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I sent off a CDR comparison recording to a variety of my favorite inmates. On the disk I recorded the Denon DL103R on a Technics SL1210MK5 vs the Grado Ref Master playing on my Rek O Kut plinth two. My original point was to demonstrate how a Denon performs on the Technics platform. It is a solid and capable performer for under 800 dollars retail and it has many admirable features that other platforms might never achieve at any price.Several inmates commented about how the Denon or the Grado sounded better to their ears. I have two outstanding systems. One in my car and the other in my home. The level of detail retrieval, the quality of the bass notes, the naturalness of the vocals, and the extension of the highs dramatically favors the Grado cartridge. It is not a close call, it is night and day better on both of my systems.
What stuck the clearest note was some comments that O'Malley sent me about how both he and his wife preferred the Denon much more than the Grado listening over their home speakers. Then when he listened on headphones, he preferred the Grado on every cut.....
When I make comments to regarding how important system matching can be to create the most musical enjoyment; this is the proof to that claim.
What you can take away from this thread is that the only thing that matters in our hobby is the proper matching of components to optimize sound reproduction in your listening room.
There is no right or wrong products in our hobby. There is only the patient practice of trying and comparing options that get you closer to where you want to be.
Speakers have their own sonic quiltwork of tonal reproduction. Speaker cables make a difference as do well designed interconnects. Vinyl front ends, tables, arms, and cartridges all conspire to make your listening time fun or dreadful.
I have found during my time of selling midfi and hifi products that there is no best speaker, best electronics, or best turntable....there is only the process of finding the best matches that work the synergistically in your listening room.
While you do get what you pay for in many cases, great sound is not always about the issue of the dollars spent on a system. It is really about matching things to make the best overall sound possible.
Another thing about our hobby is how differently each of us approaches what we need to hear. Teresa came to my apartment and said she prefered her own system. She also said I might not like the midbass bloom from her system. This is the Ying and Yang of what makes our hobby live and breathe. Music is meant to be a fun and enjoyable experience from our own unique perspective.
I plan to send out some more comparison CDR's because I really love the feedback I have received.
If other inmates want to participate please email me at jim_howard_pdx@yahoo.com. I am not promising anything other than dialog at this time.
And for those that have not yet had a chance to forward comments to me, please do so. I really find it instructive to hear all the good, bad and ugly comments about the comparison CDR's. I know every flaw in my system....I assure you of that!
A special thank you to John Elison for being the one and only inmate to point out the atrocious noise floor of my recordings....John that would be the turbine locamotive idling on the first floor of my apartment building....really this vibration is going to drive me nuts.
I really appreciate John's comments because everyone else ignored this area of the recordings and I expected every one to comment on this noise floor issue....it really does effect the overall enjoyment of a reproduced music. A quiet noise floor is not to be discounted in the overall picture of musical enjoyment.
I cannot wait to hear feedback from those that received the CDRs and have not yet weighed in on the recordings. I hope that over time, that trading CDR's of our systems will help us get a feel for what works well or poorly given any particular circumstance.
Here is to system optimizing and getting the most smiles per LP.
Follow Ups:
And I'm speaking from experience here as I record to DVD, using a DVD recorder in my main system and then rip said DVD using DVD Audio Extractor software before running said audio file through Sound Forge before outputting to CD.Anyway, what I suspect is what you are mostly getting is the tonal representation of the table/cart combo, not the rest of the system per se and that's probably what you were aiming at to begin with.
When I play back said recording on my PC, runnign the file through the integrated audo on the MB, out to a crappy rack integrated I have and a pair of 3 way mini speakers, I still get an essence of what my table as it is now with the Ort cart on it sounds like, same goes when I play said file, on CD in my main system and heck, even in my 92 Ford truck with it's stock, crappy sounding tape deck with a portable CD player, I can get it's essence, but just bairly though (it's sooo bad that stock cassette deck in my old 88 Accord trounced it soundwise by a long mile).
The point I'm making here is, given the AD/DA conversion, qualities of the various dacs and the resulting redbook CD specs which roll off any thing beyond 20K etc, we can still get a good sense of what the table sounds like.
