i thought, "sh*t, i gotta go back to this guy and get this straightned out". That dependence will largely pass.. e.g. when you upgrade your cart., maybe do it yourself as i did.. all you really need is a decent protractor, maybe a decent test record, the cheapy shure stylus guage and some patience. You'll basically master the ins and outs of your arm, learn how to gently adjust your cart (largely) without fear of f*cking up your stylus (i'm a big believer in gently holding the sucker by the mounting screws at its sides). Once you have a pretty good handle on the basice, nothing in audio will ever seem so tedious again. If you can mount a cart. and optimally setup a cart. the rest seems like cake, unless your a DIY gear, schemo reading solderer.
In short, if you stick with it and hack it out, you'll be handsomely rewarded. The joy of collecting is largely why we're all here.. To me, it's like buying a ton of great books, but more fabulous and the payoff is nearly instantaneous if you use a RCM. The internet is a great resource.. use it, this site, vinyl engine, etc.. We're all junked out on the vinyl lifestyle and here to help man.. so fire away.
You won't be sorry.. even if the sound didn't shred my cds.. i just dig records so much more. There are rare moments when you have to wait for some little part or you honestly want to take a ball-pean hammer to the thing.. but they're few and far between. Fast forward to a year from now.. when your sitting there on your easy chair, cuppa coffee nearby and some sweet tunes are making your Sunday morning more fabulous than you ever imagined. Once you really go black.. you can't ever go back!
Lastly, if you bought that nice Clearaudio table locally, you can pick the brain and get much help from the seller. He'll learn ya up a good bit. By the time that first cart. is on its last legs, you'll be more into it and ready to go through the process most of us have gone through..
CD has it's own (hidden?) set of necessary rituals. CD's must be handled carefully and the CDP laser must be kept clean. Dust eventually gets sucked into the innards of your CD player. The CD disc-handling part is no harder than the LP ritual, but to keep your CDP's laser clean and dust-free you really need to disassemble the player from time to time to service the laser (manually) with a soft brush and compressed air. Those "convenient" CD laser cleaning discs that you can buy for a few bucks at Walmart that propel a stiff brush at several hundred rpm will probably damage the laser lens if you use them often. And there is a whole slew of "CD tweaks" that many people feel to be essential for good playback (CD edge paints, CD edge bevelling machines, CD polishes, CD cleaners, etc...). The similarity between the rituals involved in CD playback and vinyl playback are suprisingly... similar! CD seems convenient at first, but it's really not so... Clean your dirty records once with an with an RCM, handle the records by the edges, dust the stylus and record surface off faithfully before each playback - that's really not so hard to do!
Cleaning, dusting, taking apart the CD player...C'mon, you're purposely exaggerating to make a point, right?
CD playing for 95% of audiophiles involves taking the CD out of the jewel case, maybe wiping it on one's shirt or blowing off the dust, and inserting the CD into the player and pressing play. Been doing it this way for over twenty years. Never cleaned a laser on a single CD player including my 16 year old Sony, and it's still purring along like the day it was unpacked.
CD playing does indeed have its own set of rituals.The closer to pristine your CD's are and the more perfectly balanced they are, the better the sound because the error correction algorithm is minimized. (In turntable terms, that equates to filtering the signal through one of those "Pop and Click" machines as well as the audible woes of cartridge mistracking).
The cleaning and balancing process for a new CD is just as time-consuming if not more, than that of a new LP.
Me, I'm just a lawnmower, you can tell me by the way I walk....
-Ray
Yes, I am serious. Check out any online audiophile equipment catalog and see all of the "tweaks" you'll find for improving (correcting?) CD playback. And part of the reason many audiophiles never bother to clean out their CDP's is because it's been inferred that CD is the "... clean, no-hassles way to perfect sound forever...". Of course, that does'nt stop the makers of CD laser lens cleaning discs from telling you need to use their products on a weekly basis... If you live in a smoking environment it might be especially important to do some routine laser cleaning maintenence. Clean your lens occasionally - you'll probably notice a difference. And if you try some of those CD "tweaks" you'll probably notice an even bigger difference...
to the punch. How about the cheap laser cleaners, what is your opinion? I also have never cleaned a laser on any machine.
so take advantage of your local resources. The few $'s spent having a professional set your table up will be well worth it. kEN
It takes less than a minute to clean my record, drop it on the table, drop the peripheral ring, and screw down the clamp. Done.I would *definitely* let a pro set up your TT and cart. The instructions make much more sense that way.