Last night as I was listening to a home brew CD I'd made last weekend, I became aware of how clean and clear some of my tracks were that I has recorded from vinyl - and yes, I can tell the vinyl from digital tracks plain as day, for starters, every vinyl track will have some telltale signs, even if subtle that it's a vinyl track, a slight pop or click here or there, a little surface noise perhaps, that kind of thing. CDs can have what seems like an unnaturally silent noise floor and there is a tonal difference between digital tracks in general than the vinyl tracks, I think.
Anyway, I'm throwing this out there for thought.
Cartridge, tonearm wire, arm, table, and Jolida JD9A with whatever tubes are inside running out a buffered passive preamp twenty five feet through CAT5 plugged into one awesome 192khz 24 bit EMU1212 card.You can only hear the vinyl front, nothing else.
I find my DVD-A recordings to maintain the width, height, and air of the original LP. The CDR chops the head off, and the sound is a little more compressed as O'Malley and John Elison have described.
I find these comparison cdrs to be very illuminating. And they have helped me sort out some small issues with my azimuth and anti-skate such as Mosin described in earlier threads about using digital mastering programs to observe the right left channels.
This really is fun stuff...
And we have a great hobby with lots to enjoy and share with our friends here in this crazy asylum.
a crazy asylum indeed!
A while back I posted my comments about this same subject and it was portrayed as a digi/vinyl war, when in fact it was not. Back then the question asked was somewhat different (How does my system sound?) I still find the concept flawed.
IE, I might hear the 103 as it sounds in your system, played back through my system with its colorations. Still, I am not hearing what you are hearing. I am hearing what I am hearing on a totally different system. I'd guess that the interesting comments you receive are due to the fact that you are listening to 2 different systems.
You say
I cannot wait to hear feedback from those that received the CDRs and have not yet weighed in on the recordings. I hope that over time, that trading CDR's of our systems will help us get a feel for what works well or poorly given any particular circumstance.This is the kind of comment that got me on the vinyl black list before because I questioned the veracity of such an idea. Again I'll ask the question. How can listening to a recording of your system with all its colorations over my system with its colorations tell me what your system sounds like? I may be able to gather some info about how your table/arm/cartridge might sound, but even THAT is skewed by the colorations of your system which are transferred into the recording.
Then we have the problem of copy and its problems. The cd's that I have made copies of sounded inferior to their source/master. I was surprised by this. I use good disks and never have any other programs running when I burn cd's. My computer is not that old and I have 512meg RAM. I use one of the latest versions of Nero and burn at 16 or 24 speed. But still they are inferior. It's not by a wide margin, but there is still something lacking. My wife also hears the difference
In conclusion, I think system synergy is of utmost importance. And this is the trickiest aspect to obtain. Your goal is admirable, but I think unobtainable because of this synergy or lack thereof. So you send a cdr to someone who lacks system synergy and it stinks? Is it the cdr that stinks, or the lack of synergy that made it stink? So now what does the receiver think of the 103? I think this just muddies the water and gives false or misleading impressions. Its like reinventing the wheel. We already have standardized disks and records in which people comment about their sonic characteristics. When the majority say this disk/record sounds excellent and it doesn't on my system, then I can usually be sure that I have something askew in my system that needs attention.
System synergy is also why I do not put faith in in store demos. I've bought some of the worst sounding stuff after listening to an in store demo. It worked with their equipment/room, but it sounded horrible in mine. I think you are trying to acheive an in home demo, which is a great idea. But it is a reflection that you are sending instead of the actual piece of eqiuipment. And so it is akin to looking in the mirror. But what is the condition of my mirror? Is it cracked? Dirty? Is it completely flat or warped like a funhouse mirror? And why does the guy in the mirror hold out his left hand when I am holding out my right hand? You may have sent me a great image. But how does MY mirror reflect it?
I only use my gun whenever kindness fails
"I use one of the latest versions of Nero and burn at 16 or 24 speed"Art,
That is one factor. I'm not saying it's the difference solver, but try burning at no more than 4x. It should make a difference.
You may be right about the 4x. I was figuring that my computer and burner were probably capable of burning at that speed without loss. I'll try the 4x next time.
I only use my gun whenever kindness fails
I never claimed a CDR from my vinyl front end would sound in anyones system to sound like it does in my own.I simply ran a comparison cdr of two cartridges on two different platforms just to see what people thought of the comparison. You can only hear what my two tables transcribe--nothing else.
Inmates with high resolution systems seem to hear what I hear and Inmates with standard resolution systems can often hear something completely different. Plus there are built in preferences in sound reproduction. Many prefer a deep rounded bass line. I do not. I like it taught, extended and highly detailed. Many prefer a softer high end--they do not like to hear the air and the sometime sibilant sounds that go along with this type of transducer.
I make no judgements in this hobby. We all start from some basic place and then move toward what we most enjoy. This is all good in my opinion. I enjoy sharing these cdr's for another purpose, to create a culture where we can hear a cdr of someone's front end in our own system and compare it to what we have.
John Elison being top flight, actually compared my cdr against his own cdr recording he burned. This is actually a better apples to apples comparison since now the comparison is cdr to cdr vs cdr to vinyl.
Many have commented that the real lps played on their system sound better than my cdr. Well it sounds better played back LP in my system by a long shot as well.
This is a limitation of D to A conversion in my opinion. It softens, thickens, and rolls off the LP experience that I enjoy the most.
Don't worry about others opinions on the asylum. They belong to them. I come here to learn, to share, and to experiment with friends and colleagues. If they want to tear me time to time that is fine! I probably deserve it!
hey, btw, how can you have such a high resolving system with such a high noise floor?"John Elison being top flight, actually compared my cdr against his own cdr recording he burned. This is actually a better apples to apples comparison since now the comparison is cdr to cdr vs cdr to vinyl." What? This diverges into a little bit of bullshit, don't you think? How can it apples to apples if ... ... Dude, I think I am opting out of this whole CDR thing for good from now on. It is a quagmire.
BTW, as a parting shot, does John Elison share you belief that the DA conversion blunts the copy? I think not. Oh, god, what a mess.
But John's idea when he spun my cdr was to compare it against the same songs he had burned as cdrs. That way the cd player and cables were apples to apples. The only thing different was the cdr recordings. That makes sense in an A B X comparison test. He was testing. You were listening.So he limited the variability...that is all. From a scientific standpoint his evaluation was the most closely matched comparison. He preferred his vinyl front end to mine. In comparison he has about 100 times more money invested and his CDR's sound really fine.
I do not agree with everything you say nor do I agree with everything John says.
....and I am a fun guy to get high with! Not so sure about Elison, I do not know him as well as I know you ;-).
And whats with this I want to opt out crap....This is not a lifetime membership type of deal. I will not send you anything you don't want to spin.
I trust your ears...actually your wife's ears are probably less ineubriated! I thought you might like to hear a Denon on a Technics so you could compare it to your Rega. I think the Rega might do the Denon better justice. I found the Technics just made too much wooly bass for my tastes.
KT88 will love me for that endorsement! Where has he been lately?
If you want to try a 103R I am happy to ship you mine for a couple of weeks. I think you have enough gain since you have my AU300OC!
i aint jumping in those CDR threads no more. promises promises.I am now in a dilemma. I just saw an armless Thorens TD-111 which is an idler but the motor turns another wheel via belt thus decoupling the motor from the idle wheel.
Yeah, I would love to try the Denon. I was gearing up to buy one but now i may plunk down on that Thorens.
Belt driven to an idler interface. It was a dead quiet table. I upgraded to a Thorens TD165MKII It was just 175 dollars more and I still have it! Although it is tweaked to death. I was spinning it this week. I plan to mount the DL103R on the thing unless you want to try it for a couple of weeks.
I would love to be able to try it. You never get the chance to try a cartridge to "see".In return I have 2 RCA Cleartops and Philips JAN 6189 that are that you can tryout if you have a place for them.
which implies thatpeople who don;t hear what you hear have less resolving systems which then diverges into all kinds of back and forth.I find the CDR burning/testing thing flawed. For all the resons that were mentioned by artemus.
I did it because you asked me to and really to see what was up with it.
You can send me your cartridges and that would be a fair test. :-)
BTW, if there is an admitted limitation to DA conversion then the whole shooting match falls on it's own lights. It may be interesting to a test like this but it really means nothing.
My preferences are for detail in bass and topend. I also want that thing called 'music' above special effects. The CDRs show some special effects on the one cart and nothing like bass definition or balanced top end extension on either. Blame on my CDR, or my whatever. Or blame it on the CDR copying. You see what I am saying?