I've not bought a machine for cleaning cd's nor the fluid @ $25 a bottle, but I have for records. I can put a dirty cd into a player and push the start button and not have to deal with it for at least 40-45 minutes. try that with a dirty LP. You get all kinds of clicks and pops and then have to change it in 20 minutes.Fall asleep while listening to a cd and you don't ruin the playback mechanism like you do with LP. Ever heard of anyone who left their cd player running for three days and burnt out the laser? Probably not since it usually has auto stop.
I don't think the ritual is overstated at all. I've been doing it for 40 yrs and will continue. But I'm also backing up my LP's to digital files so that when I get old(er) and maybe don't feel as much like doing the ritual due to health, etc, I will have the music in a more convenient format. Plus, i doubt the nursing home will allow my system and 3000 records to be in the room with me.
Life has lots of trials and lots of music to help us through them.
If that's the case, your CD's must sound like total crap.Unless that's just a way of stacking the cards against the CD so that the vinyl will always sound better ;-)
Cheers,
Me, I'm just a lawnmower, you can tell me by the way I walk....
-Ray
Just some thoughts on how thoughts and emotions connect. If you believe it will be a pain, then is certainly will be.If, however, if you believe the preamble to listening is part of the enjoyment and allure, then it will also be enjoyable.
Like others have said, after set up and clean up; I can put an lp on the platter, brush it, drop the tonearm and walk away. Not much more than playing a CD. And, if you were really really obsessive about sound you'd be cleaning those CDs prior to playing as well.
Best of luck and enjoy the journey.
in high end? Why?It's not hard at all. No way. It just takes a bit of learning. Agree with HenryH, and get someone to help you.
For someone like me who grew up with vinyl, it is not such a pain. But I suspect that younger folks who grew up with the convenience of ceedees, it could be a royal pain. But the benefits are worth the trouble to me, but it is not for everyone.
It's kinda like riding a motorcycle vs a car. The car is more comfortable, keeps you out of the weather, and is generally safer. However one has not really taken a ride until you ride a bike on a 1500 mile round trip through the beauty of the mountains and coast and plains. Fantastic! Just like vinyl. But that too is not for everyone.
Life has lots of trials and lots of music to help us through them.
Then after a short while it just took over. My intention when buying my 1st TT a few years ago was to make vinyl sounding CD's, since i had a large hand-me-down LP collection i'd never heard. it didn't take long to realize I had more fun just sitting & listening to vinyl.Go out & buy some LP's!!
There is a somewhat frustrating learning curve to get great vinyl performance...but you'll learn & be better for it.
I'm avail this week or weekend to help you with it Robert...i can bring my phono preamp set-up over too, that'll be an eye opener!
matt
It can be fun in and of itself and the end result is definitely worth it.I got (back) into vinyl about 2 years ago and haven't looked back. I still listen to an occasional CD, but probably less than 5% of the time.
I'm not a constant fiddler, so once I got my TT setup I don't give a whole lot of thought to VTA, VTF, skating, etc. And I really only have to do the WHOLE record cleaning routine (various solutions, cleaners, machines, steam guns, etc.) once. I DO brush the LP with an anti-static brush and use my anti-static gun each time I play one. And I clean the stylus with a Zerodust every 5-6 LPs. But that's about it.
But, oh, the music! To my ears, it's so much richer and more "musical" than CDs. If you can, get a LP that you have the CD for and do a comparison. In my experience, I prefer the vinyl 80-90% of the time.
And for me there's the nostalgia factor, - vicariously reliving my younger days. Plus there's something more "personal" about an LP - who owned it originally, the somewhat musty smell of the cardboard, the cover art, the text big enough to actually read, the thrill of finding a long sought LP at the salvage or discount store. etc.
rlindsa - new vinyl freakThere are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats. (Albert Schweitzer)
Anything _can_ be a PITA. I'm with the rlindsa in that I don't really enjoy setup or tweaking or adusting. Thus I own a Rega. I don't enjoy cleaning records, and so, again like rlindsa, I give each lp a thorough cleaning once and thereafter give a quick brush before each play. I _do_ enjoy listening to music and (for me this is crucial) hunting down lps. If I didn't enjoy the finding and collecting aspect of vinyl playback, I don't think I would find it worth it. So, my advice is do what's enjoyable--your records will not blow up if you decide not to clean them before playing them.
the main Vinyl Asylum page.
Henry
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