Yeah, I was kinda surprised no one else had jumped on that yet :)
Most home branded speakers are flat to at least 18khz. Redbook is good to 20khz. You need a metal dome or ribbon to get past 22khz cleanly.Teresa and I both have speakers that really get way out to the upper limits of audio reproduction. A decent set of horns or ribbon like technology is what creates a high resolving system.
By the way, some of the very best selling speakers in the world had a response no better than 28-17khz, and even that was a bit bumpy. They are great resolving speakers but not high resolution speakers.
Hopefully we do not flame about frequency response and speakers, there is more to frequency response than the drivers alone. For instance my midfi Kenwood and Pioneer Elite phono sections only resolved to 14khz. They were fun to listen to but the Jolida just wipes them away in comparison.
Depending upon your age, it's not likely you can hear above 17 kHz anyway. Are you sure you can? Have you measured your listening room freq response?Your explanations seem a bit condescending, don't think most folks here have a fairly good handle on this stuff?
BTW, my speakers do extend above 20K (measured in my listening room), but as I said, doesn't really matter for me.
Extremely well put.I always chuckle at threads entitled, "Arms that deliver the best bass?" or "cartridges with the best midrange?", etc.
If there has been one common thread that has run through my blog I would hope it is that system synergy is key...no one component or tweak universally delivers the same result.
Dave
there are items that DO deliver great bass or midrange, etc. Part of the beauty of a board like this is that we can learn from others who have experience with said equipment. I don't laugh at threads which point them out. I listen and if a part of my system seems bass lean, then I try to replace it with one that has been mentioned. But I don't take one persons word. I look at reviews and do the research. If "great bass" is mentioned throughout the various reviews, then I put that at the top of the list. I've built an entire system this way and so far I have been pleased with the results.
I only use my gun whenever kindness fails
"'ve built an entire system this way and so far I have been pleased with the results."Same here. I have read as many opinions as I could and found what I consisder to be a consensus on a given then went for it. That is why this is a good forum.
So it is a consensus guess on symetry that I am aiming for? Anyway, with a little reading you can sift through the choices and come out on top.
Tubes, however, you have to try first hand. :-( that can be expensive. Which it is a good reason to find a vendor who will tka ehtme back and allow you to try 'em out. A few AA sponsors do this.
particular to bass, for instance, word was out that a dropped counterweight for the Rega type arm delivered better bass. The consensus was large and synergy was a given and it worked.
Another source that was quite helpful was audio review. Obviously audiogon was also a big help. Considering that audio dealers are quite scarce in many parts of the country, these forums are an invaluable resource. But you do have to learn to read the reviews and do your homework. It sounds like we're on the same page
I only use my gun whenever kindness fails
i guess the noise floor is something that i accept easily and don't get bothered about. Noise floor on my system is a non-issue but there is one or two CDRs taht I have received that have a wee bit of hum and noise. I accept it.The biggest thing about that CD is the sound of how compressed it was against live vinyl. I was a real joke. So either the noise floor is really really affecting those recordings or ... ahh, I'm not going there. :-)
Hi tubesforever,Your point is very well put across.
There is no best speaker etc, just how well matched components are put together and how well these components interact in a particular sound room. A system that sounds perfect in a acoustically damped room is likely to sound terribly bright in another bare room.
I feel also that very few of us 'audiophiles' look for a purely flat sound....we all tend to like something emphasized in the music, be it soundstage, or lushness, or detail, or PRAT, but these tend to be colorations in the sound.
So we're all searching for our version of audio nirvana, but one person's nirvana is not necessarily someone else's nirvana.
My 2 (not very well put across) cents.
I was searching forf speakers a few years back and tried a number of them and was returing baby mags and the guy was just disgusted with me and said, "Here, take the discontinued Dalqhuist 10's". They were worth more than the money I had originally put down and the store was actually going out of business so ....
I took them home and thought what nis the big deal, they don't sound kikme anything. I was waiting for them to make a big splash boom bang, but they just played. It became clear that were so neutral as to let the music 'come thru' as they say. They were ugly, though, with cages on top, etc, and the bass was so good and the baby came, that i had to get rid of them!!!! I had to get rid of them!!!! I am still traumatized. that wife! oh, boo hoo.I am not sure that the Paradigms I now have approach the neutral presentation that they had. Could be that i am overly romantic on the issue. But once you hear and realize what neutral is it is hard not to think about how other speakers are coloring the sound and the Paradigms are colring, no doubt. I like it but there is no doubt.
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